What's the point of the magic short bow? (Editted)

[fenrir321]

NEW: see edit at bottom of post

 

 

 

OLD:

 

+69 ranged attack pales in comparison to the rune crossbow +92 ranged attack.

 

 

 

At lvl 80 range:

 

The adpc (average damage per cycle*) of a short bow with adamant arrows is 45.5

 

The adpc of a crossbow with broad or adamant bolts is 57.5

 

 

 

I remember when the short bow was used in EVERY ranged pking fight. Now it's rarely used.

 

Why should it be?

 

 

 

Crossbows have:

 

Significantly greater ranged attack

 

significantly greater mdpc

 

allow the use of a shield

 

bolts hit harder per use

 

bolts have special abilities

 

bolts are cheaper training methods (bone and broad) while the equivalent arrow is not only much weaker but more expensive

 

 

 

Because short bows are much faster than crossbows they have one pro:

 

In the short term, they can pile up damage (in less than one cycle) more quickly than a crossbow (even more so with the msb special attack). [hide=Example]Let's say that a short bow shoots 7 times in 35 seconds and a crossbow 5 times in 35 seconds, both are on rapid (hence the 7 and 5 instead of 6 and 4 respective speeds.)

 

Using rune arrows and bolts: 16 max and 25 max respectively. Assuming they hit the max all times:

 

 

 

5 seconds sb-16 cb- 0

 

7 seconds sb-16 cb- 25

 

10 seconds sb- 32 cb- 25

 

14 seconds sb- 32 cb- 50

 

15 seconds sb- 48 cb- 50

 

20 seconds sb- 64 cb- 50

 

21 seconds sb- 64 cb 75

 

25 seconds sb- 80 cb 75

 

28 seconds sb- 80 cb- 100

 

30 seconds sb- 96 cb- 100

 

35 seconds sb- 112 cb- 125

 

 

 

In some instances, the short bow outhits the crossbow, but the crossbow catches up in the later part of the damage cycles and wins by a substantial amount[/hide]

 

 

 

It makes me wonder why I even carry an msb in my bank. Probably for aesthetic reasons, but that aside, it's wasting space.

 

 

 

*Average damage per cycle is ascertained through multiplying the average hit (max divided by two)of a weapon by the speed.

 

Example: Max hit of a whip for me is 28 normally. So, 14 x 6 = 84 adpc. (Speed multiplier is derived from the "cooldown" timing e.g. msb on rapid will hit 7 times by the time the whip hits 6 and by the time the longsword hits 5.)

 

 

 

 

 

Something that I need to state for future posts:

 

I have NO quarrel with better equipment. I am in full agreement that just because adamant armor is older than rune armor doens't mean it should be rebalanced to be in equal with rune. I DO have a quarrel when weapon in a lower tier of levels out performs a weapon in a HIGHER tier (rune c'bow out hits the crystal bow with cheaper ammunition than the "Crystal arrows").

 

 

 

Edit: Compfreak has pointed out my math errors and therefore completely destroying the argument that the crystal bow is better than the rune cbow in grinding. I have abandoned the msb rant/argument because of my ridiculous overlook (msb is a lvl 50 weapon and the rune crossbow a lvl 61 weapon.) Therefore, there really is nothing left to do with the rant except anything opinionated (e.g. I think shortbows and the crystal bow should be updated to at least be more more common for the poorer class, like a lunar ring to the seer's ring, a torso to the bandos chestplate, an obsidian sword + zerker necklace to the saradomin sword, etc.)

 

 

 

Essentially, Compfreak's calculations point out how ridiculously pathetic the msb and the crystal bow are. Therefore, they actually reinforce the whole point of the rant: asking why the heck do people use them if they suck so badly? :lol:

[Vuvuzela]

Long ago, before crossbows were made. People used magic short bows to train and pk with.

[HOSTiLE_KAi]

I guess msb was just a stepping stone. The accuracy is non-comparable with rune c'bow/ bone bow which you've mentioned. At the end, it is its cheap cost (the weapon, not the ammo) and special attack that is noteworthy, not use-worthy in limited situations (such as war requirement or being silly and not using c'bow).

[fenrir321]

Long ago, before crossbows were made. People used magic short bows to train and pk with.

 

I know that, I remember it clearly. My question is "why has Jagex made short bows *almost* completely obsolete?"

 

 

 

I guess msb was just a stepping stone. The accuracy is non-comparable with rune c'bow/ bone bow which you've mentioned. At the end, it is its cheap cost (the weapon, not the ammo) and special attack that is noteworthy, not use-worthy in limited situations (such as war requirement or being silly and not using c'bow).

 

Yes, the cost of the short bow and ammunition is cheaper (depending on the ammunition) than a rune crossbow and it's bolts.

 

However, since people are willing to risk dragon claws without 1 or 3 iteming, the cost is negligible.

 

 

 

As for the special attack, although I may have been more "supportive" of the special attack, remember that most battles will last longer than a single "cycle" and the special attack will require several before it will be at 55% again.

 

Also, diamond bolts are extremely hard hitting, as well as dragon bolts; my damage calculation does not take into account those special abilities. Considering that at best the special attack (at 80 range) will hit a 32 (which is EXTREMELY rare), even then a crossbow is more efficient damage-wise.

[pureprayer]

Same with longswords, maces, sq shields, chain bodies (with exceptions), and war hammers.

[compfreak847]

Long ago, before crossbows were made. People used magic short bows to train and pk with.

 

I know that, I remember it clearly. My question is "why has Jagex made short bows *almost* completely obsolete?"

 

Why has Jagex made the dragon scimitar 'almost' completely obsolete? There can only be one best weapon, and one must be replaced to make room at the top.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

[warrior5024]

I love the magic short. It's great for combos, fairly accurate, and it can hit as fast an an opponent can heal. Also, after some field tests, I've found it to be the perfect weapon to fight back Dragon Clawer's, combine with Veng.

[fenrir321]

Long ago, before crossbows were made. People used magic short bows to train and pk with.

 

I know that, I remember it clearly. My question is "why has Jagex made short bows *almost* completely obsolete?"

 

Why has Jagex made the dragon scimitar 'almost' completely obsolete? There can only be one best weapon, and one must be replaced to make room at the top.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

 

Good point, but surely there's room for another weapon at the top?

 

Even if the short bow were to be given the same adpc as a crossbow, it's still both two-handed and has ridiculously lower ranged attack.

 

 

 

A long time peeve is the crystal bow. If the crystal bow had a higher max hit (35% of the ranged level at fully charged instead of 25%) then I would have no complaints with it comparing it to the rune crossbow. The crystal bow is rarely used even though it's completely 1 itemable. I have a higher adpc with a rune crossbow and broad bolts, broad bolts are a hell of a lot cheaper, and the accuracy of the rune c'bow is only slightly worse up until about 7/10 charges. There's a problem with that when the weapon is lvl 61 and the ammunition is 55 range when the crystal bow is 70 range.

 

 

 

edt: thanks for the page, now I have a proper term for the process :D.

[compfreak847]

 

Good point, but surely there's room for another weapon at the top?

 

Even if the short bow were to be given the same adpc as a crossbow, it's still both two-handed and has ridiculously lower ranged attack.

 

 

 

A long time peeve is the crystal bow. If the crystal bow had a higher max hit (35% of the ranged level at fully charged instead of 25%) then I would have no complaints with it comparing it to the rune crossbow. The crystal bow is rarely used even though it's completely 1 itemable. I have a higher adpc with a rune crossbow and broad bolts, broad bolts are a hell of a lot cheaper, and the accuracy of the rune c'bow is only slightly worse up until about 7/10 charges. There's a problem with that when the weapon is lvl 61 and the ammunition is 55 range when the crystal bow is 70 range.

 

 

 

edt: thanks for the page, now I have a proper term for the process :D.

 

It doesn't matter how you try to balance it. It either deals less damage per minute then the 'best' weapon, and is never used, or it deals more and is always used in place of the 'best'. There's only room for one at the top\best, by definition.

[fenrir321]

 

Good point, but surely there's room for another weapon at the top?

 

Even if the short bow were to be given the same adpc as a crossbow, it's still both two-handed and has ridiculously lower ranged attack.

 

 

 

A long time peeve is the crystal bow. If the crystal bow had a higher max hit (35% of the ranged level at fully charged instead of 25%) then I would have no complaints with it comparing it to the rune crossbow. The crystal bow is rarely used even though it's completely 1 itemable. I have a higher adpc with a rune crossbow and broad bolts, broad bolts are a hell of a lot cheaper, and the accuracy of the rune c'bow is only slightly worse up until about 7/10 charges. There's a problem with that when the weapon is lvl 61 and the ammunition is 55 range when the crystal bow is 70 range.

 

 

 

edt: thanks for the page, now I have a proper term for the process :D.

 

It doesn't matter how you try to balance it. It either deals less damage per minute then the 'best' weapon, and is never used, or it deals more and is always used in place of the 'best'. There's only room for one at the top\best, by definition.

 

Sorry, I need to be more clea rin what I'm ranting about.

 

You are right; it's either the best damage dealer or it's not.

 

However, that doesn't mean there can't be trade-offs. As I've stated before, the crossbow is the best damage dealer as well as having cheap ammunition. It both outhits the crystal bow and at a cheaper price per shot. Aside from that, there's also the issue of being on a lower tier. Meh, I should probably be comparing the dark bow to the run c'bow or the crystal bow to the rune c'bow since the msb is on a lower level tier and therefore should hit lower. :wall:

[llamster]

 

Good point, but surely there's room for another weapon at the top?

 

Even if the short bow were to be given the same adpc as a crossbow, it's still both two-handed and has ridiculously lower ranged attack.

 

 

 

A long time peeve is the crystal bow. If the crystal bow had a higher max hit (35% of the ranged level at fully charged instead of 25%) then I would have no complaints with it comparing it to the rune crossbow. The crystal bow is rarely used even though it's completely 1 itemable. I have a higher adpc with a rune crossbow and broad bolts, broad bolts are a hell of a lot cheaper, and the accuracy of the rune c'bow is only slightly worse up until about 7/10 charges. There's a problem with that when the weapon is lvl 61 and the ammunition is 55 range when the crystal bow is 70 range.

 

 

 

edt: thanks for the page, now I have a proper term for the process :D.

 

It doesn't matter how you try to balance it. It either deals less damage per minute then the 'best' weapon, and is never used, or it deals more and is always used in place of the 'best'. There's only room for one at the top\best, by definition.

 

Sorry, I need to be more clea rin what I'm ranting about.

 

You are right; it's either the best damage dealer or it's not.

 

However, that doesn't mean there can't be trade-offs. As I've stated before, the crossbow is the best damage dealer as well as having cheap ammunition. It both outhits the crystal bow and at a cheaper price per shot. Aside from that, there's also the issue of being on a lower tier. Meh, I should probably be comparing the dark bow to the run c'bow or the crystal bow to the rune c'bow since the msb is on a lower level tier and therefore should hit lower. :wall:

 

 

 

Calling it a cost/power tradeoff is just oversimplifying it; you could create an efficiency formula and just plug in the rate of your best income source to see which is better. If the income level required for one weapon to be more effective than the other is easily obtainable by most players, then it will be like compfreak said and only that will be used.

 

 

 

Besides you can use the crystal bow 'glitch' (not against the rules) to keep it at 10/10 most of the time. Fire 249 shots, or as close as you can without going over, and switch to a second bow. The second bow will degrade and not the first.

[compfreak847]

 

Sorry, I need to be more clea rin what I'm ranting about.

 

You are right; it's either the best damage dealer or it's not.

 

However, that doesn't mean there can't be trade-offs. As I've stated before, the crossbow is the best damage dealer as well as having cheap ammunition. It both outhits the crystal bow and at a cheaper price per shot. Aside from that, there's also the issue of being on a lower tier. Meh, I should probably be comparing the dark bow to the run c'bow or the crystal bow to the rune c'bow since the msb is on a lower level tier and therefore should hit lower. :wall:

 

Tiers really don't matter. Requirements are not the end all be all of damage rates.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Before the waxing of Crossbows, the MSB was the holy grail of Range. (If you look back, you can ironically debate the inverse view of the point of crossbows...) Today, it has little use, but I do find it somewhat useful in situations where a crossbow is too painfully slow, although I haven't trained Range in nigh three years. I suppose it's there for a faster damage alternative to crossbows...I think...

[compfreak847]

Before the waxing of Crossbows, the MSB was the holy grail of Range. (If you look back, you can ironically debate the inverse view of the point of crossbows...) Today, it has little use, but I do find it somewhat useful in situations where a crossbow is too painfully slow, although I haven't trained Range in nigh three years. I suppose it's there for a faster damage alternative to crossbows...I think...

 

If it were faster damage, it would still be king. It isn't.

[quelmotz]

It is obvious that new content will usually outdo old content, but Jagex had better look into why the scimitar is the best of the lot of weapons that were released at the same time if I am not wrong. Don't repeat to me your cliche "there can be only one best weapon", there can be more than one (in a particular combat style only). For instance: Weapon A, a crushing weapon with say +10 crush attack and +10 strength. Weapon B, a stabbing weapon, with +10 stab attack and +10 strength. There will perform equally on a monster with equal stab and crush defence, but the crushing weapon will perform better on a monster weak against crush and vice versa. The only thing that will have to be changed is the number of monsters weak against crush/stab/slash-make them equal. And introduce equal powered armor that defends very well against a particular attack style.

 

 

 

Or just get rid of this stupid system.

[Itsjustagame]

what's up rs2 product?

[Alg]

I always think of them as having almost found the balance between a slow power weaopn and a fast weaker one. They couldn't do it with 2h swords over scimitars, but they did it a bit too well on this one.

 

Inb4_rs2_pr0duct!!1!, as it's bound to happen :lol: . This is rs2, not classic/1.

[pureprayer]

Inb4_rs2_pr0duct!!1!, as it's bound to happen :lol: . This is rs2, not classic/1.

 

Late.

[Alg]

Inb4_rs2_pr0duct!!1!, as it's bound to happen :lol: . This is rs2, not classic/1.

 

Late.

 

I know. I meant at my comment :lol: . I got the idea from the post above.

[compfreak847]

It is obvious that new content will usually outdo old content, but Jagex had better look into why the scimitar is the best of the lot of weapons that were released at the same time if I am not wrong. Don't repeat to me your cliche "there can be only one best weapon", there can be more than one (in a particular combat style only). For instance: Weapon A, a crushing weapon with say +10 crush attack and +10 strength. Weapon B, a stabbing weapon, with +10 stab attack and +10 strength. There will perform equally on a monster with equal stab and crush defence, but the crushing weapon will perform better on a monster weak against crush and vice versa. The only thing that will have to be changed is the number of monsters weak against crush/stab/slash-make them equal. And introduce equal powered armor that defends very well against a particular attack style.

 

 

 

Or just get rid of this stupid system.

 

And that helps what with MSB vs. crossbow?

 

 

 

 

Edit: after doing some number crunching and logical reasoning, I have concluded that despite the overwhelming cost of the crystal bow, after it's fifth charge the crystal bow is actually in proportion with the rune crossbow in cost/damage and even doing more damage than the crossbow with broad bolts. This makes the crystal bow (with the "switcheroo bow" trick) the best to grind in training range. I have abandoned the msb rant/argument because of my ridiculous overlook (msb is a lvl 50 weapon and the rune crossbow a lvl 61 weapon.) Therefore, there really is nothing left to do with the rant except anything opinionated (e.g. I think shortbows should be updated to at least be more more common for the poorer class, like a lunar ring to the seer's ring, a torso to the bandos chestplate, an obsidian sword + zerker necklace to the saradomin sword, etc.)

 

 

 

All of you seem to forget a handy little fact: MSB is MORE expensive then rune crossbow. Also, my damage calculations are putting rune crossbow ahead of MSB in terms of cost, specifically that the 6k XP difference doesn't make up for the cost unless you earn over 1.45m per hour, in which case you should be using chinchompas to train anyway. Let's see the numbers you used, and I'll point out where you messed up.

[fenrir321]

 

Edit: after doing some number crunching and logical reasoning, I have concluded that despite the overwhelming cost of the crystal bow, after it's fifth charge the crystal bow is actually in proportion with the rune crossbow in cost/damage and even doing more damage than the crossbow with broad bolts. This makes the crystal bow (with the "switcheroo bow" trick) the best to grind in training range. I have abandoned the msb rant/argument because of my ridiculous overlook (msb is a lvl 50 weapon and the rune crossbow a lvl 61 weapon.) Therefore, there really is nothing left to do with the rant except anything opinionated (e.g. I think shortbows should be updated to at least be more more common for the poorer class, like a lunar ring to the seer's ring, a torso to the bandos chestplate, an obsidian sword + zerker necklace to the saradomin sword, etc.)

 

 

 

All of you seem to forget a handy little fact: MSB is MORE expensive then rune crossbow. Also, my damage calculations are putting rune crossbow ahead of MSB in terms of cost, specifically that the 6k XP difference doesn't make up for the cost unless you earn over 1.45m per hour, in which case you should be using chinchompas to train anyway. Let's see the numbers you used, and I'll point out where you messed up.

 

If the numbers you're looking for are the msb + adamant arrows vs rune crossbow + broad bolts/adamant bolts, I have a [hide] damage table over the course of the (hypothetical) time/cycle in the first post.

 

If you're talking about the crystal bow vs rune cbow + broad bolts, here are my calculations for the crystal bow damage output > cbow damage output:

 

 

 

99 range:

 

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

 

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle

 

 

 

 

 

I already agreed with the fact that msb is more expensive in terms of gp/ammo/damage.

 

And I completely forgot about red chins :wall: :wall: which are obviously the best exp/hour. I was saying the crystal bow is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.

 

 

 

In the first sentence you said the msb is more expensive. But in the second sentence you said the crossbow is ahead in cost. "Ahead" in the meaning of more costly to use (therefore worse), or ahead in the meaning of more advantageous (cheaper)? I just tend to get hung up on words sometimes. But that aside, are you using weaker hitting ammo in the calculations that has better damage per gp (like maybe iron or steel) instead of going all out with adamant or rune?

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

99 range:

 

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

 

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle

 

What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.

 

 

 

is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.

 

And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.

[fenrir321]

 

 

 

99 range:

 

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

 

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle

 

What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.

 

 

 

is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.

 

And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.

 

Meh I got lazy that calculation.

 

You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o

 

 

 

After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before).

 

 

 

 

 

Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

99 range:

 

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

 

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle

 

What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.

 

 

 

is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.

 

And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.

 

Meh I got lazy that calculation.

 

You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o

 

 

 

After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before).

 

 

 

 

 

Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(

 

 

 

 

99 range:

 

Crystal bow max = 25 x 6 speed = 150 max damage per cycle

 

Broad bolt max = 28 x 5 speed = 140 max damage per cycle

 

What? Your basing your argument completely off maxes? Have you completely forgotten about hit spreads and accuracy? You can't magically add maxes and come up with DPM, especially when they contradict my actual RW results.

 

 

 

is best "cheap" way to grind since it can cost 72-360 gp per shot where as red chins cost in the several millions to gain good exp. I'll go change that in the edit.

 

And crossbow is 11 GP per shot, but 6k XP less. Crystal bow is 98k per hour more for 6k XP, given that 180k range XP can be obtained per hour for free at chins + avansies, it would require 2,940,000 GP per hour to make crystal bow better. Not only is that rate impossible, chinchompas would be laughably cheap compared to it.

 

Meh I got lazy that calculation.

 

You can neglect accuracy difference with a zamorak prayer book. And even you take the average damage of the crystal bow and broad bolts, their respective adpc comes out to be 75 and 70, respectively. But that purely assumes money is no object but not using red chins (completely contradictory) and there are multiple crystal bows for the bow switcheroo. Basically, it's a completely unrealistic situation. #-o

 

 

 

After doing some math, broad bolts are about 100% stronger than bronze opal bolts (something I didn't think of). Basically, that means killing monsters in half the time for ~6x the price or a ratio of 1:3. So, you blew me out of the water on that. Now that I see my error in cost per gp, the whole argument that the crystal bow is better has fallen apart completely and not just partially (as I thought before).

 

 

 

 

 

Meh, now my dream of owning a crystal bow seems stupid :(

 

Your still basing your arguments completely off of max hits. Average hits arn't half of the max, you need to do a detailed hit spread for each weapon before you can determine the average hit. Also, rune crossbow is more accurate then crystal bow, and the slow speed means it hits more often then crystal bows rapid 0s.

 

 

 

That being said, you came to the right conclusion dispute incorrect data, so I'll let it rest.

 

 

 

Also, sorry if I came across as a jerk, I always sound that way when arguing (or so I'm told) :lol:

 

 

 

Thanks for handling it in a mature manner :)

[fenrir321]

Ok, but just for future reference, how would you calculate a damage spread? I was going by average of the max hti since I assume that each damage point has an equal chance of appearing on damage splat.

 

 

 

Also, the rune crossbow is +92 ranged attack and the crystal bow is +100 (I was using a second "dud" crystal bow in the calculation to keep the first "recorded" one's max hit at a constant and not degraded factor).