Dracae

Yehhhh.... why even PLAY a game... when you can have it played for us by a program.. in fact, why don't we just pay Jagex a few bucks and buy all the things we want directly... Maybe we can make it so people with more money can buy better and more things.. Hmm.. why not instead just put the balance of our bank accounts online, the one who has more to spend 'wins' the game.. THIS IS ( or was ) A DARN GAME! not a freakin animated series..

Jagex gave up, they surrendered. If they had the cared about the game as they did several years ago, if they still had some form of moral compass, they would not have done the things described in the article, but besides that, they would not have opened the floodgates like they did when they reintroduced unlimited wealth transfer. I was a huge supporter of JAgex, I always pointed at the statements made by among others the Gower brothers about there passion for the game, about quality over making money etc. The last time I quoted Paul Gower on RS forums the message mysteriously disappeared, because it contradicted the new policy of grabbing as much money as they can... The only reason I am still on the game at times is that I long time ago founded a clan and I do not want the members of it to have to suffer, form my disillusionment, so I keep it running.. but playing.. no.. I do not play a lot any more.. Ironically a few days before they started selling back accounts I banned 2 people from my clan for botting, and admitting to doing so, wile flaunting there new levels.. Ps: All this, combined with them sacking a lot of there employees dealing with this subject makes me think they only pretend to do something, just to keep up appearances. pps: Jagex is mistaken if they really think they can compel sites selling bots to give up there customers. Most civilised countries have laws protecting customers form exactly that.. so an other smokescreen...

@ Crocefisso's article: Yes voters need too indeed blame themselves, but I still blame Jagex also! They had a duty to protect the game and to refrain from this kind of populist non sense. I have always been a big supporter of Jagex , specially when some of there measures were not always welcomed by the masses at first, because they seemed to have a 'conscience' about the game, maybe in the form of the Gower brothers.. This, my believe in Jagex and in my opinion there 'game conscience' ended with that referendum. With there obviously false statement that they could control bots and other cheaters, with them choosing a fast , short term up over the long term well being of the game. Free trade and real pk-ing were actually appealing too me, but not the inevitable consequences. So.. i voted NO and I argued the fallacy of there assurances, there referendum and its unavoidable outcome.. and the most heard 'serious' reply was: 'Jagex said so, so it is, mostly from players who had till then refused too believe the same Jagex when it insisted for years that limits on the transfer of wealth were needed because you can not win the battle against bots otherwise. I now rarely play, after putting in over a years worth of full play days, because Jagex ended the golden age of Runescape, instead of as claimed by many, brought it back.. I firmly wished I was going to be proven wrong.

What saddens me about all this is.. the huge amount of short sighted selfishness. I see it again and again, bots make prices of raw materials lower.. so its cheaper for me.. This reasoning is only valid for a part of players, mostly the higher levelled ones and the ones without the desire to do certain skills. New players and ones who want to level there gathering skills get in to trouble because of this. In my opinion RS needs all types of players to keep healthy.. way to many high levels get us what some people call ' an end game scenario', or as I call it: the game will get even more top-heavy then it already is. But really.. I am already getting a little selfish myself here again, those things are bad for the game and in that way bad for me. Even without this I think lower levels , gatherers simply have the right to get a profit for there activities that is not diminished by cheating. We can even go simpler.. Cheating = wrong.. period.. But , like I allude to earlier, I am also a little selfish, and this is SHORT SIGHTED.. how long do you think it will be until bots can do more complicated things that will affect you directly?

Ring_World: I am not going to rehash the same areguments, we go around in circles.. You care about money, and how fast one can get it.. and I care about a game being as clean as posible ( even disregardling the impact cheating has ). I would like to point one thing out: you are just plain wrong on ess bots. This based upon my own observations, which I obviously did not videotape to prove things to someone disputing the obvious. How ever, the prices of pure ess are proof enough on its own.. Besides this, I think we , as players can hold Jagex to what they told us would happen.. because that is what we all based our votes on. They said cheating would become a bit worst.. but they would be able to handle it. This fact also makes you pointing at the polls useless, since the result is based upon a prediction by jagex that is not coming true.. so not valid any more. The many reactions by players who did vote yes and still complain about bots on the different forums shows this. Again, I am not saying Jagex should take w/ft away again, I am how ever saying they need to now do what ever it takes to make what they promised happen.. even if it means hiring 100 new people, less updates for a wile..or what ever else.. If that is no option.. well.. then it might be time for them to read Ts Stormrages article and try his solution. - A lie not discovered becomes the truth.. so call people on them -

The easy answer would be: So.. you have not played since they reopened free trade! But, on the off chance tat you are not just trolling .. I suggest you look at the old favoured bot locations: Yews, fishing-guild, chaosdruids..for example.. or some of the new ones, like witchesgarden or red chins to witness things yourself. An other thing I would like to suggest is you re-read some of the explanations by Jagex in 07.

Perhaps the prices shouldn't be lower as much as they are, but this isnt a solvable problem. Free trade probably exaggerated it more but restricted trade didnt solve it. This isnt a side affect of free trade as much as a side affect of a game that is too easy to bot. I wonder if its even possible to have a game like this, without having botting be possible.. specially with bots becoming better. I still believe Jagex was right when they in 07 said the only way to cut them down to size was to take out the real life profit. I still hope, however, that something really did change, like Jagex claimed.. and that for some reason its just delayed... I do like Wildy, I do like free trade, but I hate cheating more.. Restriction indeed did not solve it, but It cut it down to size majorly.. I also agree there is no perfect solution... taking away freedoms was not good.. having bots is not good... I however would have chosen a different route, more along the lines of Ts_Stormage's article.. I realise this all is a mater of values.. what do you value more, a clean, fair game.. or a total freedom.

Lol, that is why you are the writer, clear and concise recap of what took me a whole post to say.. Thanks, and for that matter, thanks for the nice articles also.. I am usually to busy ..discu..arguing.. to say it.

Ring_World: There is one disconnect here. My reasoning is this: - The article says w/ft has bad side-effects, one of them is the lower prices for gathered products due to bots. - Your reaction is: prices will settle in a month, and also: these lower prices are the natural prices. Note the word - lower- since this discussion is about the defects of w/ft update, lower does not stand for lower then other skills.. but for lower then it would be without bots. - I did not, will not, argue skilling should be potentially more profitable, I argue only one thing: cheating should not influence profitability . period. You say: skilling already has a lower reward and players do not have to skill.. so these lower prices do not matter ( if needed I can quote you saying both things ) I do not see how what you say excuses the influence of blatant cheating. Everything in this game has its own time and risk V xp and money as designed by jagex, by the economics of Runescape. THAT is how it should be, not 'as defined by how many bots are in the game' . You should also be aware 'skilling' is not a single thing. You call fishing skilling.. where it is gathering. There are skills that , if your prepared to concentrate on it , click a lot, you can make a hell of a lot more then for instance fishing.. I don't see why you generalise so much to get skillers V killers.. or call all skillers complainers.. If I did the same I could point towards the constant complaining by some pk-ers for years... and say : all pk-ers are complainers. I know better though. So why do I 'complain' , as you call it? I want this game to be as 'clean' as possible, so, with the least amount of cheating possible, again, like Jagex promised when they put the poll out. To be totally clear, make sure there is no misunderstanding, your quote: "I dont see how low income takes away from that, and if you think it deserves more money per hour then you missed the point entirely " If low income means less then other methods, then it takes nothing away from it.. if low however means the prices like they are now, as caused by bots then this takes away from it because its just wrong. SO, 'skilling' does not deserve MORE money, then it should have, but it does deserve more then it has now.. since .. again.. the current prices are caused by cheating. I do not know how to make it any more clear, but, I'd like others to tell me if what I am saying is so hard to understand, please.

I agree a lot of these skills could be a bit / a lot more involving, but that still does not excuse bots ruining the proceeds. Bots are not part of normal game play as made by Jagex, how ever standing there waiting for you inventory to fill is. Now, like I said, i would not be against this changing, but as long as Jagex has these 25 skills there a lot off ppl want xp in them and getting a normal reward, as determined by how Jagex made the game for getting this xp is not to much to ask.. I want to also note that bots are getting more and more sophisticated, its only a matter of time before bots are capable of killing Jad, merchanting, Pk-ing, or what ever else this game has to offer.

First off: bots are here to stay, learn to deal with it is true, but in this discussion still total BS. We all know you can not ban cheating totally, but we also all know botting was very dramatically cut down in 07 and now is on a huge increase again. Jagex claimed to be able to handle this fallout , which , looking at the discussions on forums was a main reason for many ppl to vote yes. Some players want things there way regardless of any consequence.. well, that ends all discussion doesn't it.. My ideal sytuation would be to have what Jagex promised when they put the poll out: Runescape WITH wilderness and free trade, WITH skilling AND pk-ing , with only a bit of an increase in cheating.. not a massive one , like we see now. Skillers want an increase in profits: also non sense, I have not seen anyone, including TS ask for this, skillers ask for the prices to be fair and true, not affected by massive cheating. Example: a shark without bots would be lets say 900 ea, and with bots affecting it 500 then I want it to be 900.. I am not asking for it to be increased to 1000 or what ever.. "Tell me. When skilling, how useful is...time invested, ok, everything takes time. Patience, skilling takes time, doing things that take time require patience. Concentration? I'm sorry, when people skill they often try to find something else to occupy them so they DON'T have to concentrate. Social skills, if you count talking while fishing to ignore how grindy it is, sure... Understanding of math....um, be able to calculate how much your 2346 fish are at 643 each? Wait, the GE can do that for you.... Or, you know, a calculator." -> I talked about the game of Runescape, NOT skilling.. so, please re-read, and if you then still want to argue concentration is not needed in RS, well.. then your better then me at afk-ing lets say TD's "he real difference is the skillers, like Dracae, are saying "this isn't fair," -> Again... read... I AM NOT A SKILLER.... AND I DID NOT TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS... I play this game.. ALL PARTS.. and I am annoyed by prices of gathered stuf going down because it is caused by cheaters .. by something that does not belong in the game! I did not and will not complain about prices changing because of legitimate game additions, like with maples that went down due to miscellanea.. I have not only always adapted to changes in this game for 6 years, but also always told everyone: 'Adapt or go extinct' . Adapting to cheating how ever is not the right thing to do, the right thing is to combat it! Its rude, judgmental, generalizing, trolling however it is right. Bots arent leaving, and skills will always be crap money so long as it takes no skill for the player to do (notice merching/pking/staking all take skills and SKILL). You were right in your post about needing skills to be good, and frankly everything you listed a monkey can do. It takes a little more effort to predict the market, or learn the inner mechanics of how to win a fight and swing the majority of them in your favor (and a bit of luck!). It is only true that skillers get nowhere in Runescape if you equate 'getting somewhere' with getting fast money. There is a lot more to a game then money, in fact, a lot of players would consider a pure with 200 totally level and a billion in the bank a failure.. not me , I consider everyone who manages to get a personal goal done successful. BTW, I am not poor at all, I do not depend on fishing or any (one) skill for money, nor am I incapable of successfully merchanting, pk-ing, staking or what ever.. I do what I feel like doing and have fun doing that.

nice try at discrediting me by saying i approve of bots. here's why fishing would still be comparatively crappy money without the influence of bots: there are two things you can do in runescape - fishing and killing monsters. fishing takes 60 actions per hour, and killing monsters takes 6000. at the start of this exercise, both fishing and monster hunting make 1 million gp per hour. if you were a monster hunter, what incentive would there be for you to kill monsters instead of fishing? you risk more, work harder, and get paid the same. so you switch over to fishing. this increases the supply of fish and the demand for monster drops, and decreases the supply of monster drops and demand for fish. this pushes fishing wages down and monster hunting wages up. at what price the equilibrium will settle is uncertain from the given assumptions, but fishing will always be lower wage than more difficult options. it has bearing (that's how you spell it by the way) on the conversation because purported skillers claim to be helpless to adapt to current markets. bots are here, whether you like it or not, and you must adapt, and no amount of complaining is going to change that the bots are here. i like how you keep trying to twist what i'm saying into "LOL IM BLADEWING I SUPPORT BOTS BOTS R GOOD SKILLERS R DUM" i never said that the devaluation of parts of the game isn't a problem. please stop putting words in my mouth. i am discrediting the notion that one is a fisher for money and cannot help that and is 100% a victim of the bots. i am saying that those are OPINIONS being portrayed by posters as FACT. would you read at least one of my posts instead of copypasting and distorting it? you get that vibe because after every sentence i write you add in your own "and bladewing likes bots". my posts are not about free trade or wilderness, they are about skillers playing the victim and refusing to adapt to today's ruenscape - runescape with free trade and wilderness. i encourage you to reread my posts :???: Sigh.. anyone without a bias reading this thread can judge themselves.. but basically, all you are saying here is total non sense towards the only thing I really called you on... : You claim lower prices on gathered goods are basically as they should be... ( Bladewing : "low price is their true price." ) I claim by far the biggest reason for these lower prices are bots. I claim one other thing: a game should be played and not cheated and that is what a gaming-company should strive for. Fishing, the example you use, being less profitable.. regardless.. does not matter.. you repeating this does not matter.. and if you can not see this this discussion is over. I never said you support bots, I left room for the other possibility , that you just do not understand.. I also did on purpose not react to your generalisation of skillers.. or any other group, since I do not believe this game should be about a them versus us mentality. Nor am I a skiller, or a pker, or what ever.. I do all in the game.. and many others also do this, if I were a skiller though, i would still not care about your slander, since your opinion on that does not matter to me. I only care about having a fun and fair game. If you do want a serious discussion , then please answer the question you avoided earlier: -Why should illegal activities be allowed to make any skill less profitable then it would be if the game were honestly played? Ps. I am sure you will find spelling mistakes in this also, thanks in advanced for helping me.....

NO, I do not think woodcutting should be as profitable as boss-hunting, or what ever else comparison you want to make. Obviously each skill has its own set of rewards. What I am saying is: cheating, botting, rwt, etc.. should not make profits in any skill go up or down. " Face it, skilling is for chumps. You are safe, and secure in what you do and that is why you will never get anywhere in runescape. " That is rude, judgemental, generalising, trolling and plain wrong. Skilling is A ( one ) part of the game. ( period ) And getting anywhere .. wel, that is defined by personal goals.. if you want to be a level 3 with 99 slayer.. and make it happen.. then you are successful.. just like you would be if you want to be a a pure who wins 9 out of 10 fights and make that happen. Also, risk v reward does not determine all in the game. It applies to combat.. but if you want a game that is only about combat.. go play a FPS.. Time invested, patience, concentration, social skills, understanding of maths and English, etc etc all also determine ones 'success'

All this quoting and requoting is geting complicated, so I took most of it out.. scroll up to read it. Below you see quotes by 'bladewing' and my reactions. --------------------------------bladewing------------------------------------------------------------------------ i never said that anything about botting, especially never that i consider it legitimate. i said that the true price is a low price. please read nex time thx. also if you think the labor of fishing is balanced with the labor of killing tormented demons or nex then you my friend are horribly wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lower prices of these goods ARE caused by bots, not by normal supply and demand or by legitimate game-play, so you claiming these lower prices are the true prices automaticaly means one of two things: --you appreciate the influence of bots or you really do not know what you are talking about. -------------------------------bladewing-------------------------------------------------------------------------- let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You said this before... and you are totally correct, no one has to do any part of the game.. but how does this have any baring on this discussion? How does having or not having to do a skill make it that --illegal activities should be allowed to make any skill less profitable then it would be if the game were honestly played? Explain that to me... please.. ---------------------------------bladewing-------------------------------------------------------------------------- obviously they are all meant to be played, which is why i am horribly confused why "skillers" continually complain about how they can't do anything but gathering. by the way i don't see how you think it is more intrinsic to the game or more honorable to gather and then trade for gear than to kill bosses for gear and then grade for materials. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Runescape has 25 skills, over a dozen mini-games, activities, 100s of quests.. a full map and much more, all this IS Runescape. Jagex works hard, one assumes, to make all this worth playing and rewarding, --and they should or take the parts they consider useless out. You claim the current devaluation of parts of the game by cheaters is not a problem because there is other parts that one can play instead.. how --does that make sense? That would mean them originally taking away W/FT was totally ok since you could do boss hunting.. pvp.. or fishing instead. Is that what you are saying? You claim this is what we(?) are saying: - gathering skills should be more profitable -> No, they should be as profitable as they would be in a game without all these bots. - i have to use gathering skills "to live" in runescape (lol) -> no, I do every part of the game and make money out of just about all if I so choose. - people who refuse to play certain parts of the game (skillers) should be allowed all the benefits of playing those neglected parts of the game without the effort of actually playing them -> Ehm.. benefits without actualy playing? Did you read anything I said? A game is meant to be played, every xp and every gp I have on my account I earned by playing.. It seems to me you really like the return of W/FT and do not like any criticism on this decision.. Not sure but that is the vibe you give up. I myself like w/ft and always have, but I do not like the downsides. -- To me it is about balance, upsides V downsides should decide what happens. I still hope Jagex can make it so the downsides will loose a lot of there impact, as in.. they can take out a lot of the cheating, -- botting and rwt increase made possible by the return of W/FT. Making one side of the game better should not make an other side a lot worst.. specially if this is due to cheating. I understand this includes pk-ing, skills should not make pk-ing impossible.. but.. that did not happen did it.. it was cheating that made Jagex take away W/FT ...

let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour). yes, they contribute less. fishing contributes less effort than soloing dagannoth kings - not only is it risk free, it takes about one fiftieth the effort. this is runescape, not america - you actually can be anything you want to be. you aren't forced to fish. and being stubborn isn't a good reason either. This is RUnescape indeed, a game with 25 skills, all made by Jagex to be part of the game.. YES part of the game, so made to be PLAYED.. If this was not the case Jagex could have just added stores to sell these goods, leaving gathering out altogether. You may consider one skill inferior to an other, but that just shows how limited your way of thinking is. If you were in charge Runescape would basically just be a multiplayer shooter game.. earn money killing , spend it to increase your gear.. There are enough games like this.. I can even go as far as to say the only true runescape players are people who do every part of the game.. since all these parts ARE Runescape. A total player, not just a skiller, just a pker, just a bosshunter.. etc . But I won't , Runescape is also the game of endless opportunities, which means it can and should be enjoyed by everyone in every LEGAL, NON CHEATING way possible. That includes gatherers!

In a month sharks just about all the gathered items will be stable.. at incredibly low prices.. making RS very one sided... easier buyable production skils, useless gatherer skills. Unless Jagex can actually do what they promised, take care of the bots.. the game will suffer a lot. low price is their true price. fishing and woodcutting are hardly labor intensive, and hence earn low wages. wow.. sorry, but I just have to ask... are you that dense.. or just pretending? We all know, except you it seems, that the only reason prices on the likes of sharks and ess are now plummeting is BOTS, a price caused by cheating can never be the true price. Unless you consider botting a legitimate part of playing Runescape you really should rethink this.. As far as labour intensity.. Jagex has balanced this by several mechanisms, like the time it takes to gain one item and the length of the bank runs.

In a month sharks just about all the gathered items will be stable.. at incredibly low prices.. making RS very one sided... easier buyable production skils, useless gatherer skills. Unless Jagex can actually do what they promised, take care of the bots.. the game will suffer a lot.

ehm..... really.. and he could have gotten this firecape without the HIGHER stats??

I say rwters play for respect and epeen as much as the self rightous, Devalues-my-achievmenters so how can you say one is more repulsive then the other when they are really the same animal? I say you should go buy a movie..instead of pretend to play a game. Maybe you can also steal a BMW in real life and drive around in it pretending your 'the man'. There is no reason in the world why botted stats should garner any respect. About the same 'animal' : pedofiles are human-beings like all of us .. still , somehow.. I think they are a lot more repulsive then most..

I am, sadly, not surprised. This is why I voted no, although I knew I would enjoy wild and free trade again.

You guys are all giving valid ways in wich ppl get hacked. I do not take all the people shouting 'hacked' at face value. Some people I take a lot more serious then others. I have myself already sorted trough this and still see 'smoke'.. Not always, but often : where there is smoke.. there is fire. So anyone reading this, make up your own mind..

I totally understand this is circumstantial and it might turn out this was a coincident.. but I am not talking one person.. I am talking about many. I am also talking about people who seem responsible and lastly why its not Jagex: no stats reset AND banks totally emptied in several cases. This is just a warning, no more.. do with it as you like. If you want to believe al these people are boters.. fine, I actually hope you are correct, means Jagex is finally doing something..

Several of my friends seem to have been legitimately hacked.. with the only link between them: they use Swiftkit. As a result I looked and asked around, and saw similar stories on rs forums , locked though, and I found more friends with similar experiences. NOW : I am not saying swiftkit has a key-logger or in some other way is hacking accounts.. BUT I am warning everyone using it to be very carefull.

double post because of technical problems and me being a ..bit dumb...

So do I, as in knowing ppl quitting after being hacked.. and like most ppl against my idea, I actually believe most ppl 'hacked' have themselves to blame.. but I remain: why not avoid this at all? I did not ask for Jagex to make this mandatory either , so everyone who can not spare the money or usb port ( splitter anyone? ) would not have to do this. I also did not suggest Jagex make money on this.. I would hope they would provide this at cost...