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What's the point of the magic short bow? (Editted)


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33 replies to this topic

#21
fenrir321
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Edit: after doing some number crunching and logical reasoning, I have concluded that despite the overwhelming cost of the crystal bow, after it's fifth charge the crystal bow is actually in proportion with the rune crossbow in cost/damage and even doing more damage than the crossbow with broad bolts. This makes the crystal bow (with the "switcheroo bow" trick) the best to grind in training range. I have abandoned the msb rant/argument because of my ridiculous overlook (msb is a lvl 50 weapon and the rune crossbow a lvl 61 weapon.) Therefore, there really is nothing left to do with the rant except anything opinionated (e.g. I think shortbows should be updated to at least be more more common for the poorer class, like a lunar ring to the seer's ring, a torso to the bandos chestplate, an obsidian sword + zerker necklace to the saradomin sword, etc.)




All of you seem to forget a handy little fact: MSB is MORE expensive then rune crossbow. Also, my damage calculations are putting rune crossbow ahead of MSB in terms of cost, specifically that the 6k XP difference doesn't make up for the cost unless you earn over 1.45m per hour, in which case you should be using chinchompas to train anyway. Let's see the numbers you used, and I'll point out where you messed up.


If the numbers you're looking for are the msb + adamant arrows vs rune crossbow + broad bolts/adamant bolts, I have a [hide] damage table over the course of the (hypothetical) time/cycle in the first post.

If you're talking about the crystal bow vs rune cbow + broad bolts, here are my calculations for the crystal bow damage output > cbow damage output:



99 range:

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle





I already agreed with the fact that msb is more expensive in terms of gp/ammo/damage.

And I completely forgot about red chins :wall: :wall: which are obviously the best exp/hour. I was saying the crystal bow is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.



In the first sentence you said the msb is more expensive. But in the second sentence you said the crossbow is ahead in cost. "Ahead" in the meaning of more costly to use (therefore worse), or ahead in the meaning of more advantageous (cheaper)? I just tend to get hung up on words sometimes. But that aside, are you using weaker hitting ammo in the calculations that has better damage per gp (like maybe iron or steel) instead of going all out with adamant or rune?
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#22
compfreak847
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99 range:

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle


What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.



is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.


And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.
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GWD drops: 14,000x Bars, 1x Armadyl Hilt, 2x Armadyl Skirt, 4x Sara Sword, 1x Saradomin Hilt, 8x Bandos Hilt, 8x Bandos Platebody, 9x Bandos Tassets, 4x Bandos Boots, 43x Godsword Shard, 82x Dragon Boots
Dry streak records: Saradomin 412 kills Bandos 988 kills Spirit Mages 633 kills - Slayer Sucks

#23
fenrir321
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99 range:

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle


What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.



is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.


And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.


Meh I got lazy that calculation.

You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o



After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before).





Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(
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#24
compfreak847
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99 range:

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle


What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.



is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.


And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.


Meh I got lazy that calculation.

You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o



After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before).





Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(







99 range:

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle


What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.



is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.


And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.


Meh I got lazy that calculation.

You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o



After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before).





Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(


Your still basing your arguments completely off of max hits. Average hits arn't half of the max, you need to do a detailed hit spread for each weapon before you can determine the average hit. Also, rune crossbow is more accurate then crystal bow, and the slow speed means it hits more often then crystal bows rapid 0s.



That being said, you came to the right conclusion dispute incorrect data, so I'll let it rest.



Also, sorry if I came across as a jerk, I always sound that way when arguing (or so I'm told) :lol:



Thanks for handling it in a mature manner :)
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GWD drops: 14,000x Bars, 1x Armadyl Hilt, 2x Armadyl Skirt, 4x Sara Sword, 1x Saradomin Hilt, 8x Bandos Hilt, 8x Bandos Platebody, 9x Bandos Tassets, 4x Bandos Boots, 43x Godsword Shard, 82x Dragon Boots
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#25
fenrir321
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Ok, but just for future reference, how would you calculate a damage spread? I was going by average of the max hti since I assume that each damage point has an equal chance of appearing on damage splat.



Also, the rune crossbow is +92 ranged attack and the crystal bow is +100 (I was using a second "dud" crystal bow in the calculation to keep the first "recorded" one's max hit at a constant and not degraded factor).
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#26
compfreak847
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Ok, but just for future reference, how would you calculate a damage spread? I was going by average of the max hti since I assume that each damage point has an equal chance of appearing on damage splat.


It doesn't. You have to spend a few dozen hours recording each hit of the weapon, then log it and graph it to see the frequency of each hit and calculate the average.



Also, the rune crossbow is +92 ranged attack and the crystal bow is +100 (I was using a second "dud" crystal bow in the calculation to keep the first "recorded" one's max hit at a constant and not degraded factor).


Doesn't matter. Range bonus isn't the whole story. Ammo type plays the biggest role.
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#27
fenrir321
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Also, the rune crossbow is +92 ranged attack and the crystal bow is +100 (I was using a second "dud" crystal bow in the calculation to keep the first "recorded" one's max hit at a constant and not degraded factor).


Doesn't matter. Range bonus isn't the whole story. Ammo type plays the biggest role.


How does ammo play a role in accuracy if it only gives ranged strength?
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#28
compfreak847
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Also, the rune crossbow is +92 ranged attack and the crystal bow is +100 (I was using a second "dud" crystal bow in the calculation to keep the first "recorded" one's max hit at a constant and not degraded factor).


Doesn't matter. Range bonus isn't the whole story. Ammo type plays the biggest role.


How does ammo play a role in accuracy if it only gives ranged strength?


Shoot 1000 bronze bolts then 1000 rune bolts and come back to me with the results -.-
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#29
fenrir321
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I don't have the resources to just spend a mill or two of gp on pure testing, so I'll just take your word for it. :-#

But since you do, does that mean that bronze bolts hit more often than rune bolts or the other way around?
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#30
compfreak847
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I don't have the resources to just spend a mill or two of gp on pure testing, so I'll just take your word for it. :-#

But since you do, does that mean that bronze bolts hit more often than rune bolts or the other way around?


Other way around... majorly.
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GWD drops: 14,000x Bars, 1x Armadyl Hilt, 2x Armadyl Skirt, 4x Sara Sword, 1x Saradomin Hilt, 8x Bandos Hilt, 8x Bandos Platebody, 9x Bandos Tassets, 4x Bandos Boots, 43x Godsword Shard, 82x Dragon Boots
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#31
bronzewarrior
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i use it while pking because nubs think i'm a nub... but I use msb then (almost like a 2h) dclaw spec them down :thumbsup: .
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#32
fenrir321
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k, thanks for the info compfreak. I'll tuck that away when I need to fight a boss or when I'm pking. :<img src=:' />
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#33
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MSB's are good if you don't want somebody to recoil high hits back onto you with a veng.
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#34
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What's the point of a rune battle axe? Everything is going to be obsolete one day, even your godsword.




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