nadir

PsyClonz6110, i am blinded by your arguments. by the way, i haven't seen them. let me guess what your iq is that you are unable even to write a half decent argument. no, i would better not do that, it would be considered an insult. penguingeek3, you are taking their side to me, without trying my way. i tried my way and left edge bank at the same time with them and got to the altars at the same time. you say that i am wrong just because you side with others, without trying both sides. please, try both sides carefully before posing as an authority in the matter. i made over 25k nats, over 10k laws and over 10k cosmics using the abyss only to repair my pouches. i stopped making them just because i got to the point where i would not need them for a pretty long time, otherwise i would have continued to make them. i just got 84 mining and got plenty of rune ores from the rocks in wildy, and got attacked each time by revenants, and i got away with less than 1/2 hp (lvl 87 now), but with at least 12 ores before i got bored :P. it's still very dangerous with the revenants, and i can still get some ores. price drop for the ores? you mean smithers would not pay big coins to buy one of the few runite ores/bars? even if they would not, enough people know how much items made of rune hi-alch for. id you don't know, i suggest you use the guide for hi-alching this nice fan-site provides :) i don't understand how to see this autoers killing green drags is good? i sure hope you are not suggesting that i tried to kill green drags. there are plenty of people there killing them (alot less than autoers, so i can still get a decent number, but it's getting crowded). also with autoers there normal players would have a very hard time if they wanted to kill green drags (like i do, since i'm a skiller). green hides are still in demand, i can tell you that. why? because you don't need a high crafting lvl to use them, because they hi-alch for nice cash. also, now with autoers gone, drag bones are up in price, and from this will profit only legit players. ok... rs gold buyer starts with 2 mil (pretty easy to get with wc, fishing, mining) trade 1 (takes 1 minute) rs gold buyer puts 2 mil worth (even items) rs gold seller puts 2.2 mil trade 2 (takes 1 minute) rs gold buyer puts 2 mil worth (even items) rs gold seller puts 2.2 mil trade 3 (takes 1 minute) rs gold buyer puts 2 mil worth (even items) rs gold seller puts 2.2 mil trade 4 (takes 1 minute) rs gold buyer puts 2 mil worth (even items) rs gold seller puts 2.2 mil trade 5 (takes 1 minute) rs gold buyer puts 2 mil worth (even items) rs gold seller puts 2.2 mil in 5 minutes 1 mil worth of stuff has a new owner. (start now with 2 mil+ 1 mil just gained) in 5 more minutes, 1.5 mil worth of items changed owner (start now with 3 mil+ 1 mil just gained) 5 more minutes, and 2 mil (more) of items changed owner in just 15 minutes (and i used 1 minute/trade, wich is a very exaggerated value) 4.5 mil just changed owners, using the 10% more suggestion. now guess how much time it takes to get to really expensive items, and tell me that there are lots of players in rs that would not trade 15 minutes of their time to get 4.5 mil rs coins. etcetera reasons from me too why wildy has not been lately such a "great place to train" see? i can do that too >< sorry, but i can't answer to something if you don't tell me what that something is. nitram99 i am NOT against this. as far as i am concerned, jagex can make everything they want with bounty hunter. the idea is that it has to be BALANCED. too many areas - no pk-ers can disrupt the rwt. too few areas - too unbalanced, only high combat levels survive if they have equal numbers and strategy with their enemies. the game is different from the others in rs. the rogue bounty hunters are the RISK in this minigame, and they can make clan wars like in the old wildy there, so i think only pk-ers that usually worked solo complain now, but jagex stated that they are planning (ok, you might see the outcome in -gasp- 2 years, but i doubt that) 1versus1 pk-ing. i am NOT against more environment in that minigame. "risk-reward balance is just not holding up" there was a high risk for the rc-ers to lose a 50-60k glory to make a 3-4k run of runes in the abyss. i can't see there the risk for the pk-ers. now rc-ers are fighting monsters, and pk-ers that want to pk have to fight someone that is READY to fight back. sorry, the only change that i see is that rc pk-ers are faced with a real RISK for a REWARD. look in the minigame highscores. some people are already ranked there, and i admit that more people are ranked in rogue compared to normal bounty hunter. but you have to admit that rogue bounty hunter was already set, so i can't see the part where the game is different from what it was supposed to be. going in wildy usually did not involve expensive items (at least from people that have visited the multy areas or the areas beyond lvl 30), so i can't see what the big change is about. players skilling in wildy also did not have (after being pk-ed a few times) expensive items or expensive rewards. jagex stated that they are working on 1vs1 pk-ing. congrats, you have it :) it's like old wildy multy-combat. the single combat jagex stated it is going to be made. you are skulled. you have only 5 minutes until your items become visible to others. you think you can a. go to a bank b. withdraw teleport to the closest place to where you died and supplies for you to survive the trip there and back c. teleport there and run to that place. i think there are a few places where you can't get to in 5 minutes, so invincibility is out of the question. you already agree with me with your "almost". this means you can still lose your stuff. i agree, it looks that way, if you look only at wildy. but look at god wars dungeon or king black dragon or dagganoth kings or kalphite queen (ok, i'm not very sure about kbd and kq :P). you need plenty of time to get there, more than just 5 minutes, and your friends can't pick your stuff and return them to you, so the people from jagex had to help you out a little. food useless? if you die, the trip back to the place you died takes only 2 minutes and some tele runes it is worth less than 2-4 sharks? i would rather train/kill powerfull monsters instead of running around and picking my items up in front of an aggressive dragon or something else. so... your problem is that... ? you want to be able to take a p hat into bounty hunter, but you think no sane person would do it, and also you think it is too dangerous to even enter it. why is taking useless items into bounty hunter so important to you? i think you can also ask jagex to make available high lvl spells into barbarian assault, allow you to enter with all the runes, allow capes and hats into cw, but it would not be in the spirit wich inspired those minigames. i already tried it, and from what i saw, i left edge bank at the same time as another rc-er that uesd abyss while i used faery rings and got at the altar at the same time (and yes, it was the SAME rc-er and the same run). you try it. please don't tell me what other people told you, YOU try it before you judge if i say is right or wrong. i think the current system rocks. i don't want it to be changed. i don't think merchanting is a skill or a good way to make coins. because you don't MAKE coins, you TAKE from one player and that player has less to use for what he/she needs. if you want to MAKE coins, kill a monster, or just cut mages (for example) mine p ess, make nats, and hi-alch the mage longbows. ok... if i understand, you want that every 15 minutes a player can't make more than 1 trade that involves between 0.1% and 10% difference. the rs gold seller can be a normal player that wants cash, it does not HAVE to be a central hub for many bots. that player can just merchant (using the 10%) some cash or just mage logs all day and sell them, then sell the rs gold for real cash. you still ask how can he sell? trade 1 rs buyer puts in trade 10 mil rs seller puts in 11 mil 1 mil changed hands in less than 1 minute. then both of them can go back and meet again 15 minutes later. and please don't tell me players that own 10 mil worth of stuff don't want more, or that there are not plenty of them. and about the 30-days suggestion: if you are very impatient, why you think everyone else is? rs gold buyers and rs gold sellers can be patient. and if they are patient for 30 days, they can get what they want: the rs coins buyer can get the cash needed for those pray levels while he trained something else, and the rs coins seller is sure he has a buyer for the items /coins he wants to gather this month. hmmm... sounds like a paycheck to me that is good at the end of the month please don't tell me you need more examples. just think of the possible exploits yourself, try to bend those suggestions to the limit, instead of asking from me proofs. i understand you are not happy with the canges, but the suggestions have to change the game in such a way that no big cash can exchange hands with ZERO risk. merchanting is clearly one of them. duelling with just 1 player is another. shops that sell at a price that is not from GE is another, drops in non-bounty hunter is another, and finally pk-ing in bounty hunter HAS TO BE DANGEROUS, because it's the last way. if just one of them is missed, then all the suffering the others have from these changes is for NOTHING, and rwt will continue. D_V_Devnull in those trades can be items worth that much, not necesarly coins. this change is only for merchanters and for rwt's. would you want merchanters to be banned? come on, THINK!!!

Jackg243 yea, sure. this whole game was made just for players that want to pk. 1. pk-ing may be a part of the rs economy, but i do not consider pk-ing a big part of the rs economy. to get those combat levels, even the pures have to consume food and (why not?) pots. my opinion is that most of the food and the pots is used to train the combat levels and not in the real pk-ing, and that there are plenty of players that want high combat lvl but do not pk. 2. i am a skiller, and i still need food, pots, weapons and armour for combat. i make all food and pots that i need and i sell the rest to people that want to power-train combat and don't want to be bothered with gathering them (my opinion is that there are plenty of players that want high combat lvl but do not pk, just like me). 3. pk-ing is not dead. read the highscores for the minigames. all of them feature players that pk, and they have to be better than others to get in the highscores, so i guess there are at least 2 times more players trying to get in the minigames highscores. since your whole letter is based on a wrong initial statement, it makes me see it as something very...

penguingeek3, some people use the abyss just to repair their pouches (like me). others are so convinced that abyss is better that would not try anything else. zmi altar is double p in the same amount of time compared even to deat rc-ing, if you know how to do it. the only drawback is that you get random runes. "F2P. Also, before the update, the wilderness rune rocks were occasionally less crowded, due to the fact that there was more danger out there. So, smart and risky miners were able to go up and mine rune uncontested. No longer is this true. " 1. it's a very long trip to get there (~45 wildy), and you have to walk back with all the ores until ~20 wildy. that's not a fast way to get cash. 2. miners in f2p always had a hard life. 2k players max and less than 1/3 of mining sites. if i would be f2p-er, i would be happy green dragons were not a great way to train. they were always full with bots. i was there. even blue drags started to be hard to find one free. "There are many other activities that could be done in the wilderness. For example, bone gathering. When I was getting my prayer up, I went up to the chaos altar (The non-RC altar). I had to keep an eye out for PKers. (I wasn't carrying anything valuable, but nonetheless, I still didn't really want to be killed)" mention those other ways since you had nothing valuable on you, you were risking nothing. i can't see the problem. you could have been pk-ed and lost nothing, so there was NO real risk "As for your response to Imcleith... Jagex has made official worlds for these things, so they're officially part of the game. " i agree, there is a logical problem here. Jagex agrees that they are a part of runescape, then just cuts them off entirely. on the other hand, maybe they (jagex) will make some updates to fix this. but i am very sorry, as a skiller i still am unable to understand why someone would run to any altar enough times to make a decent profit, but would not do it for his/her own rc lvl. i am not against this, i helped a fried to make airs, i just don't understand why someone would not try to train to get that lvl.

solutions 1 and 2: marginal, have nothing to do with the fact wildy is gone solution 3: "great reward = great risk". that's what people were getting told when they whine about getting ambushed in lvl 32 by a clan while they were there just for a clue. "and not being afraid of be jumped by a whole gang or clan" you are in a DANGEROUS MINIGAME where you can have HIGH REWARDS, so "great reward = great risk". you can't handle it? you want target practice in a safe area with low chances of getting actually killed? go range or hally a dust devil. i hear they drop drag chain. are you a REAL PK-er? then you CAN handle being jumped on. "problem" 4 there is no such thing. there are other clans too, and that clan can be easy jumped on by a bigger clan. summary: 2 little suggestions for bounty hunter and rubbish "problems" and "solutions" ":::::: Suggestions and ideas about how to bring back PK:ing and the Wilderness as we can stand it ::::: " problem&solution 1 the day all runescapers have 500k for a gravestone to keep 5 minutes their stuff will be a bright day. until then most runescapers would not pay 500k for that, and maybe not even 50k. the whole idea with the gravestone is that a friend can keep it "alive" until you get there and collect your items because outside bounty hunter noone can pick those items anyway "solution 2" "If you still have a version of unbalanced trade real-world-traders wouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t have any intention to go into the wilderness anyway as they couldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t make the trade anyway. So that renders the purpose of the no-self-choise policy useless. " the rwt seller enters bounty hunter with a party hat. he gets killed. the rwt buyer picks up the party hat and exits. trade done. your solution? sorry, i see none that makes any sense. or rather a "-Problem 3-: No more pk:ing in the whole of the wilderness. " jagex stated very clearly why the wildy is srunked to bounty hunter. but you could not be bothered to read it. the whole idea of wildy was to fight another player for his/her items. do that in bounty hunter. you want some target practice and no risk? (also known as a player in wildy with no weapons/armour/food that is there for non-pk reasons) go range/hally a dust devil problem 4 uhhh... i fail to see your problem 4. abyssal rc is just as fast as faery rc/baloon (except for death runes wich are hardly as looked for compared to nats/laws/cosmics, and are worth less) it just has a little more danger. if you want rc pk-ing back, you want target practice. see my previous answer. sumary. a joke. wait! more jokes. without salt. not funny at all. uhhh... no jokes ":::::: Suggestions and ideas about how to keep a living merchanting market, able to give/loan and still keep Real-World-Traders out ::::: " problem&solution 1 "With this % limit if you want to trade 1M rs-gold the other part still would have to put up at least 90 % - 3k worth of stuff to be able to make the trade. So this still makes it very hard life for real-world-traders but still makes a living merchanting market. " this is so narrow-minded... using your example: player that wants to buy rs cash (from now on known as "rs cash buyer") player that wants to sell rs cash (from now on known as "rs cash sellerr") 1-st trade rs cash buyer puts 2000k rs cash seller puts 2200k (4 more trades later) 1 mil coins transeferd from rs cash seller to rs cash buyer. your sollution? another joke. problem/solution 2. i have right now over 20 mil cash. with your solution i can (but i NEVER WILL) very easy sell all that for real cash to one of my friends. rwt stopped? nope. why you think rwt-ers would not wait even months to trade the rs cash for real one? if i would want to sell all that cash, i would wait anytime. big summary "The 3k limit is just really not game-smart. There are at least 1 other much better idea for the same thing out there, this one that I present is just one of them." very funny. not. not at all. and i proved it very quick and easy a few rows up. honestly it's hard for me to decide if you randomly hit your keyboard with your rear end or you are rwt-er. Imcleith, ... why bother with ess running when you can make your own runes? are you rc pure? lol i'm 76 rc-er and i did not try it too much. i mostly made runes for my own use (95%) and i did not used outside help, except 2 times when a fried asked my help to make more airs out of his ess, and that was for a very short time D_V_Devnull "Nitram99, you have my support in this matter. These tweaks would still block RWT" see above summary(s) penguingeek3 "Many of the non-PKing activities that could be done in the wilderness (Abyss RCing, rune mining, training on monsters there, etc.) were very effective, either in training, making money, or something else." rc-ing - effective in training = lame. zmi altar is better making money - if i make nats using faery rings i am just as fast as using the abyss, but no risk of losing my glory because of lagg and skulled rune mining - effective in training.... try iron rocks. alot faster making money. - there are other runite rocks. example: heroes guild. training on monsters fire giants/rock crabs/bloodvelds is better and alot safer your point? sorry, i see none.

Qeltar, "Excessive Price Restriction" since most rc-ers that make lots of nats would keep them for sale in GE for fast selling, you would waste less time teleporting to varrock/edge and going to GE compared to repeating over and over again "buy 5k nats 270 ea!" "Inability to Buy or Sell Items Quickly:" "Right now, I could say ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åbuying blue dhide chaps 15kÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

seriously, did the author of this even read the results of the polls on runescape official site this year? most of them asked (indirectly) if players would like these (i agree that they are) drastic changes we have seen yesterday. there WILL be a runescape when the dust settles, and i belive that at least 50% (or more) of the players will stay. "they removed staking!" "they removed merchanting!" "they removed pk-ing!" they are still there, in a different form! "i can't make cash from them anymore!" yes, you can, now with real risks, no more pures versus noobs. (except merchanting, wich was silly to begin with) why so many people are happy about these changes? no, you don't MAKE cash out of any of that, you TAKE from another player. did you ever wondered why the rest of the comunity does not like very much these 3 categories? because they are in for fast cash, low risks, and not to MAKE cash (or items) through skills or just picking flax/mort myre fungus etc. merchanting/pk-ing/staking does not bring anything into the game, like these things do, but if you find gullible enough people, you can take (some of their if not all) prised posesions. now to be a successfull pk-er you have to fight real pk-ers, that are ready to fight back. scary, huh? now you can't duel anyone and take his/her posesions by claiming that you're a noob -while being a pure to keep the combat lvl down-, now you have to fight 8 other people with rules you can't control. all i say is this: you really want target practice? someone that hardly fights back in an efficient manner? try an npc. dust devils are good, and altho i never got one, i hear they drop drag chain. you want a REAL fight to prove that you are very TOUGH? use the duel tournament and stay on top of it, or be the best bounty hunter/rogue bounty hunter. to use a favourite phrase of some pk-ers that i have read alot: "high risk, high gains!". but i am convinced that they use it just to cover up the fact that they are not willing to take any risks at all... of course, they can prove me wrong and get high in the bounty hunter/rogue/duel highscore charts... "you just hate this because you don't have our and because you're not able to do these things properly!" 1. i don't care about expensive stuff. it will someday become cheap or i will get that as a drop, and i'll be able to buy it, or it's a useless rare, and i could not care less about that. 2. if all runescape would do this (example: the grand exchange) then it would stop being a profitable business. author, i agree 100% with your conclusion and Jagex decisions there. you do realise you just said 2 things that are opposite, right? if jagex loses players, then it loses money.

i don't look forward alot for anything at all this month. if i would say what i would be interested the most this month, it would be the dev. diaries (i'm very curious about summoning :D)

wrong, i used karambwan alot (1k+), it stops you from hiting

you know that there is no great difference between that and lemmings, right?

kieranread, "a couple" does not necessarly mean "two", it can mean "a few" wich might be more than just "two"

i made only 2 accounts: the first one just to play on it (1878 total level and rising :P) i made the second one when a friend asked me for help during shield of arraw and i didn't knew of the existence of the thread(s) in RSOF for heroes/shield of arraw partners. basicly it was a 1 use account, lol

helping the economy... i care more about the players. and the legitimate players are not helped at all. if you want high level fast in a skill that depends on raw materials and have the cash, then the "macros" are helping you because you get raw materials cheaper = you get there faster in my case i wanted flech 85 and i wanted to cut yews to make yew longs. i think i don't need to tell you how hard it was. for players that want high (99) wc or don't have the cash to buy the raw materials for fletching, it's bad for players that start rs and want to get some cash, it must be very hard. they can't cut trees because of the macroers, they can't mine, they can't sell the flax for decent prices, they can't sell the ess (or p ess) for decent prices anymore. it's very bad. a new player is inferior to a bot: he can't stay 24/7 online and collect those resources, so he'll be very likely to quit seeing that it's hard (and alot harder than it was for us, the players that now have a jump-start in mining, wc etc). it's very hard to be skiller because he has access harder to resources, to be pk-er (needs lots of cash for that too). if you look at the last question in the rs pool you can see how many players want to be better than someone else: more than 62% (at the time of this writing). what good is being better than someone if you just buy all? what good is for 15+% of rs (according to the same official pool) to be one of the best if alongside of you are loads of bots? it spoils alot of the feeling of accomplishment. hi, Rebdragon. because it cuts new players 95% off their sources of income. but there are going to be way fewer new players because they are going to be put off by the hardships above mentioned. this will lead in time to the end of this game because players will also leave, and without constant flow of new legitimate players, it will become haven for macroers and real time traders. Solidus_77, there is a "cost for living". if you really want something good, you have to pay for it: food to heal, raw materials, repair barrows, recharge crystal (shield, because i don't know why would someone recharge crystal bow since dark bow is better). other costs too, like buying from shops things players can't be bothered to sell (or are untradeble). yea? would you still buy my flax at 100 ea? or you would not talk to me unless i offer 60 or less? ok... i hope you rethink this when you try to cut yews/mine coal :( the difference is that it's alot harder now for players that play for short periods of time or just started recently i hope you remember this next time when you want to repair your barrows/recharge crystal item/buy food for pk Halo_2_4_U the new players still need a way to make that cash to buy those things, but their places have been overrun by macroers :( ouch! raylifes rofl i think it's very bad swordb88 there are some people that want to do those jobs. and those people are ruined. i had a player BEGGING me to buy p ess from him. i did not need it at that moment, so i declined. i think there is an inflation, but one of raw materials. brave my point of view 100%. thank you. 1alebcay there are no robots in real world that mine raw materials 24/7, leaving people without skills jobless. (nature runes can't go that up, because there are quest shops that sell them for 300 coins max ea rune scimmy won't be sold for less than 10k because it hi-alches for 15k)

to report more than 1 player ingame (for any reason) you have to wait 1 minute between reports. there is a way to report more than 1 player. read the last post here yes sadly there are way too many players that (i think they) are bots. report them? i tried that. but i think it's already beyond needing reported. anyone walking in members in lumby forest, or draynor, or south fally, even in catherby yews/flax is bound to see some (many) lvl 3 combat player that just cuts yews/picks flax for a looong time. what to report then? hey, jagex, check out lumby forest, draynor and catherby in all worlds, you are bound to find at least 10 in each world in each of those places!

the way i see it, each part sees the other as "evil". the way i see both parts: none of each part can see a bad thing about what he is defending (like i do :lol:). but that's just me :P "Play for fun, not your ego." sadly most of our real life i (i would say we, but...) cannot do much for my ego. in this game noone can tell me to cut that tree or not to cut it, to mine that rock or not. i play for my ego :D "Actually, I don't respect levels, period." i try to respect levels (except one higher combat lvl guy that called me noob because i gave him an advice and he considered he knew better than me :evil: ) because otherwise i can have no real measurement of the quality of the advices/suggestions the player gives me. but that's just me "See, the thing is that not everyone is like you or other dedicated players." oh... thank you, i see your point. i'm dropping the argument. happy 'scaping

Rebdragon, "-you haven't yet had someone make a ton of your work meaningless, alot of time spent on something that just went down the trash up untill now, did you? then you have no idea what it feels like. if you do, then you know what i mean" my bad, i thought it was implied that i was referring to real world... i mean like make a big nice novel, or a painture or w/e that you were proud of, that took you tons of time and effort, and someone came and done/said somethig and destroyed what you have done/made it look meaningless in your own eyes. "If this ruins your fun, youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re probably playing the wrong game. " the second anyone can just buy rs cash with real cash (and jagex approves this on all servers) i will agree with you on this one :) "I repeat: Way to stereotype. Maybe, just maybeÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ they play for fun too? " setting goals and reaching them yourself is the fun. setting goals and reaching them 5 minutes later... sorry, i missed the "play" part... where does the "play" part stick in that sentence anyway? you played. ok. jagex agees with real world blah-blah. ok. you suddenly meet 10+ times more people with barrage. you are no longer an elite, one of the few. "Your point being? If a RWITer wants to spend the money to get ahead, even if it means not gaining full knowledge in the game, thatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s his problem, not mine. Heck, you could call it justice if you want to. YouÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re practically supporting RWIT by saying that." those were things you need to learn if you want to understand how to play runescape and skip (some of) the "grinding". there is loads to learn about rs. "That ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅusuallyÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

here we go again... to all those who agree with real world trading: why not jagex just scrap the rule 12 and start selling characters with 99 in all skills and 500 mil in bank + 1 of each rare directly to players that want? -"because there are legal issues" i played knight online and they were selling items to players. i'm sure jagex can do this too, if they wanted to, and this way, they get some pretty nice extra cash, instead of letting others get that cash -"because it would imbalance the economy, it would insert big values in rs" i thought you claim that only very few people would buy large amounts of rs cash. if this is true, at 1 mil (and growing) members, it shoud not be an issue, and there are barrows and rune shops and crystal bow as rs cash drains (and jagex can insert more), so i think this is a non-issue -"because the average lvl would rise" i thought you claim that only very few people would buy large amounts of rs cash. if this is true, at 1 mil (and growing) members, it shoud not be an issue, besides that NEWSFLASH! players already train 24/7 and that is already rising, lots of high-lvl training areas are actually crowded lately, so there would be little difference. you claim that only very few people would buy large amounts of rs cash. there are many players that play this game for YEARS to get to decent-good-very good levels. getting huge instant rs cash (by buying it with real cash) helps any newcommer to buy raw materials and get those high skill levels in a way shorter time compared to the players that spent months and years to get the cash or gather those raw materials by themselves. examples? prayer, construction, crafting, fletching, cooking, runecrafting (do i have to explain how can a rc-er can buy p ess runer's time and get up to 6 times faster xp?), smithing now if someone made my levels in 1/6 the time i spent in rs just because he bought rs cash with real cash and done what i described above, it would make all that i have done meaningless to me. people that say this is a non-issue: -this IS an issue, for ME! -you haven't yet had someone make a ton of your work meaningless, alot of time spent on something that just went down the trash up untill now, did you? then you have no idea what it feels like. if you do, then you know what i mean -you don't care? tough luck, i don't care about you wanting to gain cash while ruining my fun, so i guess we're even here -you keep on saying that very few people want to buy with large amounts of cash. those people mean less than the players that care for highscores and noone cutting in front of the line (like me) because they are already bored with the game, they just want to feel what's like on top, then they will quit, as opposite to players that are willing to spend years to get those levels/items. i doubt people would stop macroing just because real world trading would be allowed. in fact i am convinced that alowing trading rs cash for real cash would increase by alot the number of macroers. why? because there are people in real life that do very bad things to get real cash. making 100 bots to get that (rs cash and exchange it for) real cash easier and not risk anything "Weak argument. Money takes time to earn, genius. And it's it's not like there's anything to learning to play Runescape past a 1st grade diploma." exactly how much time did it get you to learn all the map of rs? all the transportation methods? how much time to understand why a certain route is faster than another one to make nats? how much time did it took you to learn the prices of most valuable items so that you don't sell something for alot less than it's worth? how much time did it took you to find out wich smithing method is fastest to power-train? ""Blindly follow the law." Pfft." you don't like it, play another game, or just buy jagex :P. i don't like that i have to pay some taxes, but i pay them. people that take the law in their own hads are either owners of the right to make laws (in this case, jagex) or want to be rebels and end up breaking the law just because they decided that they have the right to decide for others (and I do NOT give you that right) what is wrong and what is right. "The "I'm special, I'm entitled to special treatment" attitude". usually the law is made to fit and to meet the APROVAL of the majority. "These analogies are a little long-winded, with a lot of extra junk thrown in that has nothing to do with his argument. "Life of crime"... where the hell did that come from?" you did not consider the implications above "Buying gp is transferring work in the real world to work in Runescape. " we all know that. consinder all implications of doing that before going in head-first. if you can't think of any, then make a pool amongst your friends, or try to understand what is said about this issue by both sides, and the STRONG reason behind every person that agrees/disagree with the issue. the main idea of playing this game is to have fun. the main idea of (alot of) supporters of real world trading is "i can sell my rs cash/character(s) for real cash, yay!"; "i can get to level 99 alot quicker/buy that expensive item" the main idea of opposers: it would ruin my fun, it would be unfair, it would make the long hours i have spent in rs skillng meaningless my translation: supporters: "i want to play less the game, i care more about real life" opposers: "i want to play more the game and i feel that the supporters would ruin my fun INGAME and would make me" (as someone else posted, thank you) "quit rs" "But by paying for the gp, you technically earned it. Now, I'm against kids using their parents money to buy gp (as they didn't earn it), but if an adult wants to transfer outside work to the virtual world, it's fine by me." it's fine by you, it's not fine by others, including me. see above "They want to play for fun. Sadly, I would agree with most of them that the work required to get to the point of having fun is not fun at all. " you have no idea how to train and have fun at the same time? "it's not like there's anything to learning to play Runescape past a 1st grade diploma. " you DON'T get my diploma for your first grade in rs. i can assure you, i have fun in rs, even while "grinding". why? becaus i choose the way i skill, and what skill i train, so that i don't get bored doing it, and if i get bored, i switch to another skill. but that's me. each player has it's own way. "it's not a competitive game". then why you feel compeled to do the "grinding"? why not just explore the landscape? why train to kill a blue dragon with a combat lvl 50/60 character when you can try to kill a black knight with a combat lvl 10 character? why want to have a phat and other rares when you can try and be happy with a character that has 1k coins in bank? (i can still remember how happy i was whan i got 1k+ coins in bank my first time). why? because because you feel that you COMPETE with others, and you MUST have more/the same as they do. "Ever think that they're playing for fun as well? That they want to get past the tedious tasks to the Barraging fun? Way to stereotype." you call "grinding". i call "fun play". if they play for fun, as i said before, why not just convince jagex to give them 99 in all skills and more cash and rares and stuff thant they can ever lose/use for a modic sum, let's say 1k USD and have fun with all that stuff? because after that, the fun will be very short. that player will have no other higher target to reach out to. that player will quit wery quick. "I'm sorry, but these are some of the most pathetic arguments I've ever seen. Not written well either" edit: what i wrote sounded like an insult (and i am sorry about that), so i changed it to: when you will consider the implications, you're going to understand.

i feel that this shoud sound like: no offence editor, but IMHO most of us fantasized for 3 seconds to be in the place of . i KNOW i can't get anywhere near there (by skilling in the normal ways) in the next 10 years unless everybody else that plays rs quits now :P. i know that, and i settle myself to wishing little achievable things, like getting all skills 70+ (only 6 to go :D). i got to 80 crafting by normal skilling, and i feel satisfaction from the fact that i can make glory's for my friends or for me. but it would spoil that, it would make it meaningless, because there would be no distinction between my long hours spent in rs and someone that just bought that with real cash (or other methods). the same applies to other skills too (at least for me).

i take this pretty personally. why would i care? because that's MY fun. it's ME the person that decides what I care about, and not YOU. i take this pretty personally. i decide what i call pointless to me and irrelevant to me, and NOT YOU, duke. the second you wrote that, you were thinking only of your oppinion, not at all at mine. who is the judge to decide who is right and who is wrong here? you assume only you have the right to decide. so i'm not acting at all, you really ARE from the page you linked to . if things would be simmilar in runescape and let's suppose 1$ would buy 50k rs coins (i agree you know more about the exchange rate, and i accept your imput here, but i doubt there is something like 1$ for less than 50k rs coins). this means 93.500.000.000 rs coins. i think you can fund with that kind of rs cash quite alot of characters for quite a boost. possibly more, if the exchange rate would be higher. i'm not answering to you anymore, duke. i doubt you read and consider most of what i write anyway. i doubt you read carefully the pages you link to, since i got some interesting stuff against your idea from them. i hope rule 12 stays. if jagex ever decides to try the same thing that was stated in that study, i hope it's separate servers with and without RMT and that there will be separate highscores. have your fun on the real money trading servers, i'm pretty sure i'll be on the other type of servers.

oh great duke, please forgive me, don't do that. mommy, i think i need new pants! duke, when i say something it IS MY POINT, and it HAS RELEVANCE TO ME. as youreself admit, there are others that say similar things. when you say that what i say is "pointless and irrelevant", you say "your point does not matter (because i, duke, say so) and has no relevance (because i, duke, say so)". this means that only your point is valid, mine is invalid by default BECAUSE YOU SAY SO. clear numbers: "banned 19075 accounts for breaking Rule 7" "banned 2300 accounts for breaking Rule 12" those are the accounts caught doing it, not ALL accounts that do it by dividing 19075 to 2300 means that for every person that wants to buy rs coins there must be some 8 bots/players from sweatshops that play only for rs coins, not to have fun. stop for a minute and THINK, duke. those bots or sweatshop workers cut yews and mine coal. they make mining/woodcutting 3-4 times harder for regular players that want to level up on their own, and in the little non-members worlds it's very frustrating to see that kind of number of players that only cut yews and mine coal. you will say "but i'm against bots and sweatshops". as long as there is demand for rs coins to be exchanged for real money, there will be much more people than usual willing to make bots and create sweatshops. as long as bots and sweatshops exist, skilling in non-member's (and sometimes even in members, because i saw very recently at least 5 bots/sweatshop workers in lumby forest at yews) will be harder, and will make the game harder and way less fun for the regular players that don't want/have real/rs cash to buy those raw materials this also adresses the "competition" part of the argument. as long as i have to compete with bots/sweatshop workers to get the same yew log/mage log/coal/green dragon etc., i will be against real world trading. because it brings us for each person that want to break rule 12 at least 8 players (just divide the rule 7 offenders by rule 12 offenders) interested not to play (because they would get bored and move to another skill) but to WORK at that yew tree/etc. 24/7, making the skilling there WAY HARDER FOR ME, and i have no doubt that it is harder for other players too. you claim that study is the base for allowing in this game real world trading. i say: if that study shows (to the owners of the game) that all things are so great, why the real world trading was not extended to ALL the servers of that game? can't you realize there are major differences in skilling in that game and skilling in this one? this is not ONLY about a few players. only those were caught in a week or so, and the seized rs assets could have been greater, but maybe, just maybe, some of them have real traded way before that, did not got caught, and used that rs coins to recharge crystal bow/repair barrows/get high levels in construction/buy lots of bones and used them, buy lots of raw materials for herblore and used them, then dropped the worthless pots/used the pots/bought lots of food and cooked it. the seized assets are only what jagex saw in their banks/in inventory, not what they used to skill up before they got caught. what we see can be only the tip of the iceberg. it CAN be much bigger and us NOT have hard proof of it, but it's there, and it influences us. THINK about what i said here, duke. THINK before discarding as "pointless and irrelevant"

lonew0lf1974, duke's idea of all this game is: "i want to have fun and gain real cash". he puts aside all implications as "pointless and irrelevant" because he WANTS to. he is firmly convinced that only a madman (like me) would think different than him. only HIS opinion MATTERS, and ONLY his opinion is JUST. you CAN'T explain to him WHY he is wrong, because in his mind HE IS NEVER WRONG.

read more carfully what i wrote. 60-80% CARE for highscores. those 10% ALREADY HAVE HIGHSCORES " "quite alot" is actually some 60-80%. why? because in most skills there is no point in getting from level 70 or 85, maybe some cases 90 to 99, unless you want to be high in the highscores. and it takes a BIG load of work to get from that 70-85 to 99. just for "nothing"? i doubt that. " those that skill above these levels in all skills want either: 1. lots of rs cash 2. lots of rs cash to sell for real cash 3. highscores how many would do any of the first 2 in: crafting, smithing, hunter, construction, prayer, slayer? (those poped in my mind, i did not consider the rest) after you get to 90 crafting, you don't buy 50k (or what is the number to get to 99 crafting) black hides and make them ranger armour. why? because there are very few for sale. those that got to 99 crafting did that (IMHO) for HIGHSCORES. same for mining and smithing. prayer, slayer, hunter, construction noone trains them after a certain level for anything else than getting to be in highscores strange, Duke, you must have missed this in that interview: "Interviews and anecdotal evidence suggest players also make purchases to stay aligned with friends who have attained a higher level within the game" hmmm... highscores?... nah... the interview you linked to finds people that consider that game competitive too... strange... i read it, then i read it again... i just can't find anything about any players that don't like "gold miners", like i am. this can mean that gold miners there don't slow down or interfere with ordinary players, see cutting yews/mages, mining etc. there is NOTHING about players that DON'T like that sistem. that's odd. there must be something bad in everything, but that report has only good news...1/1000000 must be unhappy and mentioned in the report... but the report only states what happend with the TRADERS, not with the REST. "The main one being that it's going to ruin the game if you institutionalize it," Dibbell said. "Well, obviously, that's not reflected in this report." because in the study no one asked the players that can't afford to buy with real money. and btw: what you call "few big buyers" and "lots of smaller buyers" is relatively to your income, since for example for me someone that spends more than the monthly membership fee is a big spender. i don't care if someone spends 10$ or 1k$, or 17k$. that person has an advantage. that advantage is gained with no work ingame, no fight with the gold miners at yews/mages/mining sites. that person CREATES the usefullness of gold miners there and makes me stay there 2-3 times more time. 1 person is something. "The Investigations in the Community Unit (ICU) have worked hard, double checked all the facts to make sure we're only getting the cheats, and then have banned 19075 accounts for breaking Rule 7." recently the sweatshops were included in rule 7, if i'm not mistaking 2300 players that buy rs coins must be sustained by at least 3-8 times (just bother to divide 19075 to those 2300) more gold-diggers that spend time in rs entirelly with the purpose of getting that 1 mil/10 mil/500 mil (i hope i don't have to remind you how many buy for those sums of rs coins rares) for rares or skilling up if rule 12 is deleted, then you will not only see the gold farmers in free worlds at yews and coal and a few in members, you will see them in members everywhere too. this is a GAME, not a way to make real cash, and make skillers like me have a hard time cutting trees/mining etc those 19075 accounts were created with the sole purpose to make rs cash. THINK about this. if you plan to work on your own, you'll get less than 1/19k of the real cash. WAY less, since those are only the ones that got caught. you will be competing against those sweatshops, since those are players, not bots that you want connected with the REAL world. that moment, the virtual world will be a little more real. who decides that they are pointless and irrelevants? you? me? i bring you arguments, you bring me "are quite pointless and irrelevant". nice one =D> mods: would it be a good idea to have a pool something like: do you care if your character is high in the highscores? yes no you find it fair to allow players to buy rs cash (=skills xp/expensive items) with real money, knowing that most players can hardly afford monthly membership and lots can't afford that either? yes no

you call "fun" getting from a game stuff to help your real life. i call "fun" doing something in a game that puts me up against people that have the same chances as me, otherwise i would not play MMORPG, i would play 1-player games. the massive grinding IS the game it is unfair because i play to have the same chances as the other players. if i see players that can just buy with real money 50k drag bones while i can't buy that because i would never spend that much, and it would take me maybe 6 months to get that many from kills, it's not fun at all. as above, if i would want a non-competitive game, i would play 1-player games. as very good pointed out by ProZac_Rehab, why would so many people wish for useless santas, phats, etc? why would someone work 6 months just to be able to say "i have now full dragon, i'm not a noob anymore!" (a friend of mine told me that's his dream). it IS competitive, belive it, or not "In the last week we have banned 2300 accounts for breaking Rule 12 by buying RuneScape gold." that's just the tip (or less) of the iceberg. i don't call that "few players" in the sense of the rest of my post?... if Jagex decided to alow real world trading why would not they just sell that? they are corporation for proffit, remember? that way, all the proffit would go in THEIR pockets, not YOURS. if there are very few players, as you say, the difference would be minimmal. if there are lots of gold farmers, using 3-4+ computers at the same time, they would get there (to high levels and to make lots of coins) pretty fast too. one of your statements IS false. you can't have inflation if there are very few players wanting to buy rs coins with real money "moral" is all about unfair advantage. if i knew i can get only in 15 years what the top 10k players (it's an understatement 10k players, i really do belive there are more who would buy rs coins) got in 15 minutes, it would be a HUGE gap. i don't say they got that in 15 minutes, i say that if it is alowed real world trading, at least 10k players would buy huge amounts of rs coins and get on top of the highscores, wich i find very unfair. it's easy to release very expensive items, that break sometimes, see barrows, crystal bow. that would balance the economy. players trading eachother coins for real cash would bring in lots of goldfarmers, that want to cut mages for real cash, and almost never let players that want to play the game to cut the mages... i cut yews in free servers when my membership expired... it was HELL with only 7 bots... and that WILL happen if there were gold farmers instead of bots thank you. may i say a little thing: my oppinion is that "quite alot" is actually some 60-80%. why? because in most skills there is no point in getting from level 70 or 85, maybe some cases 90 to 99, unless you want to be high in the highscores. and it takes a BIG load of work to get from that 70-85 to 99. just for "nothing"? i doubt that. look in the highscores and tell me how many skilled to 200k in some skills? why would they do that if they don't care about highscores? why?!?! Duke, your only concern is to solve your real life problems by "bending" the rules of a game. i say again: think of the consequences. i have quite some rs cash too, and in my real life i have little money. i would LOVE to exchange it for real money, but that would RUIN MY FUN in the game. i think you don't care anymore about having fun in-game, you care about real life money. it's easy to get rid of this rule, but it would be very hard to enforce it back. your fun is to get real money. my fun is to skill and to see my skills up in the highscores, and to know i'm one of the few that bothered to get there. it would RUIN MY FUN if i knew it's normal that 10k+ players have highscores because they just bought the raw materials instead of grinding hours/days/weeks like me and got their levels in 1/4 or less of my time. it would mean it's pointless for me to do all that, because it's faster another way. example: how many would do quests when they know there is a guide? it's way faster with the guide, but LESS FUN. same thing with the grinding. you get there, but you just bought the thing, it would have way less meaning. AND it ruins MY FUN (i can't speak about other people, but if you look at the highscores, lots of them want to be high there). from my experience, those that merchant want lots of cash to buy expensive stuff, or just to get a skill up faster. then again, i can't be sure about that :P yes, people play for fun. and that fun would be diminished if some would just buy the stuff in 15 minutes with real cash, while others have to fight 7+ gold farmers at mages or mining rocks. you have no idea how hard it was for me to cut those yews against 7 others that were there just to cut them and sell them for real cash. it took me 2-3 times more time to get the same amount of logs. those ARE gold farmers, be they bots, or sweatshops, or people like you.

i am posting the reasons (as i see them) why real world trading shoud NOT be allowed. it's all about fairness, all about all players having the chance to have fun. part of my fun (and from what i read in the article, it's editor's too) is to look how high i am in the highscores, and to know (use) that i have good items. if i see players that just pay real cash and have in 15 minutes all that i have gathered in 1 year of play, the game is nowhere near as fun for me anymore. the game would be played mostly by people with lots of real cash to burn, and not by players that REALLY want to play.

Because you'll be unable to defend your argument how real world trading is "immoral". There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it, if we disregard that it is against the rules. i'm not the editor, and i read your article at wich you link to, duke if the real world money trading is alowed 1. you can't prove that a player is working in a sweatshop or a genuine player, and you agree that there is no fun to compete with 15 other players that want your yew/rock to min/etc, that will most likely be there because they don't play for fun, they play only for real cash. those are not players and MUST BE BANNED 2. you cannot prove that you have 1 account and you buy from 3-5 others that are "skill pures" because you buy in real money, and they are not your own characters (see the rule that forbids trading between 2 of your own characters). furthermore, it's very unfair towards players that use only 1 character and not use another one to "store stuff". most players complain about bank being too small, so it would be very unfair towards them 3. this is a GAME. we play for fun, we start with the same basic stuff, and we invest alot of our time to get our levels up. it's very unfair that some people could just buy their levels up (herblore, prayer, use only rune arrows, fletching, cooking, crafting, smithing, etc) while lots of the players have to work to have the same stuff. when someone comes and buys all that, it might be nothing. but there is a market, and that market is more than those 2k members (that were banned) strong. it's way bigger. it HAS impact on hard-working players. 4. why not Jagex sells high-lvl characters? you pay let's say 500$ (or 1000$ or whatever) and you get your 126 combat lvl character 99 in all skills, with 1 of each rares, and 500mil in bank. because the game is all about you getting all these for yourself, or swap them for something you earned in-game just because you were banned because of real world trading is not a reason to find ways to prove that you were right and Jagex is wrong. how much you worked to get your skills up, to raise all the cash to buy expensive stuff? would you like to see someone get the same thing (or way better) in 15 minutes from a lvl 3 character to your lvl (or better) just because he/she payed a real-world sum of cash?. what's the point then of the highscores? to prove who likes more a skill, or who has more real life cash to burn? there is NOTHING RIGHT with real world trading hey, i don't like other rules either, but this does not mean it's something wrong with them, it means i'm not perfect. changing the rules to fit you might have more bad things happenning to you that sticking with the present rules. to ask for the rules to be changed so that you can solve this way your financial problems is not a good idea at all.

i was a few months ftp. it was nice until i craved more and more about member's items and skills. and i upgraded to members. i held on to p2p as much as i could, and waited (im)patiently when i had to be for some time back p2p i think f2p shoud get only updates in graphics and sounds. why? because f2p is to give you a taste, to get to a level where you know what the game is all about, to see the graphics and ideas and what other things you care most, then decide 1. i like the game ---a) i can afford, so i upgrade ---B) i can't (for various reasons), but i still thing it's a good investment of my time and i'll continue to play f2p until i can afford p2p ---c) i like only f2p 2. i don't like the game some say: ok, but it is outdated, needs new quests, etc i say: you know the taste, you MUST decide: no runescape, f2p or p2p, but p2p is to GET those quests, etc some say: ftp gives loads of cash to jagex, more than members as was said before: if that would be true, then p2p would not exist some say: ftp deserves updates (as said): ftp is only to give you TASTE, not new quests on to numbers: "So 4,500,000>2,500,000Y 4,500,000/2,500,000=1.8, which is>y" you forget it's not y=1.8 in the following, its ">" because of that, you must ask someone that knows about this stuff (ads and payment for them) if 1.8 = y or more likely (IMHO) 0.1 = y was stated that jagex has loads of proffits: (number here) for salaries (number here) for bonusses (number here) for servers and bandwidth you forgot that: (at least in my country) for 100% net income of the worker 60% MORE is payed to different stuff: pensions, healthcare, others those (stated 200 workers, but it's a suspect round number to me :P) 200 workers DON'T work at home, they have a workplace, that needs: equipped (don't tell me furniture/computers are cheap) payed maintenance: various stuff including electric bill for 200 computers working and not the least, payed rent or bought the place (i doubt the office housing 200 workers cost little) after you deduct all these you have the proffit. wich is taxed (as already stated). but wait. the people that made the innitial investment shoud have a share of the proffits too, right? ok... now it was stated that ftp shoud have more content to atract more players to p2p. i think that's a contradiction. if you put more in ftp, there is less reason to go p2p. and p2p exists because it's more PROFFITABLE. so the most proffitable way to go is to put at least as possible new quests/stuff in ftp what would i do? all runescape content available for free. why? because i would not have to pay (and i work for that cash and in my country the pay is not that great, so it's bordering the amount of cash i'm willing to spend) and because i could skill with some f2p friends that i have what will Jagex do IMHO? if you read carefully, you know the answer :P