Glove

I'm so torn, am I more excited for WOM questy times, or dungeoneering updates and resource dungeons, or the TT overhaul? Can't. Decide. Less excited that it's time to get in gear and level my con since the quest requirements are venturing a little too close to my actual level for comfort. XD Way to smooth things over Jagex; well, so far anyway, we'll see how the actual updates pan out. This could very well be a month of awesome.

It's not the inflation that's the problem with this situation. As people have mentioned, it will most likely only have a short term effect on the economy before the extra money gets redistributed and eventually leaves the game; the effects will likely echo for a bit longer because of the panic and overreaction that's been caused by it. The problem is that the situation was absolutely avoidable and unnecessary. If Jagex had taken the time to be a little more creative with the solution to something they perceived as a problem and imbalance in the game, there wouldn't be this upset at all. Anyone who knows anything about Runescape can tell that the economy and inflation are hotly debated issues; these are things that everyone has some kind of opinion on. I know that there are people who think Jagex is largely disconnected from their consumer base and the player experience of the game; most of the time I don't agree with those people. In this case though, I absolutely think Jagex should have anticipated that this would cause a certain amount of panic and uproar in the community (given how the community sees inflation) and come up with a different way to bring about the changes they wanted. Honestly, Jagex dropped the ball on this one, and they most likely don't view the way they handled this as a problem because they've continued to be insensitive to the community's fears and reactions since. I don't think they should roll back (and it's much too late for them to do it now without causing more harm than good), but they might want to take a look at how they're valuing and approaching their customers fears in relation to how they value what they want to get done. The customer service aspect of this update leaves a lot to be desired.

GAHAHAHAA! I haven`t seen that in I don`t even know how many years. Believe or not, the sense of humour in the community used to be like that all the time; just sort of random and insane, but awesome. :D

Not really, no. I've always loved doing quests so I've pretty well done them as they've come out since I started playing. Although, that said, a lot of the reason I skill at all (especially skills I hate, I'm looking at you agility) is that I'm preparing for future quest requirements. Nothing sucks more than getting complacent and then not being able to do a quest the first day it comes out.

They actually have zero obligation to show two sides of anything. It's up to the person playing the game to critically evaluate for themselves. Also, you're imposing the American political system and history on other countries with very different histories and very different connotations associated with terms. Just because something tends to be addressed by one political party in America doesn't mean it's the same in other countries; you can put that down to those countries being 'left leaning,' but realize that your view is, at least in part, coloured by your own biases and scale for comparison. There are intricacies and complications that you may be missing. I always thought the funny thing about Guthix was that he slept through catastrophes and rarely ever did anything. Jagex also has gods dedicated to order and 'good' as well as gods dedicated to chaos and 'bad'. They also constantly complicate a straightforward binary understanding of them by adding in tidbits that question exactly how 'good' and 'bad' these gods are.

No, but the point is what does green and green thinking and all that crap have anything to do with a computer game supposedly met in Medieval times? Or are we talking about the Medieval global warming trend that most climate change people love to ignore? Especially considering that at the time the quest was produced the game was clearly intended for younger audiences. I'm saying in a game like this, they should keep that crap out of it. Another example, coal. "Hmm, a nonrenewable energy source." Yeah, that makes sense, except that in Runescape it actually definitivelyu renewable by the fact that it respawns every 30 seconds to a minute, so how dumb is that? Once again, them trying to put their agenda across in a place where it doesn't belong. Um, the fact that it is a very present problem in current society, and that it is something that the people who create Runescape care about, is what it has to do with Runescape. Runescape is set in a pseudo medieval setting anyway; it's not going to win any awards for historical accuracy, and it isn't trying to. And, a game like this? Really? I'm calling shenanigans. Programming and games targeted towards kids generally have much less ambiguous and much more heavy handed moral messages embedded in them; by the time they're old enough to use a computer without parental oversight, they've probably heard about the environment and the adverse effect human intervention has had on it more than once. Captain Planet may not be on the air anymore, but just about every kids show there is has an episode (or several) dedicated to the importance recycling and not impacting the environment adversely (or, at very least, being as low impact as you possibly can). Also, just about anything with some kind of narrative created by humans has a bias because our biases create the lens through which we view the world, our perspective. Expecting narrative to be free of bias is pretty much expecting the impossible. No one is entirely neutral. Better to teach kids to think critically than attempt to strip anything they come in contact with of said biases and perspectives; because one is an exercise in futility, and the other is a vital skill in life.

Are we having mass amnesia about the reason why Jagex is super secretive about their updates? Does no one remember the long, drawn out fiasco that was POHs? Or how about summoning, which was hyped and then rushed? Or the plethora of other updates that either languished while they tried to work out the implementation of the design (invariably making changes to the design) and then ended up rushed? This isn't just Jagex acting with zero rationale or instigating factor. The reason why Jagex is secretive isn't only that they get a certain glee from feeding us cryptic little messages; honestly, I think by now they have to be so careful about what they say and how they say it (or the rumour mills start churning out 'facts' about upcoming content like nobody's business) that it vastly outweighs the pleasure they get from coming up with riddles 99% of players can't decipher. I could be wrong of course, they might just be that masochistic. The problem with Jagex releasing information about new content is that the community takes it, runs with it, and then beats it down into a bloody pulp and almost no one at all is pleased with the eventual implementation: not the player base and not Jagex. They've attempted to remedy this situation by going int the complete opposite direction (trying not to release any info at all, giving no firm answers on anything, being so cryptic no one can make out anything from what is given). It hasn't worked out very well. Yes, Jagex needs to find a better balance of releasing enough information that the player base is prepped for at least some of the new releases (personally, I wouldn't mind a few absolute surprises every now and then), but holding enough back so that when things change during the design process players don't cry foul. But let's not all sit here and pretend the community has had no part in the need for this at all. In general, the community has a tendency towards hyperbole and unrealistic ideas of how long it takes to design and implement content. Just recently we had people complaining about there not being a substantial update after the double exp weekend, as though it was reasonable to expect a medium or large update after something that took (despite it's bit of fail) considerable planning, time and working through finnicky bits to implement (especially considering the amount of impact it could have on the rest of the game). Not everyone is like that, but enough people are that it creates a definite atmosphere where Jagex is damned if they do and damned if they don't. And, despite being a little lame so far, Jagex is trying to make motions towards re-engaging with the community about future content. Yes, so far we have one interview about dungeoneering (that basically reveals nothing we didn't already know) and one con (which is prohibitively expensive for a large portion of the player base) where they plan to release info direct to the masses, but it's a start. A clumsy start, but a start. Jagex has always been a little clumsy that way anyway. The problem with beta testing isn't really the secrecy and lack there of when we get down to it. It's a part of it, probably, but the real crux of the matter is that beta testing using players would bring about more problems than it's worth and there is little incentive for Jagex to pay professionals to help balance new updates while there is a lot of disincentive. Let's not couch this in Jagex's 'unreasonable' secrecy; it's a factor, but not the biggest one by a long shot.

Well, the main problem with releases generally isn't bugs, but balance issues. You know, like when a quest is released with an agility obstacle that is coded so you have to pass an agility check with each step (at increasing difficulty) instead of one or two agility checks, ultimately making it much harder for people with low or middling agility to pass the obstacle than intended. I don't know how they test this kind of thing, but something is going wrong for them somewhere in the process because this sort of thing is a recurring problem with their implementation of designs. Somewhere in the design and implementation process certain things are given more weight than others (like I suspect with dungeoneering that the cost of reward items was looked at heavily in relation to the impact on the rest of the game outside of dungeoneering and priced from there, and then that cost wasn't compared and compromised to the level and amount of experience it would take to get the tokens that was already set for the skill itself causing a huge disparity between the two) and then probably not reconciled with other elements (ultimately undervaluing those elements and causing the imbalance); I mean, I don't know, obviously I don't work for Jagex so I have no idea what the specifics of their process is, but the results end up undeniably skewed. Having a professional beta team that was independent from the design, development and implementation teams (as well as skilled with assessing balance) would probably greatly improve this. That said, there are quite a few obstacles and disincentives for Jagex to actually do this that don't stem solely from Jagex being stubborn secretive bastards. 1. They would need to hire professionals. -They would need to hire professionals instead of using the player population because it would give those player testers an advantage over other players. Not only would there be a murky grey area where the testers might use their knowledge to buy up resources before a big update and then profit immensely, but there's also the fact that knowing how a skill or update works from the get go (having already gone through the awkward 'zomg this is new, how does it work?!!' phase) means that you already know how to train efficiently or how to use it to your advantage right away while other players (the non-testers to a large degree) don't. Since RS has a large number of ultra competitive players, this would cause a huge ruckus; one that is more trouble than it's worth. So, they could use players, but only if those players never played the main game again. Not to mention that whatever you think about the fairness, levity and consistency of Jagex's decisions in regards to keeping players on even footing, Jagex thinks they're doing a good job of it and most likely wouldn't want to jeopardize that by implementing something like this on a large scale. However, one of the major problems with using professionals is that they cost money. They would have to either get this money by cutting into their profit margin (what incentive do they, as a company, have to do this when plenty of people are willing to pay for membership with the current development and implementation model?) or by raising subscription prices (yeah, no, one of their main selling points is that they don't cost as much as online games from other, bigger companies). They could, maybe the improved implementation and integration of updates would improve their subscription rates and they would make more money, but it's a risk. They have a business model, that while flawed, is working to earn them lots of money. Players complain and wax poetic, but they still pay. 2. The community itself. -Okay, stay with me here and don't take this personally. I'm not speaking about or for each and every individual player, instead I'm talking about generalities. Every update there is a segment of the population that complains loudly; sometimes with good reason, and sometimes just because there is a strain of people resistant to change. There is a tendency for hyperbole in that every change that a segment of the population likes is 'super awesome!!!! (insert epic win face here)' (whether or not it is broken or unbalanced) and every change that a segment of the population dislikes is broken or unbalanced (again whether or not it actually is). This a problem that every game developing company faces. But what's unique about RS is how long the game has existed. This causes a larger divide in the community because the game is constantly changing so each new 'generation' of player (if you will, there is no 'generation' that is inherently better or has a 'truer' vision of what RS is) has a different idea of what RS is or should be; this overlays and amplifies the divides between the usual differences in play style and stylistic likes/dislikes that usually occurs within any community around a game. This means that even if Jagex does change it's business model and design/development/implementation model, they are most likely still going to get a heck of a lot of negative feedback from players saying that things are broken just because they don't like them. While on its own this would be a minor disincentive, paired with the two other factors mentioned and that plenty of people already pay for the game with method of updating and fixing unbalanced material the way it is, this just becomes amplified. Should they implement a new system of beta testing? From a design perspective, it would probably make new content integrate much more smoothly, so yes. From a business perspective, it's questionable whether the potential for profit outweighs the drawbacks and costs.

I think your question is whether it's inherently (i.e. default setting) lame and arrogant to have your private chat sets to 'friends' or 'off.' The simple answer is no, it isn't. People have a variety of reasons to set their private chat to 'friends' or 'off' so there are a variety of contexts the state exists in and can be understood through. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Personally, I like meeting new people (especially since almost everyone I was friends with when I started playing have quit ages ago, so if I want to play and do activities with others I generally need to meet new people). But, I'm also extremely introverted. That doesn't mean I'm antisocial, but it does mean that I find interacting with people exhausting; even people I've known my whole life and I am extremely comfortable with. In RL, I sometimes go for days or weeks without talking to anyone I know for more than a few minutes (or at all, if the circumstances lend themselves to it); I try to keep conversation with strangers to the minimum I can while still being polite and avoid it wherever possible. Most people I know understand that I get burnt out. So, when I'm playing RS and starting to feel burnt out from interacting with people, I set my private chat to 'friends' or even to 'off.' I don't think it's rude or arrogant to be self aware and to use that knowledge to better my quality of life. Some people do limit their private chat to be elitist and because they're arrogant, just like some people do/wear ridiculous things because they think that makes them awesome, rather than because they think the things they do/wear are kind of cool in and interesting/fun in and of themselves. But putting a one size fits all style judgement on that sort of thing only feeds into the same process and line of thinking. You don't have to like, or agree with, or just plain think something is awesome just because someone else does, but as long as people aren't hurting others with it, there's enough room for everyone to live, play and think the way they want. Anyways, if the arrogant/elitist people are all playing with their private chat on friends, chances are you won't be dealing with them anyway. ;)

Yeah, someone somewhere went ape over getting a spirit weed seed from a torstol. Apparently, there's a bug. Is it a bug, or is it meant to be that way? I've gotten random herb seeds from dead patches, but I always get seeds that are the same as the ones planted from healthy patches. This sort of leads me to suspect that it wasn't a bug, instead it was intentional.

I'm officially blaming my off topicness on you. :P Anyway, yeah, fair enough. Although, the major problem with RWT was that it was trading real money for an in-game advantage (gp, which could then be changed into experience in various skills with components that could be bought) and that it caused a very destructive and volatile real world industry and situation for Jagex where in stolen credit cards were being used to pay for memberships. Strictly speaking, the payment for the ticket resulting in getting a redeemable code (which some players may choose to sell to others for real world money) that gives the person an in-game item is RWT, it won't induce a resurgence of either of the two major problems with RWT; it's a little hypocritical in the area of Jagex professing that they don't want a player's real world wealth to give them an in-game advantage over another player, but again, there isn't really a real advantage to the banner aside from showing off. I do agree that an actual physical item would be a million times cooler though. XD I'm not going to pretend to understand the pricing, nor defend it. I've got no idea how expensive cons are; I've never been to one. If I'm going to be swallowed up by a large crowd, I'd rather be listening to a band or at an art gallery/museum to be honest. XD On the drinking age limit, it goes by what the limit is in the country/area you are currently in is. For example, the legal age to consume alcohol in Ontario (Canada XD) is 19, but it's 18 in Quebec, so if you're in Quebec you can go to bars and buy drinks if you're 18 whether or not your residence is in Ontario. Likewise, if you're traveling in another country that has a lower age limit, like the UK, you can drink if you are above that limit regardless of what the limit is in your home country (the opposite is true too, if the age limit is higher in the country you're visiting you can't drink unless you're of equal or greater age, regardless of what the legal age limit is in your home country). It's the same for laws of consent and other miscellaneous age limits. I think the legal drinking age in the UK is mostly 16? I'm not completely clear on it though because I haven't been to the UK and I don't drink anyway (and, I'm way above the age limit anyways XD). Got me there. That's probably one of the most frustrating aspects of RS. Although, to be fair this is probably why they did make it a 16+ event. 16 in the UK (again, from what I've gathered through various sources as I haven't visited the UK myself) is not the same as 16 in the States or Canada I don't think. At sixteen in the UK teenagers enter college (I think it's sort of like cégep, if you know what that is... more responsibility, work and freedom in relation to life choices and school than high school, but less than university? IDK, that's what I've gathered) and have more responsibility and freedom than the average sixteen year old in North America; or, it seems that way, it might just be a sort of token thing. I'm not clear on it, so maybe one of the UK residents can clear that up for us. Personally, I don't care much either way myself. I'm spending my hard earned cash on a month long road trip through eastern Canada (and it's going to be super awesome). It's just the tone of the argument (from both sides) has rankled me until I got my hackles up. :P Now that I'm back, you're so not getting rid of me easily, nor any time soon. XD

It's been way too long! It's great to see you around too. :D I'll, um, stop cluttering this thread up with off topic stuff now. XD

I'm trying to understand where people are coming from with the argument based upon principle. The place I'm tripping up most on is the seeming lack of proportion within the argument; I think a lot of other people are having trouble with this as well. Comments about this limited release item being a generally useless cosmetic item with little inherent in-game value (rather than a godsword, as people have mentioned) aren't only about the value of the item, they're also about the proportion of uproar, upset and dismay in proportion to the inherent value of the item and scale within the context of the happening that has sparked this debate. I'm genuinely puzzled. Although, I have to admit I'm generally genuinely puzzled by the value placed on other items that have had limited release (to take one example, the scythe... I have one, I wouldn't care at all if Jagex released them again). Could someone explain to me why this is such a large problem? For example, why they view it as a precursor to a sort of cash shop being introduced to the game? What precedence of past actions are you basing this upon? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I would like to understand because it's just not obvious to me. I will agree that technically this is a case of hypocrisy on Jagex's part. As Das, and others, has pointed out, this can technically be seen as an exchange of money for an in-game item. However, I would argue this is very small scale hypocrisy, especially since there is a precedence that other companies hosting events give out a free token item or gift of some sort to attendees of said event. It's more a gesture than anything substantial, like giving away an item that gives an actual advantage within the game. For example, most sports tournaments have something like a free t-shirt if you participate (usually an ugly free t-shirt... am I still bitter over the t-shirt for the rugby provincials I participated in being the ugliest mix of lavender and fuchsia? Yes, yes I am...). The t-shirt usually has zero actual worth aside from it representing that you participated in said sports tournament; any sense of pride when wearing it doesn't come from the inherent qualities of the shirt itself, it comes from that fact that only people who participated in the event have one and that it declares that you have in fact participated in said event. This flag seems to exist in the same vein. Yes, people can change the context and personal value of the item based on their own outlook, but that doesn't change the fact that the inherent value of the item is like that of ugly sports tournament t-shirts; you showed up, you participated, and now you're a dork wearing an ugly t-shirt like a badge of honour. I think the cultural context and precedence supports this interpretation and thus put forward that to interpret it else wise is to stray from the generally accepted understanding into an individual understanding that a) not everyone will understand and agree with, and B) should be recognized as a specific interpretation and stated as such within argument. Thus it is a small scale, isolated hypocrisy from a specific point of view rather than a broader, more general case of hypocrisy; which I'm willing to give them a pass on because I don't believe their intent was for this to be an exchange of £75 for a banner, rather they intended it as a happy aside to a main transaction (£75 for entrance and participation to RuneFest). Also, to stray a bit from my previous points into other territory for a moment, I'd like to touch upon the implication that people who don't see a problem with some of the things Jagex does are beholden to them in some manner or lacking in critical reasoning skills is getting really irritating. I'll admit that I have a certain fondness for Runescape (I've been playing for several years since it was a very small game with three servers, I wouldn't stick around that long if I wasn't fond of the game) and thus have a certain fondness for Jagex as well (as they created the game). I'm not blind to Jagex's flaws because of this; rather, I see them clearly, but they don't particularly irritate me. Jagex has always made unrealistic statements and then fallen short (LOLOLOL, when members was first released there was a statement that free-to-play would still be updated with the same content, just at a slower pace... obviously, it didn't turn out that way, partially because it was a completely unrealistic business plan); this has happened numerous times, and it just doesn't bother me. It bothers some people; not because they're stupid, or lacking in critical reasoning skills, or overly high strung, or any other number of defects one could apply to them, it's just that it does. And I'm not bothered by it not because I'm a suck up, or stupid, or lacking in critical reasoning skills, or any other number of things people could call me; it just doesn't bother me, for a multitude of personal reasons based upon my own experiences. I have a lot of experience with translation, as I like to call it (in my family every fish caught is an arm span long, if you catch my drift), so maybe I'm just inured to it. I am getting frustrated with the use of hyperbolic language from both sides. And it is coming from both sides. If there's a single golden rule to debate or argument of any kind it's the principle of charity. The principle of charity doesn't mean giving people credit that isn't due at all, it's actually about giving people a chance to earn credit where it's due in the first place. It's setting aside one's initial reaction and trying to understand the strongest points of an argument from a neutral standpoint; poke holes in it is spread a bit too thinly by all means, but don't just focus on the holes. If you don't understand something, if you're not seeing something, ask about it before writing it off completely.

Instanced dungeons have existed for ages, I remember playing an SNES RPG with this dungeon that was randomly produced and different every time (I think it could have up to 30 floors) and anyone who's played a hack and slash game of D&D has probably done a crawl through a randomly generated dungeon (or two, or three). WoW may be famous for raids and raiding, but it's hardly the only place to get inspiration for randomly generated dungeons (or even the most likely, I'd bet my left sock that more than a few Jagex developers have played D&D at some point).

There have been a lot of concerns raised around dungeoneering not being implemented within the game outside of daemonheim. And while I can understand that, currently dungeoneering is very self-contained, history has shown that many skills that were previously self-contained in similar manners (agility was not useful outside of being needed for a few quests and failing less on courses themselves until shortcuts were implemented and, more recently, run energy was changed) have been changed to become more integrated in the game and game play. Dungeoneering was released just over a week ago, it's early days yet; given Jagex's history and the main thrust of revamping old skills, I think it's not overly optimistic to assume that they will be integrating dungeoneering more thoroughly into the wider game. I can understand frustration that Jagex didn't do so right out of the gate; honestly, it probably would have quelled quite of confusion and disgruntlement, but Jagex has always been a bit clumsy with introducing things and their handling of the community.

I'm excited! I haven't been out to the pest control island since they changed pest control, it'll be nice to have a reason to go out there along with getting some lore for the void knights and whatnot (which has been sorely lacking since pest control first came out). While there are quite a few quest lines that need to be furthered and wrapped up, there's only three developers (one of them is a newbie still cutting his teeth) on this project; I'm not worried about this line slowing down the others. Plus, it'll be great experience for the new developer, likely making him more useful and quicker when helping with other quest lines. Plus, I'm desperate for a new quest too.

Um, first update the week after a new skill implementation; call me crazy, but I wasn't expecting anything huge or revolutionary. A nice update that mostly affects lower levels and a few fixes/changes for already existing content is pretty much par for the course.

Look, there isn't much use arguing about this because Jagex is not going to change the classification. At this point, any argument over the classification of dungeoneering is irrelevant.

Got my scroll of life, which probably won't actually save me much money, but does take away a bit of the sinking feeling I get every time I see a dead patch. :D I'm saving for a gem bag next because I always end up getting a handful of gems each task; it'll be nice to have a single slot for them and not have to leave any saphs behind anymore.

Look, I understand you dislike the way Jagex develops content and runs their business. That has been made abundantly clear as the major theme of almost all of your posts, particularly since dungeoneering was released. But I have to admit that it's beginning to irritate me that it seems like you believe that is the only way to view Jagex and the new skill, particularly if a person is intelligent and has the capacity for critical thought. I understand that you have a point of view and that you are arguing passionately for it, but debate is built upon accurate representation of fact, the principle of charity, and the ability to concede that there is room for more than view of things without necessarily being 'wrong.' There's been little of this on both sides of the debate. I know there's been sniping from both sides, I don't think there's any value in laying blame for who started it first, but let's all try to be aware of the implications of what is being said by the words that are being chosen. Let's all of us try to respect each other and not make leading comments about people's intelligence based on the opinion they have. Personally, I think dungeoneering does have a few problems, but none that can't be overcome in time. I'm not bothered by the skill (I'm going to take for granted that skill is the proper category dungeoneering falls into for ease of communication and to stay on point) having problems on release; most of Jagex's releases have problems out of the gate. I don't have a problem with dungeoneering being classified as a skill, even though it has quite a bit in common with the minigame format found within Runescape. I think a lot of the problems (i.e. dungeoneering being too isolated and not directly involved in other skills, only have a singular location, the disparity between reward costs and the dungeoneering level required for them, and so on) will be addressed in the coming weeks with subsequent additions of content and tweaking of currently available content. I'm optimistic because there's a lot of room for expansion.

I tried to make a strong defence potion last night, it's supposed to be lvl 75 herblore but I kept getting a message saying lvl 85 herblore was required to make it. Has anyone else gotten this?

I don't think it's a bug, I think they meant it to be that way; but I don't they anticipated people completing a floor and being close to the level for the next floor and deciding to cash in points to access it. ><

Chronicles of Bilrach part 13 :)

Did you gain lvl 33 dung before/when you completed floor 16? If not, you need to complete floor 16 again to gain access to floor 17. I just finished another run through the floors, and didn't get access to the floors below floor 21 until I completed floor 21 even though I had the dung lvl required to access up to floor 24.

YES. I've only been doing solo so far, but this would help keep the piles of supplies I might need (lol, I drop them in the starting room) more organized too.