That would quite effectively explain why we've been having communication problems :-w

 

 

 

Yes, very. That was what I'd been saying for a few posts.

 

 

 

Are you talking about the limit itself, or that it was so low? I'll respond to both:

 

 

 

Limit itself: Hellooo, welcome to RWT world. It was a choice of either change the gameplay of a very tiny fraction of their userbase or shut down the game.

 

 

 

That it was so low: Very smart move. Even at 60k\h, the current max, a high level dueler would never find a max of 240k\h a decent income. Staking for money was completely killed irregardless of the limit, and they had to make sure no one was going to do the "limit every 15 minutes" type of trade.

 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with the limit itself, but with the number. Even 1 million/hour would've effectively killed RWT while keeping the stakers happy and in business. So why at 12k/hour?

 

 

 

So what? I'm biased towards smart people, because I believe their responses are generally better thought out then the village idiot. You can't go calling every fact that points out some groups of people are different bad because it's "biased"; bias is bad when taken to extremes, but it's also a fact of life.

 

 

 

The entire forum wasn't more mature; there were still idiots. When you're biased to the point of ignoring such a large group of people, it's not quite such a good idea.

 

 

 

Sorry, but you'll have to live with that. It's also condescending to say that Nigerians have a lower average income then USA households. I'm here to prove myself correct, not to make you feel good about yourself.

 

 

 

It's also not that great of etiquette in a debate -- it makes it sound more like you're attacking the other person than their points.

 

 

 

You weren't an active poster. When your posts were count, not how long you've been lurking.

 

 

 

What? How does it matter when my posts were? It's much more relevant what's in my posts and who I am rather than the fact that I wasn't a very active poster three years ago when I joined.

 

 

 

So what? I'm saying that this discussion strayed to immature flaming in 45 posts, something the old TIF was able to manage for far longer. It's a fact, not an opinion, about a group of people.

 

 

 

And other threads on the current TIF have managed to stay mature for longer. Again, selection bias, ignoring the fact that some current threads are capable of lasting longer as well.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the limit itself, but with the number. Even 1 million/hour would've effectively killed RWT while keeping the stakers happy and in business. So why at 12k/hour?

 

What are you talking about? 1m an hour would have killed RWT? I'm sorry, but that's simply ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The entire forum wasn't more mature; there were still idiots. When you're biased to the point of ignoring such a large group of people, it's not quite such a good idea.

 

But the forum overall was more mature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

 

 

 

 

It's also not that great of etiquette in a debate -- it makes it sound more like you're attacking the other person than their points.

 

I'm going to list all points relevant to my debate, regardless of how that makes you feel. You can take offense to me saying crime rates are higher in African-American neighborhoods, but I'm still going to use that as a relevant fact in a discussion.

 

 

 

 

What? How does it matter when my posts were? It's much more relevant what's in my posts and who I am rather than the fact that I wasn't a very active poster three years ago when I joined.

 

 

Point being? How does that affect the fact that 'average length to immature posts' was much greater several years ago?

 

 

 

 

And other threads on the current TIF have managed to stay mature for longer. Again, selection bias, ignoring the fact that some current threads are capable of lasting longer as well.

 

I haven't seen a single recent rants thread, and it's not as if I don't read most of them. Perhaps you could point one out for me.

What are you talking about? 1m an hour would have killed RWT? I'm sorry, but that's simply ludicrous.

 

 

 

So it'd be worth it to pay $20 then spend 4 hours in the Duel Arena winning one rigged duel every 15 minutes for 4 million gold?

 

 

 

But the forum overall was more mature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

 

 

 

You don't need to link me there -- I'm more than capable with mathematical definitions. And unless you've taken a large, random sample of posts from both now and however long ago you want to say that the boards were at their peak, you have no real evidence.

 

 

 

I'm going to list all points relevant to my debate, regardless of how that makes you feel. You can take offense to me saying crime rates are higher in African-American neighborhoods, but I'm still going to use that as a relevant fact in a discussion.

 

 

 

That wasn't a point relevant to the debate at all, which is why it was pointless. You phrased it as a personal attack rather than a point you were trying to make.

 

 

 

Point being? How does that affect the fact that 'average length to immature posts' was much greater several years ago?

 

 

 

Again, evidence for this?

 

 

 

I haven't seen a single recent rants thread, and it's not as if I don't read most of them. Perhaps you could point one out for me.

 

 

 

So now you're going to judge simply based on the rants forum? You can't just stamp your own criteria onto everything -- you're trying to use your own criteria where they don't apply in order to make your position more defensible.

 

 

 

But what the hell does this have to do with the topic in the first place? This has almost completely degenerated into off-topic arguments.

 

 

 

So it'd be worth it to pay $20 then spend 4 hours in the Duel Arena winning one rigged duel every 15 minutes for 4 million gold?

 

No, but it'd be worth it to spend 15 seconds losing a duel every 15 minutes for an average of 60,000,000 GP per hour. We're talking about people that can't make 250k per hour :roll:

 

 

 

 

You don't need to link me there -- I'm more than capable with mathematical definitions. And unless you've taken a large, random sample of posts from both now and however long ago you want to say that the boards were at their peak, you have no real evidence.

 

All I need to do is take the maximum mature post streak for, say, the past 2 months and compare it to several years ago. There's simply no comparison, whole threads used to go without the spam\flame we see nowdays. Like I said, I've spent hundreds of posts and months of debating with old-timers like Salim without a single insult having been thrown.

 

 

 

 

That wasn't a point relevant to the debate at all, which is why it was pointless. You phrased it as a personal attack rather than a point you were trying to make.[/quoite]

 

That's how you interpret it. It completely relates to maturity of now vs. then; it's a direct result of maturity overall.

 

 

 

Again, evidence for this?

 

See above.

 

 

 

 

So now you're going to judge simply based on the rants forum? You can't just stamp your own criteria onto everything -- you're trying to use your own criteria where they don't apply in order to make your position more defensible.

 

So what? I'm stating a personal opinion, that the Rants forum has gone downhill, and backing it up with facts (In this case, length between immature posts for a large period of time). As long as I'm not specifically tailoring it to suit my opinions, I can set requirements at whatever the hell I want.

 

 

 

But what the hell does this have to do with the topic in the first place? This has almost completely degenerated into off-topic arguments.

 

Nothing more to say about the topic. The bottom line is that we have the best possible system in place.

No, but it'd be worth it to spend 15 seconds losing a duel every 15 minutes for an average of 60,000,000 GP per hour. We're talking about people that can't make 250k per hour :roll:

 

 

 

People who don't have the patience to get the stats to make 250k an hour are going to do that for who knows how [bleep]ing long?

 

 

 

Also, given the current system (up to 60k/15 minutes), if you do what you just detailed up there, you could make an average of 14.4 million an hour. And RWT runs rampant, doesn't it?

 

 

 

Since the rest is completely off-topic, I'm leaving it alone. No need to make it worse.

 

People who don't have the patience to get the stats to make 250k an hour are going to do that for who knows how [bleep] long?

 

Not very long. At 60m an hour, they won't spend very long before their bank account (or their parents) is dry.

 

 

 

Also, given the current system (up to 60k/15 minutes), if you do what you just detailed up there, you could make an average of 14.4 million an hour. And RWT runs rampant, doesn't it?

 

Hate to break it to you, but most people with all quests done can make more then 250k\h =D>

 

 

 

 

Since the rest is completely off-topic, I'm leaving it alone. No need to make it worse.

 

Fine with me :P

Not very long. At 60m an hour, they won't spend very long before their bank account (or their parents) is dry.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing their money, I'm arguing their patience. It's no wonder no one can ever make a point with you -- you keep changing the argument.

 

 

 

Hate to break it to you, but most people with all quests done can make more then 250k\h =D>

 

 

 

What does that have to do with it? You could average 14.4 million an hour stopping by the Duel Arena every 15 minutes -- sounds a lot better than 250k/hour.

I'm not arguing their money, I'm arguing their patience.

 

Oh, so 60m an hour isn't good? If they don't have the patience for that, they should probably find another game.

 

 

 

It's no wonder no one can ever make a point with you -- you keep changing the argument.

 

Just because you can't understand my point doesn't give you the right to flame me with asinine statements that don't even apply.

 

 

 

What does that have to do with it? You could average 14.4 million an hour stopping by the Duel Arena every 15 minutes -- sounds a lot better than 250k/hour.

 

Except that they could be making 3m an hour steadily. The people making 250k\hour have 10k trade limits, not 60k =D>

Oh, so 60m an hour isn't good? If they don't have the patience for that, they should probably find another game.

 

 

 

I agree with that, but would those impatient people be able to figure that out?

 

 

 

Just because you can't understand my point doesn't give you the right to flame me with asinine statements that don't even apply.

 

 

 

You changed the argument from their patience to their bank account, which was only pushing this closer and closer to off-topic.

 

 

 

Except that they could be making 3m an hour steadily. The people making 250k\hour have 10k trade limits, not 60k =D>

 

 

 

Okay, what was going through your mind? 14.4 million is a lot more than 3 million, and you could even combine stopping off at the Duel Arena with, say, Runecrafting, to make sure that the time between duels isn't wasted. That would make more than 3 million on average.

I agree with that, but would those impatient people be able to figure that out?

 

Most would, the area between 250,000 and 60,000,000 is large enough for most people to see fairly easily.

 

 

 

You changed the argument from their patience to their bank account, which was only pushing this closer and closer to off-topic.

 

Both apply. When we're talking about a cost of 300$ an hour, it's not going to take many days of playing to either run out of patience or run out of money.

 

 

 

 

Okay, what was going through your mind? 14.4 million is a lot more than 3 million, and you could even combine stopping off at the Duel Arena with, say, Runecrafting, to make sure that the time between duels isn't wasted. That would make more than 3 million on average.

 

But would carry a large penalty of being banned, cost real world money, and is not required for these players - they have spent years playing for the levels, and obviously have the patience to earn their own money.

Most would, the area between 250,000 and 60,000,000 is large enough for most people to see fairly easily.

 

 

 

If they're impatient enough to want to buy their way through the game, I don't think they'd have enough patience to get all the duels/trades in needed for the 60 million. (One duel every 15 minutes for 60 straight hours)

 

 

 

Both apply. When we're talking about a cost of 300$ an hour, it's not going to take many days of playing to either run out of patience or run out of money.

 

 

 

It would take a lot longer to run out of money because, as said above, it would take 60 hours to make the trades that are worth $300. However, I believe that most people would run out of patience faster than that.

 

 

 

But would carry a large penalty of being banned, cost real world money, and is not required for these players - they have spent years playing for the levels, and obviously have the patience to earn their own money.

 

 

 

You do have a point there.

 

 

 

I just realized how far we strayed from my original point: the 3k/15 minutes was far more strict than was needed to stop RWT. I pulled out a random number and might have used one that was too large -- however, the original restriction was far stricter than was necessary.

 

If they're impatient enough to want to buy their way through the game, I don't think they'd have enough patience to get all the duels/trades in needed for the 60 million. (One duel every 15 minutes for 60 straight hours)

 

No worries, it's quite simple to program an undetectable autoer that simply duels every 15 minutes. Very hard to detect because of its simplicity.

 

 

 

 

It would take a lot longer to run out of money because, as said above, it would take 60 hours to make the trades that are worth $300. However, I believe that most people would run out of patience faster than that.

 

See above.

 

 

 

 

I just realized how far we strayed from my original point: the 3k/15 minutes was far more strict than was needed to stop RWT. I pulled out a random number and might have used one that was too large -- however, the original restriction was far stricter than was necessary.

 

Not really. Even 12k\h would be enough for 300k a day transfers; if someone didn't play for a week, they could easily transfer several million. However, Jagex decided they didn't need it that strict after it appeared no one would try and do that, and drastically lifted them.

 

 

 

That being said, why do we need anything over 60k? I really can't think of legitimate purposes that even 250k would solve.

No worries, it's quite simple to program an undetectable autoer that simply duels every 15 minutes. Very hard to detect because of its simplicity.

 

 

 

These people are patient enough to learn to program?

 

 

 

Even if you were to run that program, it requires days to get the money. The people who buy GP desire instant gratification, and therefore would be put off by the wait to receive their money -- at least, that's the person I see buying money.

 

 

 

Not really. Even 12k\h would be enough for 300k a day transfers; if someone didn't play for a week, they could easily transfer several million. However, Jagex decided they didn't need it that strict after it appeared no one would try and do that, and drastically lifted them.

 

 

 

That being said, why do we need anything over 60k? I really can't think of legitimate purposes that even 250k would solve.

 

 

 

If they didn't play for a week, they'd transfer just over 2 million. Not sure how worth it that is.

 

 

 

I'll ask you at this point: Do you think the 3k/15 minutes was too strict? And explain why. We got very sidetracked from my original point.

 

These people are patient enough to learn to program?

 

When did I ever say that? What on earth does programming have to do with double clicking an EXE file?

 

 

 

Even if you were to run that program, it requires days to get the money. The people who buy GP desire instant gratification, and therefore would be put off by the wait to receive their money -- at least, that's the person I see buying money.

 

Key difference: They don't have to be playing. They can do it during a time when they quit, and 24m for a day of not playing isn't bad - hell, they could earn 15m+ overnight\through school.

 

 

 

 

If they didn't play for a week, they'd transfer just over 2 million. Not sure how worth it that is.

 

 

 

I'll ask you at this point: Do you think the 3k/15 minutes was too strict? And explain why.

 

No, I don't. They didn't know how many people would simply macro to RWT; they had to kill it effectively the first time with strong measures, then relax them as they saw fit. There really wasn't any further reason that 6k or even 10k would fix, so it's not as if 3k instantly killed it.

When did I ever say that? What on earth does programming have to do with double clicking an EXE file?

 

 

 

The way you worded it first implied that they'd be doing the work for it -- at least, that's what I saw.

 

 

 

Key difference: They don't have to be playing. They can do it during a time when they quit, and 24m for a day of not playing isn't bad - hell, they could earn 15m+ overnight\through school.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_gratification

 

 

 

Deferred gratification or delayed gratification is the ability to wait in order to obtain something that one wants. This ability is usually considered to be a personality trait which is important for life success. Daniel Goleman has suggested that it is an important component of emotional intelligence. People who lack this trait are said to need instant gratification and may suffer from poor impulse control.

 

 

 

I doubt they'd like waiting even that long.

 

 

 

No, I don't. They didn't know how many people would simply macro to RWT; they had to kill it effectively the first time with strong measures, then relax them as they saw fit. There really wasn't any further reason that 6k or even 10k would fix, so it's not as if 3k instantly killed it.

 

 

 

Then there was no point in bring this up in the first place -- although I would think you're by far in the minority of people who think it wasn't overreacting.

 

 

 

Also, I said that the 1M/hour was a random number and might have been a bit too high -- why continue to use it? A more reasonable number could've still left dueling as a decent source of money/pastime with some money involved while destroying RWT through duels.

The way you worded it first implied that they'd be doing the work for it -- at least, that's what I saw.

 

 

Sorry you took it the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_gratification

 

Point being? They have to wait after clicking the login button, wait to buy members, and even leveling to 30-40 combat takes longer then overnight. Those who simply can't wait a few hours to be rich aren't playing this game in the first place.

 

 

 

I doubt they'd like waiting even that long.

 

See above. It wasn't as if before they submitted a request to a RWTer and recieved their gold 30 seconds later. Take a look on any of the old RWT websites, middleman negotiations could take days.

 

 

 

 

Then there was no point in bring this up in the first place -- although I would think you're by far in the minority of people who think it wasn't overreacting.

 

Oh, so now I'm wrong because people disagree with me?

 

 

 

 

Also, I said that the 1M/hour was a random number and might have been a bit too high -- why continue to use it? A more reasonable number could've still left dueling as a decent source of money/pastime with some money involved while destroying RWT through duels.

 

How so? If it's not enough money for someone who can only make 250k\h, how is it going to be enough for a high level dueler who spent thousands of hours perfecting methods (your example) and spends 200-300k per fight in runes alone? Old time stakers blew through millions of GP of runes in an hour, anything under 1m won an hour would be a huge loss for them.

Oh, so now I'm wrong because people disagree with me?

 

 

 

No, I was trying to bring it up as a flawed system -- since you think it wasn't flawed, the entire argument was worthless as you wouldn't see the point that I had (you could've told me that long ago and saved me a lot of time)

 

 

 

How so? If it's not enough money for someone who can only make 250k\h, how is it going to be enough for a high level dueler who spent thousands of hours perfecting methods (your example) and spends 200-300k per fight in runes alone? Old time stakers blew through millions of GP of runes in an hour, anything under 1m won an hour would be a huge loss for them.

 

 

 

I never did any mage staking, mostly because of the costs, so I can't argue for that. However, I was saying that it is entirely possible that it could've been left as a method of making money comparable to skills and still nearly eliminating RWT. Melee staking was essentially free when it came to supplies (compared to mage staking, you only needed a one-time investment of less than 2 million), and it is entirely possible to create a system where you could make a couple hundred thousand in an hour in that way without it being easily abused for RWT purposes. (In fact, were the trading cap with max QP raised, it would compete with quite a few skills for a good way of making money and still be nearly impossible to be abused for RWT.) (Yes, I know that that is unfair against mage stakers, but that's a different problem.)

 

No, I was trying to bring it up as a flawed system -- since you think it wasn't flawed, the entire argument was worthless as you wouldn't see the point that I had (you could've told me that long ago and saved me a lot of time)

 

Disagreeing with each of your points wasn't good enough? How are you supposed to have a debate when you think your opponent agrees with you?

 

 

 

I never did any mage staking, mostly because of the costs, so I can't argue for that. However, I was saying that it is entirely possible that it could've been left as a method of making money comparable to skills and still nearly eliminating RWT. Melee staking was essentially free when it came to supplies (compared to mage staking, you only needed a one-time investment of less than 2 million), and it is entirely possible to create a system where you could make a couple hundred thousand in an hour in that way without it being easily abused for RWT purposes. (In fact, were the trading cap with max QP raised, it would compete with quite a few skills for a good way of making money and still be nearly impossible to be abused for RWT.) (Yes, I know that that is unfair against mage stakers, but that's a different problem.)

 

Yeah, I don't recall any melee stakers either, and as mentioned before, anything coming anywhere close to the very high rates these stakers can commend would be laughably open to RWT.

Disagreeing with each of your points wasn't good enough? How are you supposed to have a debate when you think your opponent agrees with you?

 

 

 

I was trying to show that Jagex has made updates that weren't that well thought through -- I still disagree that it needed to be as harsh as 12k/hr to stop RWT. As you disagree with me on that, the rest of my argument would be pointless as we have no common ground to begin on.

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't recall any melee stakers either, and as mentioned before, anything coming anywhere close to the very high rates these stakers can commend would be laughably open to RWT.

 

 

 

What do you mean, "either"? When I decided to stake, it took me no more than a minute to find other people to melee stake.

 

 

 

Also, keep this in mind: I was not asking to have a system in which a staker could theoretically make 1M or more in 30 minutes or less (if I've done it, I know other people can do far better). I was simply asking for a system in which dueling would be a decent source of money without being so laughably low that it's abandoned.

 

I was trying to show that Jagex has made updates that weren't that well thought through -- I still disagree that it needed to be as harsh as 12k/hr to stop RWT. As you disagree with me on that, the rest of my argument would be pointless as we have no common ground to begin on.

 

Good thing they decided that too and changed it, no? That being said, basing a debate upon something that you both agree upon isn't generally a good idea. Much as I hate to break it to you, a debate usually takes place between people of differing opinions.

 

 

 

 

What do you mean, "either"? When I decided to stake, it took me no more than a minute to find other people to melee stake.

 

I'm talking about the pro stakers with the methods and tactics to win a round. Otherwise you end up with two people with equal stats fighting each other and losing and winning half the time, commending no profit whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

Also, keep this in mind: I was not asking to have a system in which a staker could theoretically make 1M or more in 30 minutes or less (if I've done it, I know other people can do far better). I was simply asking for a system in which dueling would be a decent source of money without being so laughably low that it's abandoned.

 

Which it would be anyway. To win duels often enough to make a good profit, it requires specialized tasks and a highly skilled and patient player - someone who certainly isn't going to be satisfied with 250k\h, and it would STILL allow RWT. Transferring 8m+ in one night when a player is gone is far to easy to RWT - that's 40-50 USD worth of gold, certainly less then most players purchase at one time!

Good thing they decided that too and changed it, no? That being said, basing a debate upon something that you both agree upon isn't generally a good idea. Much as I hate to break it to you, a debate usually takes place between people of differing opinions.

 

 

 

I'm glad they changed it, yes. Also, in a debate, there has to be some common ground that people have, some idea that they agree upon, otherwise no progress is ever made, as each is working with a set of assumptions that are very close to mutually exclusive (such as debates of people of different religions), therefore meaning that an understanding is next to impossible (as has been the case here, therefore I bow out here).

 

 

 

Which it would be anyway. To win duels often enough to make a good profit, it requires specialized tasks and a highly skilled and patient player - someone who certainly isn't going to be satisfied with 250k\h, and it would STILL allow RWT. Transferring 8m+ in one night when a player is gone is far to easy to RWT - that's 40-50 USD worth of gold, certainly less then most players purchase at one time!

 

 

 

Either I'm not being clear enough or you're not seeing my points -- in either case, I'm done here, as I have better uses for my time than being irritated to death.

 

I'm glad they changed it, yes. Also, in a debate, there has to be some common ground that people have, some idea that they agree upon, otherwise no progress is ever made, as each is working with a set of assumptions that are very close to mutually exclusive (such as debates of people of different religions), therefore meaning that an understanding is next to impossible (as has been the case here, therefore I bow out here).

 

Except we aren't arguing opinions, we're arguing facts.

 

 

 

 

Either I'm not being clear enough or you're not seeing my points -- in either case, I'm done here, as I have better uses for my time than being irritated to death.

 

I'm sorry, but I see only one possible way that post could be interpreted. Either your just copping out, or your intended response was completely different then what you wrote.

 

 

 

At any rate, my response addresses an issue you've raised many different times, so I'd appreciate a counter-argument to it :P

Thread says lock please for a reason :-w

Thread says lock please for a reason :-w

 

And the reason would be? Hemen edited it in on the second page before discussion potential was realized; as stated in viewtopic.php?f=90&t=785476, forum pages are not locked upon request alone. As long as the topic is reasonably spam free and on topic (as this thread has gone thus far), it will stay open.

So because youre stubborn you wont acknowledge his request. Gotcha.