Identity

[l0rd]

 

How do we not know that other animals (birds) have the mental capacity to question life like us. How do we not know that they think they're "superior" to us or question their existence as birds?

 

Birds aren't self-aware, meaning they don't have the capacity for introspection.

 

 

 

How do we know what birds know?

 

The frontal lobe is thought to be the epicenter for personality and cognition. In most animals, with exception to some mammals, the frontal lobe is almost nonexistent.

[Promise]

 

How do we not know that other animals (birds) have the mental capacity to question life like us. How do we not know that they think they're "superior" to us or question their existence as birds?

 

Birds aren't self-aware, meaning they don't have the capacity for introspection.

 

 

 

How do we know what birds know?

 

The frontal lobe is thought to be the epicenter for personality and cognition. In most animals, with exception to some mammals, the frontal lobe is almost nonexistent.

 

 

 

So more "smart" mammals like dolphins have this? Dogs?

[aquariusman]

 

How do we not know that other animals (birds) have the mental capacity to question life like us. How do we not know that they think they're "superior" to us or question their existence as birds?

 

Birds aren't self-aware, meaning they don't have the capacity for introspection.

 

 

 

How do we know what birds know?

 

The frontal lobe is thought to be the epicenter for personality and cognition. In most animals, with exception to some mammals, the frontal lobe is almost nonexistent.

 

That is still not proof that birds are self-aware. What if the frontal lobe in birds isn't the epicentre for personality and cognition?

[mmmcannibalism]

 

How do we not know that other animals (birds) have the mental capacity to question life like us. How do we not know that they think they're "superior" to us or question their existence as birds?

 

Birds aren't self-aware, meaning they don't have the capacity for introspection.

 

 

 

How do we know what birds know?

 

The frontal lobe is thought to be the epicenter for personality and cognition. In most animals, with exception to some mammals, the frontal lobe is almost nonexistent.

 

That is still not proof that birds are self-aware. What if the frontal lobe in birds isn't the epicentre for personality and cognition?

 

 

 

There is also the test involving a mirror.

 

 

 

Basically you put a wrong colored sticker on the tested animal and place it in from of a mirror. If birds(for example) will pick at the sticker after seeing in mirror it proves they understand that they are the bird in the mirror.

[Shinjula]

Dunno if this has been brought up as a perspective, but I'm buddhistic in nature, my answer to the question of self, is that I dont have one, its just an illusion. Any thoughts or questions?

 

That ironically enough if god doesn't exist you are entirely correct.

 

How so? The same question applies to shinjula.

 

I'm sure you can perceive a "self" if there's no god. It's not like you stop existing when god does.

 

Um, actually I'm not at all convinced I can perceive a self. I was brought up in a western home and so I did always consider myself to be.. myself, but as I've started thinking about it it all just seems to fall away. It seems to me that people convinced themselves that there is something there and by doing that, create effects which would mirror a reality where there was a self, but I've tried to live without a self as much as I can (given how much ones beliefs are settled during childhood) and I really reckon it IS just an illusion.

 

 

 

Now I'd like to speak about some things which are common in Buddhism, but not really accepted elsewhere, please dont immediately jump down my throat if they dont happen to agree with the way you see reality, but equally do feel free to ask questions.

 

Everything is connected, everything is one. Ok this may sound a bit etheric and meaningless, but let me elaborate. If you get a friend to take two compass points and place them gently on your arm, say 5 cm apart, you will be able to feel them separate and distinct,, now close your eyes and repeat it with the compass points closer together, at some point you will only feel one compass point - and when you open your eyes you will probably be surprised how far apart they are, this is because nerves in your arm are spaced quite far apart, between 1 and 2 cm (Odd experiment I know, but worth doing simply for the surprising result)

 

What I'm showing here is that what you perceive as continuous parts of you, are actually held together by illusion. You perceive that your body's feelings are continuous, despite the brain filling in the gaps. So being able to feel a part of you is not required in order for you to consider it part of you.

 

 

 

It;s even more obvious when you consider that you cant feel (for the most part) your teeth, but they are considered part of you, when your foot falls asleep you dont consider it no longer part of you ,although I would guess many of you find the feeling very odd simply because it does kinda FEEL like its not part of you, yet you know enough to dismiss that feeling, when your foot goes to sleep you know it will wake up and rejoin you, and you certain dont poke at it repeatedly with a sharp knife even though it wont hurt, because you know you will suffer the consequences.

 

 

 

To me the world is like that. I know that there is no inherent difference between my foot and the table, the foot is no more part of me than the table it is, or alternately the table is as much part of me as my foot is. The molecules of the table as constantly in flux, surface molecules ping off into space to mix with the molecules of everything else. The molecules of my foot are even more in flux, the skin replaces itself completely every seven years, and the tissue of my foot is made from the food I eat.

 

 

 

The Physical part of the universe has no inherent boundaries, when you touch an item you feel as though you are touching it, yet this too is an illusion, the atoms are filled with space and what actually occurs is an electrical repulsion from the electrons, there is no connection there at all, or at least the very same sort of connection that exists within your own body.

 

 

 

Moving on to the world of ideas, its the same story, nothing which I consider to be myself is constant, or in any way mine. My ideas and my beliefs are scavenged from other people, and when I do have ones of my own they are simply repetitions and alterations of other ideas which have come before me. Obviously when I first had this thought I did upset me quite a bit. I work as a sculptor and creativity is very important to me, but I realised its actually a great thing, it gives me a sense of continuity with the past. I dont know how many of you have experienced this sort of thing, but I find my thoughts are not my own either. Often then come unbidden about subjects I have no interest, my mind wanders on its own. Odd trivia pops up on its own and even when I think about stuff deliberately the thoughts I have do not seem part of me.

 

 

 

People also talk of qualities inherent to themselves, things which make up their personality, which make them them. And from my own life I believe this to be one more illusion. I have not found it the case that I have any of those. I have changed so much in my life, all qualities I have seen in my life have changed over time, both naturally and in response to circumstances. I am currently a very tense person I react quickly to events as they come. I am creative, and intelligent. I am quick to anger and slow to diffuse. However if I look at myself only a year ago and I was completely different. I was depressed, quiet, interested in reading, distrusting of people. And then the year before that I was vivacious, fabulous and flamboyant. I was relaxed and vibrant. Each year I am different. You might be tempted to say, therefore I am a quixotic person, yet I have had periods of stability in my life too, for five years I was a very quiet studious person, before that was another period of rapid change.

 

 

 

So I claim nothing in my personality as my own, they are merely as surface qualities as what clothes I wear.

 

And I claim nothing in the physical world as my own either.

 

 

 

To me the Universe is a field effect. I am simply part of one gigantic whole. Imagine a wave on the ocean. You see the wave and think it is an object, yet as the wave travels forwards the individual water atoms stay where they are, just moving up and down, the atoms in the water never move with the wave. The wave is just an illusion, as am I...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...well you did ask :)

[mmmcannibalism]

[hide=]

Dunno if this has been brought up as a perspective, but I'm buddhistic in nature, my answer to the question of self, is that I dont have one, its just an illusion. Any thoughts or questions?

 

That ironically enough if god doesn't exist you are entirely correct.

 

How so? The same question applies to shinjula.

 

I'm sure you can perceive a "self" if there's no god. It's not like you stop existing when god does.

 

Um, actually I'm not at all convinced I can perceive a self. I was brought up in a western home and so I did always consider myself to be.. myself, but as I've started thinking about it it all just seems to fall away. It seems to me that people convinced themselves that there is something there and by doing that, create effects which would mirror a reality where there was a self, but I've tried to live without a self as much as I can (given how much ones beliefs are settled during childhood) and I really reckon it IS just an illusion.

 

 

 

Now I'd like to speak about some things which are common in Buddhism, but not really accepted elsewhere, please dont immediately jump down my throat if they dont happen to agree with the way you see reality, but equally do feel free to ask questions.

 

Everything is connected, everything is one. Ok this may sound a bit etheric and meaningless, but let me elaborate. If you get a friend to take two compass points and place them gently on your arm, say 5 cm apart, you will be able to feel them separate and distinct,, now close your eyes and repeat it with the compass points closer together, at some point you will only feel one compass point - and when you open your eyes you will probably be surprised how far apart they are, this is because nerves in your arm are spaced quite far apart, between 1 and 2 cm (Odd experiment I know, but worth doing simply for the surprising result)

 

What I'm showing here is that what you perceive as continuous parts of you, are actually held together by illusion. You perceive that your body's feelings are continuous, despite the brain filling in the gaps. So being able to feel a part of you is not required in order for you to consider it part of you.

 

 

 

It;s even more obvious when you consider that you cant feel (for the most part) your teeth, but they are considered part of you, when your foot falls asleep you dont consider it no longer part of you ,although I would guess many of you find the feeling very odd simply because it does kinda FEEL like its not part of you, yet you know enough to dismiss that feeling, when your foot goes to sleep you know it will wake up and rejoin you, and you certain dont poke at it repeatedly with a sharp knife even though it wont hurt, because you know you will suffer the consequences.

 

 

 

To me the world is like that. I know that there is no inherent difference between my foot and the table, the foot is no more part of me than the table it is, or alternately the table is as much part of me as my foot is. The molecules of the table as constantly in flux, surface molecules ping off into space to mix with the molecules of everything else. The molecules of my foot are even more in flux, the skin replaces itself completely every seven years, and the tissue of my foot is made from the food I eat.

 

 

 

The Physical part of the universe has no inherent boundaries, when you touch an item you feel as though you are touching it, yet this too is an illusion, the atoms are filled with space and what actually occurs is an electrical repulsion from the electrons, there is no connection there at all, or at least the very same sort of connection that exists within your own body.

 

 

 

Moving on to the world of ideas, its the same story, nothing which I consider to be myself is constant, or in any way mine. My ideas and my beliefs are scavenged from other people, and when I do have ones of my own they are simply repetitions and alterations of other ideas which have come before me. Obviously when I first had this thought I did upset me quite a bit. I work as a sculptor and creativity is very important to me, but I realised its actually a great thing, it gives me a sense of continuity with the past. I dont know how many of you have experienced this sort of thing, but I find my thoughts are not my own either. Often then come unbidden about subjects I have no interest, my mind wanders on its own. Odd trivia pops up on its own and even when I think about stuff deliberately the thoughts I have do not seem part of me.

 

 

 

People also talk of qualities inherent to themselves, things which make up their personality, which make them them. And from my own life I believe this to be one more illusion. I have not found it the case that I have any of those. I have changed so much in my life, all qualities I have seen in my life have changed over time, both naturally and in response to circumstances. I am currently a very tense person I react quickly to events as they come. I am creative, and intelligent. I am quick to anger and slow to diffuse. However if I look at myself only a year ago and I was completely different. I was depressed, quiet, interested in reading, distrusting of people. And then the year before that I was vivacious, fabulous and flamboyant. I was relaxed and vibrant. Each year I am different. You might be tempted to say, therefore I am a quixotic person, yet I have had periods of stability in my life too, for five years I was a very quiet studious person, before that was another period of rapid change.

 

 

 

So I claim nothing in my personality as my own, they are merely as surface qualities as what clothes I wear.

 

And I claim nothing in the physical world as my own either.

 

 

 

To me the Universe is a field effect. I am simply part of one gigantic whole. Imagine a wave on the ocean. You see the wave and think it is an object, yet as the wave travels forwards the individual water atoms stay where they are, just moving up and down, the atoms in the water never move with the wave. The wave is just an illusion, as am I...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...well you did ask :)

[/hide]

 

 

 

I'm trying to decide what to call this; fatalism isn't appropriate since this is clearly different then saying everything happens in a predetermined order.

 

 

 

Of course, my only critique of that is that the self is a mechanism of the brain used to self distinguish and organize data. If we couldn't tell the difference between I and you then the obituary page would be rather terrifying.

 

 

 

It figures I would read Siddhartha weeks before having a discussion about the existence of a self; I swear god has a sense of humor.