lobsta

How could you possibly know that there has to be an illogical answer to the question? Science has demystified much over the centuries, at a great cost to most religions. Why do you suppose that there is not a scientific explanation for the universe? If God does exist, he must have been a scientist to fine tune the universe to the way it is. Why are you so quick to claim that 'God did it', (but we won't know how he did it), yet you are un-willing to admit that the universe was born through natural causes that we are as yet (or maybe forever) unable to understand? A universe with purpose? What is purpose? Purpose is only a mechanism humans utilise to understand the world. It is an extremely vacuous argument to claim that just because you think that it seems more rational for their to be a purpose, there must have been a creator. I accept God as an extremely small probability, mainly as I can not disprove his existence. I do not 'know God exists'.

I think you will find that any scientist and hopefully any rational intelligent atheist will admit (or at least SHOULD) when they do not know how something occurs. Science after all is driven by ignorance and the quest of knowledge.

So in order to explain the Universe, the most complex physical thing, you're going to argue for the necessity of an even more complex consciousness that has existed eternally? Don't try and claim that God is less complex. God created the Universe apparently, he can't possibly be less complex. The attributes which you say the Universe cannot, or does not have, you give to God. If you're going to be making wild assumptions, why would you not just assume that the Universe has always existed? Why would you fathom a complex consciousness, with a load of other stuff to go with it, in order to explain something when you could come up with an infinite number of explanations that are less complex and more likely? There is also an infinite regression. You can't just say "God did it!", because who did God? Where did God come from? You're willing to say that God just exists, but you say this is impossible for the Universe? I agree with this. God always seems to get a 'get out of jail free card'. It is utterly absurd to believe that God is less complex than the universe. You never see a spear making a spear maker... Even if God were less complex than the universe, it still doesn't actually explain how the universe was created. How did God create it? How was something less complex able to make something more complex? God does not solve the problem of how the universe was created. God only aggravates the issue. How can anyone simply 'know' that God exists. Surely it is far better to admit that we do not know how the universe was created.

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No. It would be unwise not to respect the freedom for people to have beliefs. However, we do not necessarily need to respect the beliefs that other people have. It becomes very dangerous when we can not challenge ideas about the world. Religion should not warrant any form of immunity to criticism.

lol

If only countries poured as much resources into Nuclear Fusion as we do developing Nuclear Bombs. I wonder if we were able to utilise this power source a few years ago - would the U.S been concerned much by the Middle East? Nuclear fusion really would be a get out of jail free card at the moment.

Why is it important to define the orders of magnitude regarding atheism - in this context. Regardless of whether or not someone is a strong atheist or a weak atheist, the result is still the same. A lack of belief in God. An atheist does not make a leap of faith in anyway comparable to that of a theist. A theist believes something for which there is absolutely no evidence for. It is unimportant whether or not we define atheism as a belief system - because the human brain works on a series of beliefs, consciously and unconsciously. Im sorry, but getting technical about definition is a bit silly. God does not exist.

My Dad committed suicide just before christmas by hanging himself in the garage with a choke chain (which I now know, does what it is supposed to) attached to the fixture that holds my boxing bag. Unfortunately my younger sister saw him - so did my mum. I can not understand why he did it, as there was no suicide note (and it was very much out of the blue), but also the way in which he did it. He had a shotgun, he should have gone to some woods somewhere and blown his head off, because the image of seeing a dead parent or loved one is something that will stay with you for the rest of your life (I know someone else would have seen him). But I think this is testament to the irrationality of it - in this case anywhere. My opinion, is that we should not try to think of it too simply. The multiplicity of causations should not be overlooked. Perhaps genetics lead to a greater propensity for suicide in certain individuals. Certainly events in individuals lives can lead to it. Saying that suicide is not as bad as people say it is - is not correct. Until you get the phone call telling you that a loved one has killed themselves, until you see the emotional harm it causes on others, until you see the coffin that contains the dead body that used to be someone you know and until you wonder why someone chose death over living with you - might be the day that you change your view. Suicide as an alternative to the monotony of living? - Disgraceful.

If the laws of the universe were programmed any other way, chemical reactions necessary for life would not occur. If the earth were further away from the sun, it would be too cold for life, just as it would be too hot if the earth were closer to the sun. If the series of natural events that destroyed the dinosaurs did not occur, you may not be hereOf all the organisms before you, every single one of them successfully reproduced before being eaten or killed. If any one of those organisms made even the slightest decision differently, you may not be here now. You are extremely lucky to be granted such an infinitesimally short spark of consciousness - we should not belittle this by living for an afterlife, or believing we were designed by God. If we were designed, we were designed very poorly Our purpose is not futile or meaningless - for we live to reproduce - to grant other humans a chance at life. Why does a species so vastly intelligent need a God? We don't.

We know for sure that Dinosaurs existed. Did you really? Did i not say that we could see now? sheeesh, you quoted it ffs. But on the whole extinction of them, we cannot be sure, we can only make guesses and get them as close as we think possible. I apologise for not understanding you, you did not articulate yourself properly.

I must say sir, that this is the only thing that I agree with you about.

brilliant.

We know for sure that Dinosaurs existed.

You do not know how we got here, what makes your claims about the origin of the Universe any more relevant than mine? Is it evidence? Well there is plenty of that. http://www.godandscience.org/slideshow/sld001.html How do I know that God doesn't want puppets? It is written in the Bible that he gave man the freedom of choice to follow him or not. He can't make a sandwich so large he can't finish it because the statement contradicts itself and doesn't apply to God because it's nonesense. That's like saying "Can God make something so black that it's white?" It doesn't make sense. Why would God fear his own creations? Especially since he wields infinite power? My friend, It's a matter of opinion. You can't prove either side of the argument. It all has to do with the person and their own conclusions. This debate is already over. I will admit that there are many things in this world that I am ignorant about. I do not know how the Universe was created. I do not know the exact series of events that occurred that would eventually lead to our existence. But I do not pretend to know, or think that I know. It is important to admit when one does not know something - ignorance drives science. The problem is that you claim to know how the universe was created - well it is up to you to prove your assertions. Posting links to that spurious website is not evidence. (I am not getting into a debate about validity of sources) The questions are not stupid, because they are analogies to demonstrate the incompatibility of Omniscience and Omnipotence. For example; Does God have the power to change his future mind? My point is, even if God did exist, there is absolutely no evidence for him. Therefore, you can not make ridiculous assumptions about how he operates (scientifically). You do not know how God operates. If one thinks about the question logically and sensibly, with the facts that are present - one should only arrive at the conclusion that God does not exist. You claim that you can not prove either side of the argument - a vacuous statement. You can not prove that God exists. It is impossible to disprove the existence of anything, therefore Atheists can not disprove the non-existence of God. However, because there is absolutely NO evidence for the existence of God, one can only assume that he/she/it does not exist. And yes the debate is already over; God does not exist.

Regardless of Einstein's religious convictions, we are deviating form the topic at hand.

I do not have the information available to me to counter this point (Einstein) at the moment, as I am not at university. Morningrise, you are correct.

[/hide] Einstein was not Agnostic, he was Atheist. Though I may also add, if the Bible is the word of God, why are the works of William Shakespeare better? 1. He was Agnostic. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html 2. Your opinion on whether something is better than the Bible or not is irrelevant to the discussion. Albert Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

That's you're opinion. So you're saying that we exist because of nearly impossible events occuring many times (Such as life sprouting from a chemical mix, the Earth being the perfect distance from the Sun as not to fry anything alive, etc.,) is more probable than a creator? I fail to see the logic. God can do everything that doesn't contradict itself, no God can't make a sandwich so big even he couldn't finish it, or make rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, what you are saying is nonesense and therefore null and void. God change his future mind? Time is an illusion, it is merely a series of events of change within an object that are recorded, and we percieve this phenomena as time. It is a finite thing now matter how long it goes on because it had a beginning, and God existed before time, and he will exist afterward if it ever ends. In other words, God has no beggining, or an end. Like I said, God limits himself so that we have free will, but he could do whatever he wants at any time. God is not a coward, He wants something that can think for itself to choose the right path, not a puppet. Im sorry but please think about what you write. It is not my logic that is faulty, it is yours. We do exist from numerous improbable events. The fact that we are here proves that life can begin under such circumstances. Your argument from improbability is an extremely vacuous statement. The idea of an intelligent (whatever god is...) is of many orders of magnitude more improbable than the universe being created from natural events. As I have already stated; a God that can read peoples minds, answer prayers, know the future and can somehow transcend the laws of physics (to name but a few of his abilities) must be so immensely complicated, his existence becomes very doubtful. Simply put, if you are arguing that it is too improbable for life to occur naturally, it is in reality, more improbable for an intelligent designer to create the universe. God does not solve the problem; who created the creator? Surely the real beginning of everything should begin with the creation of God? How do you know God can not make a sandwich so big even he could not finish it? How do you know God can not make a rock so big even he could not lift it? Time is not an illusion, it exists - we are constrained to our perception of it. How do you know that God limits himself so that we have free will? How do you know God is not a coward? How do you know he does not want a puppet? For something you know nothing about, because there is no evidence for his/her/its existence, your assumptions are purely speculative. The truth is, even if God did exist, we would still know nothing of his/her/its workings (scientifically), certainly we would not know enough to make ridiculous assumptions.

Einstein was not Agnostic, he was Atheist. Though I may also add, if the Bible is the word of God, why are the works of William Shakespeare better?

There is no God. It is greatly improbably for (the existence of whatever God is) to be Omnipotent and Omniscient. To be Omniscient you have to be infinitely complex - so complex that you can read the minds of every human being, listen to prayers and know the future etc. God would have to be so unimaginably complex. There is a greater probability therefore, that God does not exist. Omnipotent? What is his limit? Can God have the knowledge to create a boulder so big he can not live it. Does god have the power to change his future mind? To answer these questions one enters into an infinite regression therefore proving that Omnipotence and Omniscience are not compatible. If God knew the future, then we would not have freewill, we would only have the illusion of freewill. In which case, why does he create souls that he knows are going to Hell? God does not exist.

Im sorry, but we are an awfully sorry bunch if the only reason that we do good is because we are sucking up to an invisible deighty in the sky. That is not very moral at all. Truenoob was absolutely correct, we do not get our sense of morals from the bible.

Definitely had that recently. My Dad committed suicide this December by hanging himself in the garage, off my punch bag as well! Now I have to get a new one :( I'll never forget the phone call my mum made to me (as i am at uni). It was very much out of the blue, we had know idea anything was wrong with him. He seemed happy enough, had a lot going for him etc. Then going to the funeral of your father and seeing the coffin...damn lol So I can definitely relate to reality hitting you in the face lol.

You took me literally lol

It would be if people went as rabid about the boogeyman as some do about atheism. No it wouldn't, you're talking absolute rubbish. I have beliefs that communism is not a good thing, for example. I would tell my communist apologists that I think they're talking rubbish - but that does not mean I have become a Religion. This topic is really drifting off course...The Religious really should not bulk Atheists in with them. Even if it were a religion, it would be the right one. All atheists would definitely go to heaven.