Toad

Agreed, rarely join forums these days, Reddit is just convenient. It's a much smarter way of working, tip.it I've been using before the creation date of this account it actually went down for a couple months before it reopened. Tip.it is a part of my RuneScape identity, but now people would rather watch Netflix, play on their smartphone it's not about strictly sitting down and just dedicating everything to RuneScape. RuneScape is an afk-game and tool these days for people, I'm sure cookie-clicker games have as many players as RuneScape it's the same accumulation mechanics but social and much more content but it persists. People will be saying in future what happened to Reddit, what happened to SmartTVs technology moves on.

That's pretty neat!

Hi Andrew, I quit the game years ago but I don't mind sharing my thoughts. Positives: * Made some great friends * Helped me through my teenage years and into my early adult life * Gave my life order and structure * Helped me plan my goals, and money handling skills for life such as saving for items * Made me a better thinker and analyst * Helped me better socially, developed a sense of humour, trusting relationships and found myself as a person as a result of the game Negatives: * Got in the way of my studies in a lot of cases * Hindered my real-world development * Always ended up playing more then I should have allocated to the game * Placed it over more-important real life tasks I'd recommend supplementing your study with this Ted-Talks: https://www.ted.com/talks/gabe_zichermann_how_games_make_kids_smarter There's tangible benefits with gaming and he talks about Generation-G, I do think RuneScape made me better as a person. I do think there's a correlation as he speaks about in that video too. there's a lot I could write here for your study about how I maybe evolved over the years but then you have quantitative research and not qualitative and I'm not sure which approach you are condoning in your study. Best of luck!

I think Reddit is more accessible as some have said. Sadly as new players come to RuneScape they'll use Reddit or RSW as wikipedia and reddit are two universal sites that everybody generally uses. Just as people would rather tweet about an update than discuss it on a forum at times, social media has changed completely. It's sad but it's just how it is.

It's good but it's not quite Mr Toad

Some great points Veiva, I was reading your post on the bus actually (as you do) and it really gets me thinking about the game. I do think the "AFK Culture" is a part of it though, but a large reason as you say it poor design, poor implementation. I think the largest concern for me, someone who loved the game watching it from a distance now is that Jagex will try to fix a lot of these issues with Invention. For Jagex to re-do every skill they just won't, everything Jagex does is cosmetic, they don't "tweak the formula" they'll give you a Falador graphical overhaul before they'll look at the skill system, because it's doesn't require much thinking. I think there really needs to be an "Evolution of Skilling" so to speak, it's in dire need. When I think of RuneScape skilling I think of The Sims, and micro managing a Sim to stand in the mirror to get his charisma up, that's the depth you have to a RuneScape skill. We're looking at skill system that doesn't work an MMO, you may aswell have plumb-bobs on your head. I know Smithing is getting an overhaul next year but they need to make skills more challenging, where mastery is more than an experience limit, actually being good at a skill I think should be achievable. Dynamic content is something I think is fun, one that is never the same twice and takes some form of skill is what they need to do. What are we kidding though Jagex will consider it for about 10 seconds and then abandon it because they have an audience now which won't quit because they've played for 10+ years and sadly can't quit because they've invested "too much". I think its not intended to last this long but I don't think they've revisited content to make it evolve over time which hasn't helped. They've improved PvM and quests vastly, but the skill system is completely unchanged which I think is why people just like to PvM now they like to be challenged, where as skilling the biggest test is finding something to watch on Netflix.

I would actually be alright with skilling being universally worse than combat if they made it less blatantly one-sided. It's like, combat gets new monsters with interesting mechanics and usable rewards, noncombat gets... the aquarium, which probably couldn't be any shittier if it was an actual toilet (and it just might be since you're not cleaning it at all). I mean, there was a point where skilling could have died with dignity and we've gone so far past it that they might as well rename it The Simpsons. It's what bothers me about RuneScape now, the skilling system is experience based it has zero skill to it. As the game has gone on even the "gathering" aspect is dead, you just click on a spot and you get it all done for you which hugely devalues every skill. Slayer was once a challenge, now it's a joke. High level skills should be difficult, as I said on the last page having players heat the furnace correctly, hit the weapons and armour in right place based on how the game generates that specific piece of gear. They should take judgment to do so, if there is so much money on PvM for doing things correctly and paying attention then making some ridiculous level 99 piece of armour having extracted the ore over a period of hours to make one set, and then having to smith said piece correctly without screwing it up and losing your materials should take skill. However RS is you have the level therefore its not a challenge, use bar with anvil > smith piece > alch it because its junk. Looking back at the middleages Smithing was an artform it took years to master, the reason I loved Dungeoneering in this game was because it wasn't AFK you had to judge what was coming next. it was contextual, and took some skill to do efficiently in 2011 before all the key belts etc, and skills should have those mechanics. I'd be all for Jagex revisiting skills and adding 80+ to have good GP rewards for doing it properly, as when you had DG you had the best players in your team, if you want a good piece of armour making you pick someone that you know is a good blacksmith who is going to do a good job. But the game will always be inflate the xp rates, and zombie mode 200Ms, RuneScape has the best skill system I've seen in an MMO, it's just got to the stage where it just doesn't matter because it's just PvM and the Skills are completely neglected. To me 120 doesn't matter, because it's far too easy I don't think I see a cape anymore and think wow that means something, I used to respect good PvMers such as Woox and good DGers but it took something more than clicking on a resource spot and going to watch the latest episode of Walking Dead. The game has hit a point now where its a bit uninspired, and they're now targeting things like OSRS and now looking at revamping RSC by the looks of things because they need to deviate from a formula thats losing players interests because outside of the xp grind its just not interesting. Quests and PvM are the only dynamic content left.

I never really bought in to the whole 'respect' for high stats thing. It's the nature of pretty much any game that the end game is what its all about and that as a game matures ways of reaching the end-game for each individual facet gets easier because otherwise the game would just get longer and longer in terms of reaching the end game and you'd lose all interest for new players who can never hope to get there. I mean jeeze could you imagine how butt-hurt I'd be if I cared about the respect when I did cooking before cook-x and before skillcapes? I went from having an epically rare stat that barely anyone trained very high to something everyone and their mum gets cause its super easy to buy and get a cape for. I had 99 cook pre cook-x too, and it wasn't hard back then either, the reality was back before cook-x people just fished the food a large number of people "traded raw for cooked" because they didn't want to burn sharks or didn't want to waste time cooking as they wanted to go and pvm or pk, cooking was never a rare skill because even by 2004 standards it was 200k xp per hour. Agree on that point, but my advice to anybody with RuneScape is if you want to max and you don't enjoy skilling, quit for 5 years and then come back, it's 10 times easier the methods available now are just so easy RuneSpan for instance, Slayer now under EoC is ridiculous, all the Prifdinnas content, I'm sure Invention this year will boost it further. Which is sort of the point. I wouldn't expect new players to know about the metagame, and the game honestly doesn't have much going for it outside of the accomplishment hunt... Anyone who joins the community is going to end up reading about how nothing they do will matter until the 120-200m range, so there's basically no sense of accomplishment until VERY far in your playing career. And even those will get less noteworthy as time goes on, kind of how maxing is less an achievement and more an obligation. I mean, that kind of thing is fine, I just wish we'd stop pretending the race has appeal for anyone that's not already deep into the game. Like, they hyped the hell out of the 99/120/200m race when Divination came out, but the skill itself is not particularly engaging or rewarding even by Runescape's standards. Agreed, but the Metagame you learn from other players as you do any other game. I agree in some regards with Maxing but there's no real perk of having maxed, besides a completionists cape for PvM. There's no gear that requires 99 attack and 99 cooking is there? so maxing combat is necessary but are the other skils? not really, most skills once you max you don't go back to them, and a lot of content in rs is pointless, let's be honest they produce content to "fill-gaps", but is the content relevant to the game? not really. Tell me what use are Chompy Birds if it wasn't for trimmed comp cape? that content was long dead, same with challenge scrolls, even PvM in rs everyone does the same because it's most efficient. Tell me this if it wasn't for a list saying "the cape requires this" would you do it, the answer is an empathic no. I feel like Jagex missed "individualism" when it comes to PvM look at other MMOs they have "Builds" where you go down a build route and you suddenly focus on one area to be good at, RS it's ok put this in your action bar smash 1-9 keys on your keyboard rinse and repeat. Wouldn't it have been lovely to build yourself to absorb damage for a team and help others, or to go raw DPS and you could change those builds if you desired, but actually be an individual and a core component in your team instead of "man you need to put this in your bar and use exactly as I have", everybody is the same, everybody does the same content, everybody cuts the same logs... see my point? nobody is an individual in rs. Because of the flawed combat mechanics in RS nobody team pvms anymore, you can afk at godwars all day, its actually quite sad to see that, you don't require a team, cooperating anymore and if you could have some kind of diverse system where you compliment each other it would be great. But this is the design of the game now and they've missed the boat so to speak, I used to love team bosses and there's none of that now, nobody tanking a boss or nobody focusing on one style instead everybody does the same so, we don't need a team essentially. The social aspect is gone in that regard, which used to be a huge perk of PvM. I agree with your point here ALG: This is the issue with me for RuneScape content, other games traditionally have a 3 month release window or so, where all content adds something to the game that's relevant. With RuneScape you get content that adds nothing, a minigame that's going to be dead in 2 weeks. Look at Trouble Brewing (I forget the name it's been years) what does Trouble brewing do to RuneScape that's relevant? it's pointless, people go there to unlock a song nothing more. You have minigames that give nothing to the game, skilling content that they add such as useless potions with no use and nobody ever makes, fish that nobody will ever use, the list is endless. Divination like you said, to me that's RuneSpan with different animations, I'm 1 Divination and haven't played in 4 years now because I just look at it and I think what is it adding to the game? the answer is nothing. They produce a skill with no relevance to the game, Invention sounds ok, but I fear it'll really hit the economy hard with some of their proposals. the 50/50 item duper, the breaking things down at alch value, it's seriously going to cause problems. The issue for me with RuneScape now is Progression, when I played the xp was slower tedious, so you'd get to 40 attack in 2001 and you'd think "Great I can use Rune now" or you'd go in 2004 tiers of "Green d'hide body, blue, red, yes 70 range, I can use black now" and youd' see people back then with 70 range and it'd be somewhat of a milestone. The best ranging armour, highly relevant within the game, only the best crafters then (even at 70) were hard to find, even making a glory amulet out of a dragonstone you would have to hunt for. XP measures everything within RuneScape, but wouldn't it be fun to have content where it was skill based? It was fueled by player made items, now it's monster dropped items, the player no longer matters. In 2015 players are nothing more than XP grinding machines and Monster farmers. everything else is irrelevant. Do people mine ore to smith for themselves anymore? or do they just go out and mine for xp and dump the ore on the floor, or bank it then sell it at whatever price they can get? the whole culture of the game has shifted and that's sadly the way it has gone. I think the whole ethos of the game has changed where gratification comes from a cape now, and it's 120 not 99 anymore, but those little milestones along the way that used to be a pretty big deal are gone, these little cookie crumbs that used to reward and mean something don't get people excited. I think skilling should be as important as PVM personally, I think people with 120 smithing, the rebalance next year should be relevant which is a good sign if they execute it right, even if like Artisans Smithing you have to hit the swords in the right area to make the perfect one, and if not you 10M GP materials are gone basically rewards skilled players, and also takes GP out of the game if you screw it up (where you have 5 seconds to make the right choice or its gone), it should reward skilled players and people that bother to learn to be a good blacksmith. Have the furnace at the right temperature, cool it in the right time, hit the piece of weapon in the right area, the same goes for high level potions, mixing at the right times and so on. Reward good players within a skill for doing something rather than just promoting AFK culture. XP measures everything within RuneScape, but wouldn't it be fun to have content where it was skill based? finding the right route to Fish the perfect Fish, instead of the spot is always here, we're just reaching a point in the game where players don't care about what they fish, players don't care what they mine as long as the XP is the best and they have to catch it correctly or it breaks the line and it's actually will heal a ridiculous amount of health. But then look at the community and the economy what is this actually doing for the game when people just mine so much gold ore that it imbalances the economy, or fishes so much whatever you fish at Prifdinnas that is untradeable? That's my two cents with RuneScape anyway, I wish the game would reward players for little milestones and be more than an XP grind and a PVM farm because the little steps along the way used to mean so much more. The game used to have so much more than just "XP rates" and now its Max or nothing, when I was last playing in 2012 and I saw "This player have just reached 99 in all skills" I thought "great another one" they are like london buses now, there's nothing desireable anymore. Even if it was cosmetic, I proposed on the HLF a few years ago getting a certain milestone should unlock a haircut or some appearences, but for skillers these days its all about a 120 cape at the end, and I personally think its sad to see. You can see just how the game is about being an XP-Slave now and PVM farming all day for gp by 2016 BTS, its all about boss hunting. Long post but I just think the game should be more about XP, it's annoyed me that this is where the game is, people need xp points for gratification now and virtual rankings, the game used to be about so much more. Now Jagex can just add a new resource spot with 40k xp faster an hour faster and people are happy, but it adds NOTHING TO THE GAME.

It's not so much the respect argument, and it's definitely not about "e-peens", I maxed just to max basically to get everything, I never took pleasure in skilling. It's more about a sense of accomplishment I think, if something is difficult to accomplish it's more-rare so it's therefore more desirable. I'd say now the game it's definitely easier and more accessible which is good for Jagex for the most part, of course the game is evolving and as for games starting after you max out, I disagree in some ways. RuneScape is different because of its skill systems, other games like WoW, Diablo 3, Destiny etc are all combat driven they don't generally have skill systems, its whole game ethos revolves around loot mechanics and upgrading your gear. The combat systems in those games are much more diverse than RuneScape (probably not Destiny) but I think RuneScapes questing and skill system is unique and also it's browser based and f2p which is wonderful, the game starting after you max with RuneScape I think it's a little of a bizarre notion. If it was a strictly PvM game maybe, RS revolves around XP though, not loot and "soulbound" items like most others, RS also is one with a fairly good economy which others don't tend to have.

Which is still around 12x faster so 120 is comparable to the old 99s, in 10 years will it go beyond 200m and will skills to go something much beyond 120? probably, it'll be interesting to see where the games goes.

Yes it's the same for me generally, too far gone to care about the game. Other gear is substantially inferior to Void at Tormented Demons. Void is also pretty much the best gear at DPS positions at the top bosses. Therefore, even considering the time investment getting Void and making money at Tormented Demons as a intermediate step towards end-game PvM, it's the wisest route. It would take no more than 25 hours to get Superior elite void (assuming starting from scratch; if you have Elite void, which a returning PvMer would very likely have, it would take no more than 12 hours) with all three helmets. GWD armor is useless at Tormented Demons, considering you must use at least two combat styles. The only "viable" alternative for a returning player using Tormented Demons as a stepping stone is Dragon rider, and that's only useful if you don't have a Demon horn necklace and attuned ectoplasmator (and don't feel like bringing a Yak with some prayer potions). I TD'ed in 2007 when it was released, I got claws on release but my friend had coinshare on and I think the split was about 20k each. That's like 25 hours at Tormented Demons... 8M/hr at TDS with say GWD armor and a limited familiarity with EoC? You use void at Tormented Demons (free). I'm sure Toad has overloads and access to Soul Split and the Turmoil clones. Upwards of 140 KPH is easily attainable with Virtus wand + book and an equivalent tier 80 range weapon; this equates to about 7.7m gp/hr gross considering current prices. The brunt of efficient TD killing requires minimal knowledge of EoC (well, if you don't plan on looking for efficient rotations yourself). It's actually excruciatingly easy to remember the rotations. For dual wield range, it's simply Needle Strike and then one of Shadow Tendrils / Snap Shot / Bombardment (in that order of priority; whichever better one is off cool down, use it). If you use two-handed range, simply replace Needle Strike with Dazing Shot. For dual wield magic, it's slightly more complex: prioritize Concentrated Blast and Wild Magic over Asphyxiate and Wrack. In either case, you wait for the first hit to land (Concentrated Blast or Asphyxiate) and then use the second ability noted. Two-hand magic is worthless because of some bizarre delay with Wild Magic; don't use it. After each rotation, switch ability bars, change prayers, and equip your new weapon(s) and helm. You shouldn't wait to even see if you actually dealt enough damage; maybe twice an hour you'll have so switch back, so it's a case of wasting ~10 seconds an hour or ~3 seconds every switch. That's it. The majority of it simply takes training your muscle memory, not caring so much about mechanics. In honesty, people who are slow/inefficient at killing Tormented Demons and complain about gear switching are simply lazy. You just need to train your muscle memory; after that, while still not AFKable, you don't really concentrate that hard. I don't know about the prayers since I haven't bothered to keep up with the game, Virtus wand and book nope, overloads yes I maxed in mid 2009. The issue isn't because "I don't know how", because the RS combat system is just a copy paste job from pretty much 95% of any other MMO out there, and with RS the gear system is not diverse like many other MMOs but the main fact I have is that I don't see any content in RS that makes me want to play. If I look at old screenshots, I miss the idea of playing, I miss the game as it was in 2001-2011, I miss some of the people but the game isn't the same anymore, it's very fragmented, the game is just too AFK in places. Towards the end I played simply becase I had invested too much time in the game, it was a chore, I didn't need gratification from a game, but I stayed for my friends mainly, I had closure from helping some friends out before I quit though. The large issue for me, although I think I was well respected amongst the HLF, Tip.it and my friends over a decade or so, was simply because I think the game stagnated and after Andrew sold the company I didn't like the way the game was heading, I saw Chris L left too who I think was arguably the best mod, and they killed half of the content I loved. Dungeoneering for instance, was well balanced (I know Chris L developed that with Tricks I believe), the XP was fine, the collaberation was wonderful, to use your judgment so many mechanics came into play and it was a very sociable experience, then later (not the original dev) comes along and adds things like daily challenges, sink holes. Even worse than that, more gates, all that DG every needed was an extra bind, maybe another ammo bind, nothing more. I think Jagex "add too much" to some content killing it off when it should be down to the original devs to tweak the content. I still pop in to the occasional RS stream, but I have no ambitions to play. I have a hundred things I want to do in real life without RS consuming my free time, I can use that time to learn a new language or further myself in my career, I think the baton is passed to the next generation of players and some of the ones that played in the days of greater demons being the strongest monster or bluerose having a monopoly of the market is dead (even before that). That's like 25 hours at Tormented Demons... 8M/hr at TDS with say GWD armor and a limited familiarity with EoC? I don't think EoC is hard to grasp, I toyed with the idea to come back I think, but I spoke to probably 30 people about playing. One was top 10 says no, one I think top 50 says the game is pay to win basically and those with money get where they want faster, others just say it's not the same game so don't bother, I think actually out of the 30 I asked, one said it's ok in moderation, and the people I actually keep in touch with that played the game all have lost interest apart from about 2. I know a few that play old school though, but that doesn't interest me as I don't understand how they can make a 2007 RuneScape then add content that never existed in 2007, or 2015, it's bizarre. It's like going to the dark ages and taking planes and smartphones. Maybe in 2020 or so there'll be something that makes the game look like worth playing, I agree some of the quests look ok in RuneScape though.

Slowly the game is moving towards 120 skills, like it or not. For me it's quite a funny sight to see, 120 I don't think is hard at all looking at training methods available. When I did Runecrafting for example it was 20-25k/h tops now what was 99 and the "respect" you got from 99 Runecrafting has been eclipsed by 120, which is it somewhere the same hours (I believe you can push around 250k xp now which shows the hours input is completely the same and perhaps easier to do so (if not lesser)) and MUCH MORE AFK. Then again I've seen it grow from classic to this and it's a new generation of players that perhaps on the face of the plethora of tablet games they have to dumb down the game a little (from what it was). I was watching Zezimas quitting statement years ago before he came back casually, he said he quit because "the game is becoming too easy, it's no longer a challenge", and skills are greatly valued now, 120 even 200m means nothing generally. Virtual levels great, but the reality is when they fill gear to 99, with high level content which has been dragged out as long as the 10 year Prffdinnas window will push the skill cap to 120 and they'll then fill to 120. It's inevitable. I have no idea how there's still joy in RS when you can just toggle on a prayer and get upwards of 600-800k in some skills, but to each their own.

See you in another 5 years then!

How is this game mode? I haven't played in quite a few years now, the only content I enjoyed were Dungeoneering and PvM are both dead? 200m grinds don't appeal to me whatsoever. Surprised if anyone remembers me here :)

I haven't logged into this forums for quite some time, and to be honest, it's completely up to you. If you want to play where's the harm in that, for me personally though, I couldn't see myself going back. Muggi has a point if it's nostalgia you want, for me though the game engine has been through so many iterations and it's hard to keep the game fresh so people seem to get disappointed I did myself that's why I quit 2 years ago now.