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Tip.It Times - 11th September 2011


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#41
jaklumen
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I don't know why, but when people write articles or threads about how they're quitting, I honestly couldn't care less. It's like they just want the attention-if they only wanted to make it clear and why all they'd have to do is put something in their sig saying 'I've left Runescape-not that fun anymore'


^this.

I think the Times can do much, much better. How? Okay, I'll tell you.

I gave you an example before, and I'm going to do it again. The Nightmare of Working for Customer Service, by Hugh_Mannity. Read it. No, seriously. Before anyone starts thinking "But Jagex customer support still sucks five years later," or decides to reply as such, allow me to explain the context to which I'm referring. Yes, customer support needs a lot of work, but I'm referring to a broader concept of corporate growing pains.

What?

Okay, time for a quote. Yep, one of the very same ones I used before.

The ones that always get me are those who believe that because they pay $5/month (or whatever the fee for service is in the product I'm supporting) they're entitled to $5,000 worth of service any and every time they call. It isn't so. Entitlement scum are the world's worst.


Spot on. Yes, I know membership fees have gone up a little, but it is NOTHING compared to the many other games out there that give Jagex competition. World of Warcraft is what, 15US$? (Pardon me if I've got that wrong, as well-- I'm too lazy to look it up.) My point is that while there are a lot more MMOs now than 2006, they all still charge higher subscription rates-- and even the ones that are toying with the idea of free play are a lot more restricted. Here's the rub, though: the Runescape community has got a terrible reputation of being very, very demanding, and really quick with the complaints.

Another quote:

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Jagex doesn't need a corporate overhaul—get in a few veteran management types to look at their business systems and rebuild them in a more efficient and cost-effective manner.


THAT"S HAPPENING right now. What? No, really, go ask an MBA or other business student/grad sometime. If ForsakenMage is still around, she might tell you. Um... let's put it this way... you get what you pay for. Yeah, back to the previous quote. Runescape members pay about 5US$ each month and expect customer service that would cost many times that much? I think some of you haven't dealt with enough outsourced CS or know why businesses are doing it. I worked with the Crew for a short time-- I remember the junk that came flowing in on the feedback form. No, I don't mean the spam stuff, I mean the "Dear Jagex, listen to me because I am a parent and I'm mad because my kid got hacked." I think many don't have a real clue how customer support typically works, and based on replies I got the last time I brought this up... I still say that.

I'm 37 years old. Plenty of people my age still game. Sadly, I remember some of them blowing hard cash on Facebook games that had pitiful scripts. Yep, Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc., all comes to mind. And I'm not going to say they couldn't be melodramatic about it. But over here... well the people I *know* are in my age group here are pretty silent on this subject. Pay attention, kids. That means they don't give two farts to the wind about you quitting. And as it's been pointed out very clearly-- people quit all the time. People have threatened to quit BEFORE, too. BOY DONE CRIED WOLF, SON. So Racheya makes a big high-profile post on it when it's been said dozens of times... yeah, okay, I will admit it's grabbed people's attention, but I'm inclined to say, "Yeah, yeah, whatever, the wolf is not there."

I'm gobsmacked, y'know? People whined and cried so hard even when the Gowers were still quite involved. What, you don't believe my lawsuit story? Fine. Go ask someone else who remembered that. But I hope you get my drift that an adult like me (Andrew is 34, supposedly) gets MIGHTY TIRED of listening to customers that rant and rave about things they probably know very, very little about. And if anyone remembers WHAT he said after he threatened Tip.It with a lawsuit... they should remember he's no suit and never will be. Again, he forms Fen Research... so he can get back to coding/programming. What is so hard to understand about that? Not to mention wow... ingratitude, really.

$5/month is a drop compared to my regular expenses-- more as I've got a house of my own, finally. And DON"T GET ME WRONG-- I was plenty idealistic up through my twenties. But after a while, it's just not a high priority.

Blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH. I'm bored with my own writing here. Okay, bottom line:

Tip.It, you've got people here that can write stuff that is more... objective. I understand that it can't be too analytical or the younger teens go to sleep. Believe it or not, I do remember that. But melodramatics is annoying after so many years, although I freely admit I've met too many gamers of every single stripe (games, games, any games, not just pixelated) that were heavy on the drama llama.

Oh, yeah. I was in the Super Mod chair before, too. Yada yada Tip.It is over the drama, right? Heh, I guess not. Sorry, Racheya, I had no idea who you were when Silverion gave me a remote control, so to speak. That means... yeah, facepalm, or something to that effect. Thanks for the memories and all that.

Once again, most of my peers... I think most of them don't even care about this stuff, so maybe the fact I'm saying anything at all might have some meaning. Well, it means more that I care. But, uh, whatever, I guess.

#42
jaklumen
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p.s. "Earn Your Keep"... sloppy writing.

Yes, that is way harsh. Sorry. It's not proofreading stuff-- spelling, grammar, etc. is fine, very good, even. I mean that the style wanders and I have trouble getting the gist or main idea.

Okay, you saw me blather up there, so am I making any sense, then? The writing could be much more tight and focused. Keep in mind I have no idea what the deadlines and circumstances were.

#43
Assume Nothing
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I'll share a little insight (mods remove this post if it's too confidential, but I don't think it is) - schedules are made a week prior to the month, and authors are given one article to be due per month. Editors get two, although there's two editors available per week.

A problem with writing for the Times would be the coupled time sensitive issues with school related work - authors don't have much free time to come up with ideas, or time to develop on the idea. It's not an easy job for sure.

If you feel you could do better for the times, you should consider applying, or writing a guest article. We're constantly looking for new talent who could offer a new perspective.

#44
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There's quite a difference between "I don't have time" and "I don't want to", a bit like finding the new producers of your favourite TV show make such a dogs breakfast of the next series that you just don't want to make time for it. After all, unlike some games where the world continues and attacks you even while offline, Runescape can be as occasional as you like, though of course, no point paying for membership if you only drop in once in a while.

The other question that can be asked, is there an end, an endgame? - For completionists, the answer is, at "everything done" - after all, when you look at games you buy, rather than subscribe to, actually, how long do THEY really last - ok, sometimes you'd be fading from one to the next in the series, but can anything really have indefinite appeal?

#45
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It's ironic you mention change and then assume a person who previously supported Jagex is required to support them indefinitely. That's like being a fan of an athlete and then being called a hypocrite for no longer supporting him after he's caught taking steroids. Also, you're making a pretty irrational assumption when you claim people who quit now have somehow automatically supported everything Jagex has done prior to these past few months.

RuneScape is fun to play with a group of real life friends? Too bad all of my IRL friends were smart enough to quit years ago (as is the case with many of us).

Who cares about the bots? Try the vast majority of players (hence the 9001 new bot rants every week). They make the game unbearable to play as training spots are filled beyond the traditional capacity and they skew prices of items to be a nuisance for real players.

And this one single article somehow sets a non-existent "ugly tone" for people who still play? That's like saying your quality of life diminished because one person said "life sucks" to you once.

You might have some bearing...if the person in question did not ALWAYS take Jagex's side...not matter what. Big difference then changing from being a bears fan to a Packers fan. Logic. TIF lacks it.

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#46
SwreeTak
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There's quite a difference between "I don't have time" and "I don't want to", a bit like finding the new producers of your favourite TV show make such a dogs breakfast of the next series that you just don't want to make time for it. After all, unlike some games where the world continues and attacks you even while offline, Runescape can be as occasional as you like, though of course, no point paying for membership if you only drop in once in a while.

The other question that can be asked, is there an end, an endgame? - For completionists, the answer is, at "everything done" - after all, when you look at games you buy, rather than subscribe to, actually, how long do THEY really last - ok, sometimes you'd be fading from one to the next in the series, but can anything really have indefinite appeal?


I just wanted to comment on the first paragraph here: Most people who quit with the reason "I don't have time" actually means "I don't want to play anymore".

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#47
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I think the Times can do much, much better. How? Okay, I'll tell you.

I gave you an example before, and I'm going to do it again. The Nightmare of Working for Customer Service, by Hugh_Mannity. Read it. No, seriously. Before anyone starts thinking "But Jagex customer support still sucks five years later," or decides to reply as such, allow me to explain the context to which I'm referring. Yes, customer support needs a lot of work, but I'm referring to a broader concept of corporate growing pains.


Although I understand the point you are making in your post (be it rather crudely worded), I do not agree that this particular article is above the standard I have come to know when reading the Times. It contains flawed argumentation and was rather one-sided.

I work in customer support myself and know the frustrations that come along with it. I teach, and I tutor failing students, so there too I understand the frustrations. If Jagex employees can't deal with their job they should look for another, because in all fairness they do choose to do that for a living.

Anyway, I agree in that it is unfair to blame Jagex customer support employees for everything and that a large number of players (and perhaps parents even) may be crude and unreasonable to them. However, I agree with Racheya that certain things did change for the worse. I feel her reasoning is legitimate and it does express views shared by others. Does it deserve a feature on the Times? Matter of opinion.

In my humble opinion, you appear to be overreacting somewhat.
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#48
GregorDGrim
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I'm 37 years old. Plenty of people my age still game. Sadly, I remember some of them blowing hard cash on Facebook games that had pitiful scripts. Yep, Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc., all comes to mind. And I'm not going to say they couldn't be melodramatic about it. But over here... well the people I *know* are in my age group here are pretty silent on this subject. Pay attention, kids. That means they don't give two farts to the wind about you quitting. And as it's been pointed out very clearly-- people quit all the time.

As someone in your age group, I wanted to comment that this paragraph rings very true with me.

#49
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It's ironic you mention change and then assume a person who previously supported Jagex is required to support them indefinitely. That's like being a fan of an athlete and then being called a hypocrite for no longer supporting him after he's caught taking steroids. Also, you're making a pretty irrational assumption when you claim people who quit now have somehow automatically supported everything Jagex has done prior to these past few months.

RuneScape is fun to play with a group of real life friends? Too bad all of my IRL friends were smart enough to quit years ago (as is the case with many of us).

Who cares about the bots? Try the vast majority of players (hence the 9001 new bot rants every week). They make the game unbearable to play as training spots are filled beyond the traditional capacity and they skew prices of items to be a nuisance for real players.

And this one single article somehow sets a non-existent "ugly tone" for people who still play? That's like saying your quality of life diminished because one person said "life sucks" to you once.

You might have some bearing...if the person in question did not ALWAYS take Jagex's side...not matter what. Big difference then changing from being a bears fan to a Packers fan. Logic. TIF lacks it.

I liked the part where you said Racheya always took Jagex's side "not matter what."

You summed it up well, though :rolleyes: .

Logic. TIF lacks it.


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#50
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p.s. "Earn Your Keep"... sloppy writing.

Yes, that is way harsh. Sorry. It's not proofreading stuff-- spelling, grammar, etc. is fine, very good, even. I mean that the style wanders and I have trouble getting the gist or main idea.

Okay, you saw me blather up there, so am I making any sense, then? The writing could be much more tight and focused. Keep in mind I have no idea what the deadlines and circumstances were.

More complicated than they should have been. My fault :razz:
It was better than the even more directionless dead horse article I originally had in mind.

#51
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I'm 37 years old. Plenty of people my age still game. Sadly, I remember some of them blowing hard cash on Facebook games that had pitiful scripts. Yep, Mafia Wars, Farmville, etc., all comes to mind. And I'm not going to say they couldn't be melodramatic about it. But over here... well the people I *know* are in my age group here are pretty silent on this subject. Pay attention, kids. That means they don't give two farts to the wind about you quitting. And as it's been pointed out very clearly-- people quit all the time.

As someone in your age group, I wanted to comment that this paragraph rings very true with me.


I wanted to say what Jaklumen (and by incorporation Hugh_Mannity) said, but:

1. I sort of said it last week

The red carpet treatment the Gower brothers gave to players set unrealistic expectations for how Jagex would behave once creating and maintaining Runescape became a livelihood instead of a hobby. How else could people have come to believe that their $5.95/month payment or their exposure to adverts on the side gives them the right to tell Andrew how to live his life, or trumps the hundreds of thousands?/millions? of dollars investors have put into the company?


2. What Skeptic said

A problem with writing for the Times would be the coupled time sensitive issues with school related work - authors don't have much free time to come up with ideas, or time to develop on the idea. It's not an easy job for sure.

If you feel you could do better for the times, you should consider applying, or writing a guest article. We're constantly looking for new talent who could offer a new perspective.


3. Plato railed about the self-centeredness of youth 2000 years ago, and elders have been doing one riff or another on that theme ever since. Someday the “ungrateful youth” of today will themselves complain about those younger than them. How’s that for irony?

(And if that’s not enough irony, we can add some contemporaneous recursion. We have people on this thread complaining -- instead of quietly giving up reading the Tip It Times -- about people who complain instead of quietly giving up Runescape.)

So if ranting and raving about youth doesn’t work, what does? Well, it’s not grandiose, but working with kids one at a time seems to. Regardless of whether Jagex pleases this or that individual with its choices in Runescape, it performs an invaluable service by keeping latchkey kids, who have very few choices, out of trouble, entertained, and even educated a bit. Perhaps I will write an article about the kids I’ve met on Runescape who have to find something to do on a limited budget while Mom and Dad work (it’s amazing how many of their parents are divorced), how a little adult attention in-game improved their lives, and how they’ve paid me back many times over because often they know more about Runescaping (or other things) than I do. If you can handle more irony, the reason I’d have trouble writing said article is the same reason Racheya needs to cut back on her Runescaping – I have responsibilities in real life.

So to mirror Mirror - best wishes, Racheya, and thanks for your service to the Tip It community.
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#52
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Im sort of feeling on Racheya's side. I am slowing starting to hate this game for her same exact reasons. The fact that jagex won't do anything about the bots is eben pissing me off, and ive been a player since 2004. I used to be able to tolerate them, now there is at least 5 bots for every real player standing in the ge. its really upsetting. Also, it really seems that jagex only cares about money.. i made a new str pure, and when i got to 10 str, there was something that popped up saying "upgrade to a members account and get this cool dwarfen battle axe" or something. They are even advertising members stuff in f2p just north of falador. Jagex is most likely completely aware of the amount of bots, but the gigantic income Jagex has seen has stirred them away from that because they will be losing money. Even peoples attitudes have changed.. i have actually deleted everyone from my friends list because they either gave away their account or quit.. or just changed in general. If this keeps up, within the next few months even I see myself leaving.. even if its a brief period. I just recently came back from a 7 month dry spree of Runescape, and now it seems I want to be away again because of all this nonsense.


#53
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Probably a big debate already going on about the articles in this thread but I just wanted to inject my not so humble opinion:

Good to see your will power in taking a stand Racheya, hope ya can find something that makes ya happy whatever it is (even if it is coming back to RS :))

I liked reading the other article but do not have any real opinion on it.

Overall the articles were shorter than some in the past and I must say that this is an improvement. In fact, the Tip.It Times could do with maybe four articles at about these lengths rather than just two if people will write them.

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#54
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idk if it's me maturing or what, but I have finally come to see RS as the terrible addiction that everyone else told me for so long. It used to be just a game - until it consumes you. I want to rally up the peeps who have the courage to say the Q word. Even if it's just for now.
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#55
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You might have some bearing...if the person in question did not ALWAYS take Jagex's side...not matter what. Big difference then changing from being a bears fan to a Packers fan. Logic. TIF lacks it.


Finally someone who remembers how overbearing and obnoxious the "person in question" used to be in championing jagex.

I have no problems with new players joining the community what I do have problems with are new players who blather on and on about how great every single update is even when they can't even access most of the content in the game. In my eyes this was the "person in question".

It does bother me now that they are hyper-critical of Jagex and seem to act like they are "the very first person ever to notice that Runescape has flaws."

I also think it's extremely ungrateful to leave on a negative tone.

The fact is for some moments in time we did play Runescape and we did enjoy it.
I do think that new players especially those who are younger still can experience some of that.


#56
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And this is not to single out the person who wrote this article.
It was not only her there were a few posters who rabidly defended every single decision Jagex made on these fan forums.


It just floors me to see the person who wrote this article bash Jagex though.

It's like someone who has a massive crush on a guy, and actually ends up dating them for the last two years of high school and they fall in love. But when the relationship ends in the natural course of things and they break up to go to college in different states she decides to hate the guy and bad-mouth him and to claim "oh I never even really liked him, what a jerk."

For me her rabid support of Jagex and her rabid criticisms of Jagex come from the same place, it's not someone who thinks things through and sees both sides of the story. You don't have to absolutely love something or absolutely hate something life just is not like that. Her opinions are just too immature.

#57
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A problem with writing for the Times would be the coupled time sensitive issues with school related work - authors don't have much free time to come up with ideas, or time to develop on the idea. It's not an easy job for sure.


Understood, although I might not have made that clear enough. I do understand constraints, especially when it is volunteer and on free time-- unpaid work usually isn't valued as much.

What my primary concern is, though, above all, is that there has been a very subjective tone in Times articles in recent years. If that truly is what the community here wants, however, I can accept that. I'm from the Pacific Northwest-- before the Seattle Post-Intelligencer folded, it was known as a very emotionally written newspaper. I know some people very much liked that. It's not so much my cup of tea, however.

The reason why I have not submitted an article is that my ideas and suggestions have been shot down by the community before. Call it a copout if you wish, but I'm not interested in sitting under the hot interrogation lights, so to speak. I've also been very badly burnt here in other matters which I have discussed before and do not wish to discuss again. Responding to the Times is a big step for me; otherwise, I'd stay away. Not looking for a pity party; I just want you to understand that my participation here is as much as I want to do right now. (My submissions to the website and Staff work still stand.)

Although I understand the point you are making in your post (be it rather crudely worded), I do not agree that this particular article is above the standard I have come to know when reading the Times. It contains flawed argumentation and was rather one-sided.


Ohh... that is nothing. You should read the guy's blog. But to be on topic, my "crude wording" is struggling to keep the attention of younger readers here while trying to stay somewhat concise. I've never quite mastered that and usually affect a blunt edge in my choice of words.

I work in customer support myself and know the frustrations that come along with it. I teach, and I tutor failing students, so there too I understand the frustrations. If Jagex employees can't deal with their job they should look for another, because in all fairness they do choose to do that for a living.


My undergraduate work was in teaching-- elementary school and music. I am not employed as a teacher-- but that's another long story. I've also done customer support, too. I think a friend of mine, however, put it better than I could: "It takes a certain kind of mindset." He works for Amazon as tech support for the Kindle. I can well imagine that what he describes at his work is very much like what Jagex deals with: customers that have made a mistake, broken something-- but are too frustrated and upset to admit such. He says four-letter words and dirty epithets are pretty common. I freely admit I know I can't do that kind of work. I'm too full of fire and sensitivity.

In my humble opinion, you appear to be overreacting somewhat.


You've missed my point-- so I'll try again. I wished to speak more to the changes Jagex is experiencing as a corporation. I wish I had a better example to quote-- but an article on customer service was the closest I could get. Jagex is not Andrew Gower's little project anymore-- it's morphing into a corporation. What I was trying to say is that many of the things players are complaining bitterly about is par for the course. The business and especially business administration students I have spoken to seem to understand this.

For the record, the Jmod I consulted was Ash. I think he has a genuine understanding having been a regular player... most of the developers aren't, if any of them are. None of them play the game the way a regular player does, and if I have to name names to back things up... fine, I will. I know a few people I've talked to about it think Ash is shilling a bit, but... no, what he said matched what I had figured beforehand.


More complicated than they should have been. My fault :razz:
It was better than the even more directionless dead horse article I originally had in mind.


Don't get me wrong-- I don't mean to say it was a subject that is easy to write about. My first thought, though, about the newest Prayer Restore potion was that it was to address Mortyania, especially as Mortyanian monsters are among those that drop the fellstalk and morchella mushroom seeds. Probably more so in regards to Temple Trekking and Barrows. There were no prayer altars previously in Mortyania (EDIT: sorry, I keep forgetting about the Darkmeyer altar)-- Paterdomus is technically right on the edge, on the Varrock side. You might remember that a previous update allowed you to burn hollow bark in torches to restore prayer, but those torches were limited to a very small area. So a potion that gradually restored prayer apparently was the next solution. (I would assume Akrisae's set can be considered another subsequent solution, as the set effect leeches prayer.)

I *do* like that you pointed out that these updates were released before Bonus XP weekend. I stockpiled herbs and seconds for the "Three Cheers" and "A Second Helping" BXPs.




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