StrOwez

Max Payne is the only real game that provoked emotion out of me, it's a 15 i played at 11 so that's probably why.

You've been told that this is spam already, if you really want to go to a different forum google forums.

[/hide] 1. ...what? Explain please. You just shot a term out without defining it. Explain what you are thinking please. 2. You can't call it illogical. You don't understand it well enough to conclude that it is indeed illogical. Your mindset right now seems to be that God doesn't exist, seeing as you call it illogical. Correct me if I'm wrong. 3. I don't quite understand what you expect of free will. Do you expect a default, 1st world setting for everybody to begin with? That child can make choices of its own, so I don't see what you're trying to say. 4. Also, if you're only talking about the robotic Christians that only try to act like Christians to make themselves look good, don't bunch them with the Christians that actually live for God. I've seen both, and it's totally different. The poser Christians are not really Christians. 5. Umm...ok. So are you saying that the rainforest guys DO have a chance to know God, or no? That was sort of a neutral comment more than anything. [/hide] Your Last Post here [hide] [/hide] 1. I see what you're saying, and I see how you could say that because the baby didn't actually make any choices in his time, he didn't actually have free will. Very good. This is one of the controversial topics in Christianity that pretty much nobody really knows for sure. I'm not a theologist, so sorry. 2. ...what? Faith is not illogical buddy. It's not just like a random, "Oh, I'll believe" type thing. You would know that God is spiritual from what you've learned, right? My Bible teacher, who is one of the most Christian Christians that I've met was totally ignorant about everything having to do with God. Then a person popped up in his life and taught my teacher about God through the Bible. Romans 10:17 - Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. You mentioned that you are agnostic, which the dictionary defines as "thinking that God are unknown and unknowable", and that you don't have faith. You might want to find a person who really knows his Bible and see if you can't learn. I think I understand your position right now; the Bible wasn't much to me except for "Believe Jesus and go to heaven, or go to hell" type facts. 3. ...there's just one problem with your complaint. We DO have free will. People, OUT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, have changed the world so that material conditions are NOT equal everywhere. What you're asking for is that God override all the stuff people such as the European imperialists have done is Africa for example and just turn it into a similar thing to other first world countries. Again, MAN made those conditions with FREE WILL 4. Could you explain the uniqueness a tad bit more? I'm confused as to what you mean exactly. There's more difference to the two than you think. The poser Christians KNOW the stuff, but only pose so that they can look good (I see this a lot in private Christian schools; people try to fit in by looking good) Christians live for the love of God. They could care less about how good they look to others; they live genuinely to glorify God and become godlike. I suggest that you go read Mere Christianity and The Pilgrim's Progress. 5. Ah, that's that poser Christianity I'm trying to explain. Christians aren't living so that they can "become good people". That's a completely different motive than what the Bible's teaching. Christians live for God. Again, I recommend those two books. (1) Fair enough I appreciate this is a tough question , no human being would know the answer to unless God specifically tells that person. (But until he does I can't believe in him) (2)I think faith (which is the believe in something supernatural) is quiet illogical, for example, I can't see God, he doesn't physically talk to me. So for me to believe in God or any other spiritual being requires me to abandon logic and concentrate on faith.(if that makes sense I may not have made it as clear as I want to) (3)Your trying to disagree with my statement, but you're also supporting it. Yes WE do have free will, however the babies that are born due to our mistakes or natural disasters (i.e. babies that will die few weeks after birth) Don't have free will. Therefore it isn't fair on them. But it was the same God that made me and you, that made those babies also. Therefore you have to ask yourself why did God make those babies, if he knew they would die? You could say it's the parents choice to have the child, but the bible tells us God makes every baby. Therefore SOME people have free will, whilst other do not. (4) The issue with uniqueness, well the Bible tells us that each human is unique to God in his own way. Yet I was linking that statement to the free will, 2 babies are born with AIDS and will both die in 2 weeks, now what's to make those 2 babies unique to God? Nothing, they have nothing different about them. (5) I'll make sure to read those books in the near future, as I'm generally interested in the subject. The problem to none Christians about Christians is basically the message sent to his apostles by Jesus,(after his resurrection) where he instructs his followers (Christians) to preach the Gospel to all the Earth. I guess some none believers don't want that preaching.

Thanks to the mods for keeping this open, as I can see the temptation to lock it. I've learned a lot from the topic, I hope others did too. I'm off to bed g'night :)

So telling us without question that what we believe in is bunk isn't pushing your beliefs on us? I don't care what you believe, as long as you don't force it on others. But the Bible tell you to preach the word, so hence you have to do it.

I heard on some radio programme, that anything we speak played backwards makes some random sounds which can be interpreted into words. However some bands do make hidden meanings on purpose cuz it will give them more controversy and hence publicity.

Is this is meant to be some kind of a 'mock' on my topic? Or a way to get it closed down? At least I took time to think through my topic and arguments for it, yet your argument fails at the first hurdle.

[hide](1) God wouldn't willingly hurt people. It's people hurting people. One of Jesus' preachings said that if you hold strong against oppression, you'll be blessed. For everything they experience in life, they'll be blessed for after they die. Once again, this won't seem appealing for non-believers, but Christians hold this as a great reason to withstand persecution. (2) By saying you did nothing to Jesus, you say you never sinned. For every sin you do, it's another blow to God and Jesus (I'm not perfect myself, if I'm giving that impression). And I would be one of those Christians who would say that you are part of the reason he's on that cross, along with the rest of humanity. (3) I'm sure your parents wouldn't get very far if they were in the position of the people who starve and die in the rainforests, or wherever else poverty strikes. It's not just what you gain, remember that even the very basic circumstances are not to be taken granted. Everyone is born to die, not just those kids. The true pity is that those kids never got to experience life, along with not knowing Jesus. Once again, the bible doesn't say what happens to such kids, but we can assume safely they'll have a better afterlife than life. (4) That's like saying that the Judicial system is blackmailing criminals; "don't kill anyone or you go to jail" doesn't verge on blackmail. And what you must understand is everyone has eternal life, either heaven or hell. And yes, if you hear and don't believe you go to hell. Oh, Good night! Can't stay on much longer myself.[/hide] (1) Your statement there is mainly based on faith, and I can't really argue with faith, even if I produce you good arguments against it as I already have you would still think otherwise. (2) I did nothing to Jesus! I was born 16 years ago he was 2000, however nonetheless I 100% understand where your coming from. Again its down to faith, in that Jesus really did die for my sins. (3) Exactly! They wouldn't so they had a better chance at life, whereas the guys in born in a famine country such as Sudan don't. (4) Yet, the jail is visible whilst God isn't. (5) Good night :)

[hide] keep it to your self? because there *was* no disscussion..you came in here telling us your lifes problems.... and that second part of what you said..."I'm not the one...." maybe you are...as you feel the need to come here and tell us all your problems...in the hopes that someone will believe you and follow you. and going into great detail about what you dont like about us... thats why religion is based totally on the F Word......faith... and when you try to target us...please be more specific on who your talking about... the pastors on TV in the mornings...is total crap...and not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian... LET THE FLAMES commence... [/hide] Please read the whole topic, not just the title. Maybe then you'll have more compassion on your fellow brother.

Ok, playing by your rules now. I disagree with the your attitude to your mother - you obviously have problems with religion yet you let your mother continue to be part of it. Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it. BTW don't you dare report or set a mod on the last part of my post - your entire thread is based on the ehem so therefore either I must be allowed to make such comments or this thread is equally out of bounds. (1) I've read the Bible from cover to cover. I spend time thinking about passages. (if that's what you was getting at) Your telling me I'm picking bits out of the bible, yet you say you chose to ignore some and concentrate on the love, care and morality? (2) wrong, I don't believe in any religion yet. Because I'm yet to see proof, your assumption of my ignorance to other religions is quiet offensive but so be it. (3) Lowest type of argument I had morally speaking. You say you use my method, then I'll use yours, The Bible teaches us to respect our parents and do what they want us to (hence Jesus dying because his father told him to) If my mum wants to believe in Christianity that's her choice and I respect that, however it did also change her attitude to me, in that she and her new found friends want me to become a Christian but I can't for reasons posted. I'll admit it Christianity makes my mum more happy, and as a loving son I'd respect anything that makes her happy (even though I may not agree)[/hide] I'm afraid you have me very very wrong, although my own ambiguity is partly to blame. My reference to "picking bits" was because most people who start threads such as these have gone to atheism.com and read parts of the bible out of context, not necessarily meaning what they seem to say. In no way do I mean to take the bible literally and word for word, such is the action of fundamentalists (who personally I disagree with, although that is another matter for another time). I would like to keep my own views out of this as it would discredit me somewhat however I suppose a tendency to view Christianity as a moral guidebook whilst realising its constraints and age is a suitable analogy for now. Anyway how to interpret the Bible is a long and complex subject and not one I feel elaborating on at 12.30 at night :wink: . Also, do bear with me whilst I wait for some evidence of true deep reading of the Bible, it is very easy to type things on the internet. 2) I said you were ignorant of other religions as you said yourself you knew most about Christianity and sorry to break it to you, but you know very little about that. It seems your experiences of the faith so far have been poor and I'm deeply sorry about that but I'd hate for you to lump the moderate majority in with those who convert constantly. 3) Once again I blame my own ambiguity, of course I meant no insult to you, I merely hoped to give you a taste (bitter as it is) of how it feels to be questioned when you have done nothing wrong. Rest assured I mean no disrespect at all. I suppose my main problem was your tone in your initial post, you say you have problems understanding, why not just ask then? There are plenty of people who will be happy to answer your questions but the tone of your initial post (which you hopefully realise as potentially offensive) is not going to win you any help. I've taken a step back, I hope we can discuss this cooly and calmly, If you do have any questions about theology I will do my best to answer them, but please be serious about what is to some a very serious matter. EDIT - I r tired, I'll do my best to answer anything tomorrow although I implore the mods to leave this open as I feel most of the flaming is dying off now and we have a chance for some real progress. (1,2) I do know the different ways of interpreting the bible, parables and such. I have been to Christian run camps, youth groups etc. (3) Good night :)

[hide] [/hide] 1. ...what? Explain please. You just shot a term out without defining it. Explain what you are thinking please. 2. You can't call it illogical. You don't understand it well enough to conclude that it is indeed illogical. Your mindset right now seems to be that God doesn't exist, seeing as you call it illogical. Correct me if I'm wrong. 3. I don't quite understand what you expect of free will. Do you expect a default, 1st world setting for everybody to begin with? That child can make choices of its own, so I don't see what you're trying to say. 4. Also, if you're only talking about the robotic Christians that only try to act like Christians to make themselves look good, don't bunch them with the Christians that actually live for God. I've seen both, and it's totally different. The poser Christians are not really Christians. 5. Umm...ok. So are you saying that the rainforest guys DO have a chance to know God, or no? That was sort of a neutral comment more than anything. [/hide] (1) You said that the baby who will die early in his life without having the chance of making mistakes etc, will get judged by God depending on how he would of lived his life and his actions. Therefore your making the person totally lose control and God take over yet on your second point you said to me that we have free will? To which I put the former argument that yes some of us may have aspects of free will, whilst others do not. Hence saying God isn't fair on every person that he makes. (2) I'm sure that having a God can't be logical it requires faith. (because you can't see God ) Yes I lost my faith, yet I'm agnostic and still open to the idea of something being out there. (3) That's exactly what I'm getting at. If we all had free will then we would have to be in default setting, yet we're not and therefore there is no free will. (4) I've also seen both, suppose your right in drawing the line between them, but you have to admit they act the same because they believe the same stuff, this isn't really an issue with me, but I feel that a person loses a bit of his/her uniqueness because of this. (5) About the rainforest guys, I'm saying that they would be better off believing in God because maybe it would bring them up to a higher standard of living, since it would instruct some good morals onto them. However whether they'd go to heaven or not is another matter.

[hide]

[hide] Ok, playing by your rules now. I disagree with the your attitude to your mother - you obviously have problems with religion yet you let your mother continue to be part of it. Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it. BTW don't you dare report or set a mod on the last part of my post - your entire thread is based on the ehem so therefore either I must be allowed to make such comments or this thread is equally out of bounds.[/hide] (1) I've read the Bible from cover to cover. I spend time thinking about passages. (if that's what you was getting at) Your telling me I'm picking bits out of the bible, yet you say you chose to ignore some and concentrate on the love, care and morality? (2) wrong, I don't believe in any religion yet. Because I'm yet to see proof, your assumption of my ignorance to other religions is quiet offensive but so be it. (3) Lowest type of argument I had morally speaking. You say you use my method, then I'll use yours, The Bible teaches us to respect our parents and do what they want us to (hence Jesus dying because his father told him to) If my mum wants to believe in Christianity that's her choice and I respect that, however it did also change her attitude to me, in that she and her new found friends want me to become a Christian but I can't for reasons posted. I'll admit it Christianity makes my mum more happy, and as a loving son I'd respect anything that makes her happy (even though I may not agree)

Seriously now can we stop saying this is a flame war, as both parties of the argument invested time and energy into the debate.

[hide] (1) The thing I mean about a child being unique is, every child is different but every child means the same to God - from the biblical point of view. This I challenge as being wrong since, I'm getting a fair shot at life whereas a child born into starvation gets 0 chance of being successful in life, it just isn't fair. (2) God does influence that choice, since he did make me, therefore he planned my life. Yes I know I can make choices during my lifetime, but god knows the ultimate choice, since he is God. I don't have to cross the line to be punished, I don't have to kill anyone. To be punished according to the Bible I can live a perfectly normal life, leave all my money to a charity before I die and still go to be tormented in hell, just because I don't understand the whole concept of Christianity. Well obviously that doesn't prove his love to me, as I see people babies (which he created) being killed for nothing that they have done to deserve. Funny you should mention robots because that's exactly what religion makes people, think the same, do the same things. Back to your point, if I was ever meant to be God and wanted people to love me I'd just make them love me in their genes ever since they're born. The category 'Bible doesn't say' that's a new one, in fact you can get away with anything by using that phrase. Tbh the bible does say what's going to happen, lets look at what the bible DOES say. Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus and accept him as their saviour WILL go to hell. 1. This is kind of an unknown. From what I've heard on this topic, the child goes to heaven or hell based on how he would have acted if he had lived (God's omnipotent, so he would've known what the kid would've picked) 2. God made you, but he gave you a will. He knows what you will decide, but that doesn't mean that he pushes you to those choices. He just knows what YOU will pick 3. Hmm...sorta. Bible says, "Seek and you will find, etc. etc." If you wanted to look for God and went to look for him, he would reveal himself to you. Understanding of how to walk the Christian walk comes AFTER you accept God as your Lord and master. How else would non-Christians be expected to get to know and follow God? 4. About babies being killed: I don't see what you're looking for here. Miracles for every baby that would be killed otherwise? Man kills the babies with his own sinful will. 5. About the robots: If the thing to love was in their genes, then it wouldn't exactly be a choice. Could you explain more about how religion makes robots? What I see in some of my fellow Christians is that they saw God's love and wanted to get to know him, which led them to live the Christian life. 6. True, that. People without Jesus go to hell. However, those rainforest guys do get chances. Have you ever seen that movie "End of the Spear" or something based on a true story? Those guys got a son of a missionary that they spear'd to lead them to Jesus. Btw, I respect that you don't understand Christianity. Nothing wrong with that at all. [/hide] (1) Your points 1 and 2 contradict each other, in point 1 you say that God will judge the baby by how he would act out his life if he was born. Yet in point 2, you say we have free will? The free will I'm talking about is not the kind of a chose, it's the free will of weather God knows what will happen to me when I die before my birth. (2) I have tried to seek God, still I haven't found him. If I'm totally honest , a part of me wishes I did believe in God, then maybe I'd feel the joy you do when worshipping him. However due to my logical mind set, I can't grasp something illogical. (3) I'm talking about fairness for everyone, which is what the bible says when it claims that we all get free will, yet that child has no free will in it being born into poverty. (4) My remark of being a robot was aimed at the activity of some Christians i.e. they do most things the same i.e. Follow the same rules, go the same places, socialise with same people, discriminate the same people. (5)I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment, however I have heard of missionaries having trouble communicating with people in the rainforest, because of the language barrier etc.. However a part of me thinks religion will actually stabilise those parts of the world.

Where does it say that? Can somebody give me a quote or tell me where i have to look? 2 Thessalonians Ch1 V8-9.

(1) No I intend to judge the entire Christian faith on the book they use as basis for their faith (2)Because I know most about that religion, and can therefore draw better arguments against it. (3) I'm disagreeing with a religion because it doesn't make sense to me, so I have a right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with and maybe someone will prove me wrong.

I don't hate it, I just don't understand it.

usually an OF forum is designed to discuss things, and it's not a war its an argument of both sides, just what they do in politics to solve problems. I respect religion, I just don't understand some aspects of it. @Everyone. Please don't make this a flame war, I actually want to keep this topic open, as it may open eyes for few people.

(1) The thing I mean about a child being unique is, every child is different but every child means the same to God - from the biblical point of view. This I challenge as being wrong since, I'm getting a fair shot at life whereas a child born into starvation gets 0 chance of being successful in life, it just isn't fair. (2) God does influence that choice, since he did make me, therefore he planned my life. Yes I know I can make choices during my lifetime, but god knows the ultimate choice, since he is God. I don't have to cross the line to be punished, I don't have to kill anyone. To be punished according to the Bible I can live a perfectly normal life, leave all my money to a charity before I die and still go to be tormented in hell, just because I don't understand the whole concept of Christianity. Well obviously that doesn't prove his love to me, as I see people babies (which he created) being killed for nothing that they have done to deserve. Funny you should mention robots because that's exactly what religion makes people, think the same, do the same things. Back to your point, if I was ever meant to be God and wanted people to love me I'd just make them love me in their genes ever since they're born. The category 'Bible doesn't say' that's a new one, in fact you can get away with anything by using that phrase. Tbh the bible does say what's going to happen, lets look at what the bible DOES say. Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus and accept him as their saviour WILL go to hell.

(1)I was in no way referring to the beliefs of each sect, merely pointing out that not all of them are intolerant of other beliefs (or lack thereof). No, it is not hypocritical at all for him to say that, because according to Catholic beliefs contraceptives are interfering with the natural gift of sex (a couple who are going to have sex must be open to life) and are sinful, instead we encourage chastity. (2) He's not being hypocritical, because Catholics have their own way of preventing AIDS. (1) Fair enough, but that still doesn't answer my challenges made in OP. (2) I know this is going off topic, but can you pm me the "Catholics" way of preventing AIDS?

Really. What's the point of making this? You say that you take issue with Christians pressing their beliefs on you -- isn't that a rather hypocritical statement if you turn around and make a thread bashing Christianity? And you do realize that Christianity encompasses a wide range of religions? It's including all protestant religions as well. So you're stereotyping a lot of people when you accuse Christians of forcing beliefs upon others. When as a matter of fact most don't. Catholics are mostly tolerant if not entirely indifferent to others' beliefs. I should know, I am one. It's those Baptists you have to watch out for. (Kidding, kidding. . . Or am I :shock: ) @Bubsa; I think you missed the point of this thread, I'm saying or at least trying to say the problems I have with Christianity, these problems stop me believing it. It's different to Christianity having issues with me as I'm not the one trying to get people to follow my moral values if such. I had a good read of the forum, and I for one love reading debates. It may be provocative but so what? I want answers as do a lot of other people, and to get answers you have to ask question. Oh and 1billion kids believe in Santa and the tooth fairy. enough said. Seriously if you don't like this thread so much, and have no argument to bring to the topic being discussed. Be the better man. @N0M_AN0R It may be hypocritical in your opinion, in mine it's a retaliation a defence mechanism, if someone or something is trying to make me believe something, and I don't understand. Then I ask for an explanation to help me understand. I do realise that Christianity has a lot of sects, but they all get their information for those sects forms from the same book The Bible. You say Catholics are the most tolerant? When the pope says Aids is bad and then condemns the use of contraceptives? That's also hypocritical.

I know there is a thread about the bible, however I do think this deserves its own topic. Some personal information; My mother became a born again Christian 4 years ago, which totally changed her, but she seems happy enough so IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m not worried about that. However when she and people alike try to force their religion on me I get very annoyed. And I just canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t grasp how they believe in The Bible and base their whole lives around it. Now I went to a Christian school, got an A in my religious studies (marks gospel, and issue paper) So I know the bible, I also get forced to go to church every Sunday. Anyway I will proceed with the things I canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t understand and the things I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t understand I usually donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe. (1) The issue of free will: When God made man, he gave him free will so that man would chose whether to follow God or reject him. However this is where it fails, it says free will for every manÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ But thatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s not true, since not everyone has free will on this earth: A simple example of a baby being born with aids, and then dying 2 weeks later, where is his free will? I can accept that his parents had free will to have sex, but why should his free will be taken away from him? He suffers from their free will? (2) So therefore the child isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t unique? The Bible tells us about each person being unique to God and that God knows the plans for our lives even before we are born. (And if you tell me he doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t then your limiting God) (3) So God knew the plan for my life before I was born, fine so he knew I was going to go to hell -- then why did he make me? DoesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t seem to be the God of love now? (4) The whole basis of a God making a human is bizarre, he makes us for what: Entertainment, company, friendship??? And the guys that donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t want to be his friend he condemns to hell?? (5)Then he sends his son, who is a reincarnation of him.. To die for our sins? Great so now he makes this creation, and he fell in love with it so much that he dies for it (he didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹Ãât even have to)ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ Ehm, HereÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s me thinking God is all mighty, why would he die for us the people he created? To put it into laymen terms itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s like you dying for your Runescape account. (6) Then of course, when we die and if we donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t accept Jesus as our saviour we get sent down to hell for eternal torture, well thanks GOD I didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t ask you to make meÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ now you going to put me to hell. Thanks! Oh and also a thanks from my friends in the rainforest, who never even heard of you. Ah well always look at the bright side; at least IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ll have some interesting people there.

Jeff Buckley's version of 'Hallelujah' Samuel Barber's 'Adagio for strings'

Lyra, for D/c all the time; Nick- don't ask why Aaron - =] Suzi