Another Nail in the Coffin

[Resistance]

I'm not sure where you're getting that conclusion from.

 

Detect Thoughts

Discern Lies

Divination

Detect Magic

Detect alignment

Speak with dead

 

 

They're all counter-intuitive against the player actually thinking.

 

[Retech]

Oh no, my murder mystery plot is so flimsy that it can't hold up to basic skill checks and 1st level spells! By the time you get divination, the entire setting of the world has changed. The assumptions of a low-magic world can't be directly applied.

 

But I was more referring to the your claim that the premise of DnD was being murderhobos.

[The_Mather1]

I think you've forgotten that the following skills exist:

Appraise, Diplomacy, Knowledge, Craft, Bluff, Handle Animal, Linguistics, Perform, Profession and Sense Motive.

[Resistance]

If I were to follow those rules to the letter you could just make the king abdicate and deal with all enemies by telling them not to do things :P

 

It's not about skills existing, it's about the fact that there's no point worrying about half of them when in a system based around combat you're pushed into attacking them.

 

Alternatively, you can just geas them and there's no need to worry about RP or antagonists.

[The_Mather1]

You're the one forcing the combat, not us or the system. Just look at the first session of the current setting, where we made a guy submit through negotiation, then you went ahead and made him attack regardless.

[Resistance]

You made a yeoman sign away his lands under duress. The session after was a planned raid on the keep as a result.

 

The point is that combat should be a big part of the game but d&d lends to it being the only part of the game. Personally, I would like charisma to be as detailed as combat but as it stands it's just a flat +2 to rolls.

The system isn't geared for long-running campaigns, partially because people's power is directly correlated with their level - so the venerable king needs to be a level 15 brawler or battle Mage, and with E6 it just means that they can be geased or hold person'd 60% of the time - diplomacy goes out the window when you are mind-controlling demigods. The amount of utility at level 6 far outweighs that of any melee combatant.

[The_Mather1]

No, I made him sign away his land and threw him out of the keep, he returned ten minutes later and started hitting the keep with a stick.

[Resistance]

[spoiler=Archi's Character]

Scion

Race: Dwarf

 

Agility d10

Smarts d6

Spirit d8 (1)

Strength d6

Vigor d6

 

Climbing d6

Running d10

Lockpicking d10

Fighting d12

Notice d6

Stealth d12

 

Charisma: -

Pace: 7

Parry: 9

Toughness: 5

 

Hindarence:

Cautious

Curious

Loyal

 

Edges:

Arcane Resistance

Fleet Footed (5)

Assassin (2)

Thief (3)

Acrobat (4)

 

Gear:

-Great Axe

-AP 1, Parry -1, 2 Handed

-Damage: d6+d10

 

 

 

 

Creating a character is very simple. Talk to me about concepts and I can help you. Archi is playing a rogue seemingly.

 

EDIT: If it's just Alg, Archi and possibly Nex I probably won't run.

[Resistance]

https://app.roll20.net/join/120684/oHs4Rg

 

Possible session at 8:00 PM GMT depending on turnout.

 

We can use presets, and then dedicate an hour to creating the higher level characters.

[Resistance]

We shall continue in two weeks. This means the 19th of may.

 

 

 

I think the game would really benefit if players inserted their own things into the world. The general scope of this would be a house or a quirk in the world.

Try to stick with the current map, since editing will be painful and don't edit too much.

 

Also:

https://dl.dropboxus...y Companion.pdf

 

This is for magic items and such.

 

Edit; cards are a little cumbersome, so just roll 1d10!, exploding 12 = joker

 

 

EDIT:

 

First, you roll initiative (1d10, ace above 12 = joker, you can go wherever you want)

 

You roll fighting/shooting against your opponents parry.

If this raises, you add an additional 1d6

Then you roll damage (Strength+weapon damage) or just fixed with ranged weapons.

The damage is compared to toughness. If it goes under, nothing happens. If it is the same with no raise (0-3 deviation) it causes the opponent to be shaken. Every raise over, however, adds an extra wound.

Each wound a player suffers gives -1 on ALL checks & pace.

 

Example:

 

A low level mook has parry 2, and TN 5 (due to his leather armour), rolling 1d10 fighting you roll a 7. This is a raise, so you get an extra 1d6 to damage.

You attack with a flail, (3) + raise damage (2) + Str damage (4) dealing a total of 9 damage. He takes one wound. The mook is killed/injured/removed from play.

 

Example 2:

A high level mook wielding a flail attacks the players. He has d8 str, parry 2, d10 fight and TN 6. He rolls first on initiative and attacks a player. He rolls 6 on fighting which just would beat a low-level player wearing full armour on the parry.

He attacks, and deals 4+6, the flail aces so we roll again (4) so the total is 14 damage. Because of this the player takes two wounds, he can take 3 wounds before he dies.

The PC decides to continue fighting, and so hits with his great axe (d10 strength, d12 fighting), he attacks: 8 which hits. Then he calculates damage, which is 6+7, 13 which means two wounds and therefore death for the high level kook.

 

 

(I didn't properly roll for these, so these aren't representative of the wild die)

 

 

-

 

Now, unless you're fighting something like a giant octopus (where I would probably stat out each tentacle individually) you are all going to be ridiculously good at dispatching mooks.

 

 

BBEG count as Wild Cards I believe.

 

-

 

System Analysis

 

2e -

Probably impractical due to the multitude of rulebooks.

Basically pathfinder, but with less opportunity for being broken.

Lots of fun differences, like people not being able to roll

Combat is just text-based.

There is still the issue of optimisation.

The power of the players in pathfinder is 5/10, this would be 2/10.

Players will die, this may be a good thing or not.

 

Savage Worlds -

Has two primary sourcebooks, the fantasy and the core one.

There are more, but this may be impractical.

Combat would be on roll20

No issue of optimisation.

Mortality rate is probably the same as pathfinder.

The power of the players in pathfinder is 5/10, this would be 6-7/10 but with the risk of powerful aces dealing hefty damage.

 

Pathfinder -

Would be as is, but a constant dungeon crawl.

Social encounters wouldn't really exist.

Something like this: http://i.imgur.com/if3VdJh.png

If you die, you start right back at the beginning.

 

Dungeoneering -

Similar to Savage Worlds, except no system.

I would use something like Doodle God as a base for magic.

 

Edit: Archi suggested word casting, it does seem like it would fix a lot of the problems.

 

http://www.d20pfsrd..../words-of-power

 

 

Other potential systems include WHFRP (not likely, due to its medium. As long as we start second career it would be fun, first career is a little heavy.

 

 

If people want to continue with it as is, this may work relatively well. Personally, I think it's just an opportunity for abuse - no matter what I say, people will try to abuse the system to increase their power which will just result in less campaign time and more arguing but do discuss.

[Alg]

Suggestion: World's biggest dungeon, with plot.

 

Lord Yugdab the Foul has stolen the Macguffin Crystal and hidden it deep within the fortress he built in The Shadowdark. King Incompétentius has hired us, the five bravest knights from across the realm, to get it back before he uses it to usurp Hell. On the way, they meet other adventurers and become involved in the plots and intrigue of The Shadowdark's eternally warring tribes and factions, who promise support and treasure to every wandering adventurer that passes by in exchange for destroying their rivals.

 

Naturally, the social/roleplaying end of things would come as a part of the dungeon crawling.

[Resistance]

]I would include a plot to a point, I was considering the underdark (similar name :P) meaning drow, beholders, illithids, duegrar and other dark creatures. The quest would be a hunt for a macguffin by Lord Ansehelm (so it would be in the same universe), players would start at level 1. I would not ban optimisation, I would to a degree encourage it.[/size][/font]

Players would start at level 1, but levelling would be very fast (double the standard levelling guidelines, so once per session) but when you die you start at the beginning of the dungeon at level 1 (although you will have cleared out everything. You would then reclaim your old items and continue the adventure.

 

Monsters would be adjusted to the median party member.

 

Also Dark Heresy is an option, but Psykers are rather overpowered.

 

[The_Mather1]

Suggesting using a system where information is readily available in a clean, easily accessible and systematic format with handles for cross-referencing.

[Resistance]

Suggesting using a system where information is readily available in a clean, easily accessible and systematic format with handles for cross-referencing.

 

All the core rules for Savage Worlds can be found in here:

http://www.peginc.co...SWcore/TD06.pdf

 

Other related:

 

https://dl.dropboxus...y Companion.pdf (this is the same, but includes GM guidelines, NPCs and presets)

https://dl.dropboxus...ition, 2011.pdf (This includes extra items)

 

 

Your handle is Ctrl+F :P

 

Although really it shouldn't be an issue since with D&D most people are forced to stat out their characters before creating the concept meaning that people often play rather similar weapons. If you want to be a knight with a halberd and dagger then decide that first and then look at the system. If you want to be somebody who conjures vermin and uses it to infest people, create the character then look at the system. There isn't much of a concept of optimisation, people choose to be weaker in one aspect and stronger than another instead of D&D where somebody can easily be stronger in all aspects.

The system is more freeform, so treat as dungeoneering when creating characters and then stat out after.

 

-

 

2e would not have anything like that. But it's still a possibility.

[Retech]

+1 to Alg's thing

 

Only thing I would suggest is point buy, so you can choose what concept you want. And I would suggest a concept first, because if it's underpowered, we can just optimize it up the wazoo and it should balance out in the end (trip bard anyone?). Optimization being the means to an end.

[Resistance]

Roll 1d6 for class

 

1. Commoner

2. Adept

3. Aristocrat

4. Expert

5. Warrior

6. You die of cholera and are out for one session. Re-roll.

 

Roll 1d20, if you get above 10 your family has saved 5gp under the hay. Otherwise, you start with nothing but rags.

 

Roll 1d3 for age. You do not get the aging bonuses, only the penalties since you have not devoted your life to study and adventure.

 

Roll 2d6 for each stat. Apply them in order.

Example:

STR: 9 DEX: 5 CON: 8 WIS: 5 INT: 10 CHA: 4

 

Peasants did not get education. -1 in all mental ability scores.

 

Roll 1d6 to see how many diseases you start with. These are terminal and can never be cured. If you start with six you die in the first session of dysentery.

Roll 1d6 to see how many flaws you start with, then 1d12 for each (feeble, frail, inattentive, meagre fortitude, murky eyed, noncombatant, pathetic, shaky, slow, unreactive, vulnerable, weak will)

http://tsuyoshikents...oners DR330.pdf (chicken-infested banned. Nice try. Instead you are constantly followed by a swarm of 1d10 chickens who bull rush you when you are weakened)

 

You must make a DC 10 will save every week to avoid committing suicide due to the depressing life of a peasant.

 

Roll 1d2 to see whether you are male or female. If you are female, you take a -4 strength penalty. If you are a female you have 1d6 children who you must look after or be executed.

Roll 1d2 or above, you get pueperal fever and die.

 

Roll 1d6 for languages

1. You cannot speak any languages. Because of your lack of knowledge about languages, bluff checks to imitate languages are made at a -10 penalty.

2. You can speak bad orc (-6 on charisma checks with orcs)

3. You can speak colloquial common (-6 on all charisma checks and can only speak to peasants in your village)

4. You can speak common with an accent (-2 on all charisma checks)

5. You can speak common

6. You can read and speak common

 

 

Roll 1d10 to see what name you have:

Male:

1 Merek

2 Carac

3 Ulric

4 Tybalt

5 Borin

6 Sadon

7 Terrowin

8 Rowan

9 Forthwind

10 Althalos

 

Female:

1 Millicent

2 Alys

3 Ayleth

4 Thea

5 Alianor

6 Cedany

7 Ellyn

8 Gloriana

9 Arabella

10 Helewys

 

Make a DC 15 intelligence check to pronounce the name properly. If you fail, you take -2 charisma with all nobles who know how to pronounce your name.

 

I expect at least one A4 side of paper on backstory. This must be size 11, no margins.

[Resistance]

This is another potential system (http://www.gregstolze.com/reign/) it is perfect for this sort of game. I have not looked at it though so I'm not sure whether it's good or not.

 

EDIT:

 

The system itself is more confusing than D&D and doesn't really provide many benefits over SW. The rules for organisations are very good though, but it's certainly not something to bother with.

 

SW: D4-12+? (highest is better)

D&D: D20+? (highest is better)

REIGN: STAT+POOL*D10 (match up results, work out wideness/height of dice roll. Kill self in process)

[The_Mather1]

Could you change the poll to a multiple choice or add a secondary vote?

[Resistance]

Voting for pathfinder is in essence the same as voting for the campaign to be over since I am no longer willing to put the sustained effort into making sure people aren't powerplaying, especially with the attitude of some players that the objective is to sneak as much cheese past the GM as possible without him noticing.

 

Examples: All of Retech's characters being unhittable save or die specialists, Mather's firebomber (which turned out not to work), Retech's money, Archi's custom wondrous item at 12% of actual price, Archi's ToB character, and many more.

 

Two of those are just plain cheating.

 

Furthermore, the system ends up with people specialising in something really niche (save or die spell or manoeuvre) and get it so that they can hit 100% of the time and deal a ridiculous amount of damage - in the end, to actually challenge PCs you have to create something that has an artificial immunity to their abilities, which feels tacked-on (why would a humanoid be constantly immune to mind-affecting spells, or have +20 untyped bonus to CMD?) which lowers their effectiveness and isn't fun at all. Although Mather and Retech have basically said that 'one-hitting goblins for two hours' is the sort of gameplay they want, which is to say that they want 0% chance of failure.

 

Closing vote at 8

[Retech]

I thought the point of dungeon crawl was that if we smashed through easy parts of the dungeon, we'd level, but there'd be progressively more difficult monsters, so you don't actually need to artificially boost weaker monsters. It would become obvious when we reached some sort of equilibrium level (say we were level 10 and fighting CR 16s regularly, but not utterly steamrolling).

[Resistance]

Basically, but I would not want to run that for unrelated reasons.

 

Tabletop games are played instead of videogames because:

 

1.) You can use inventive solutions to problems.

2.) Because there is actual dialogue (not dialogue trees) so you can roleplay effectively.

2a.) The world has a level of detail that cannot be found in videogames.

3.) People are too poor to afford a computer.

 

 

Some good dungeon crawl games include: Dungeons of Dredmor, WoW, Minecraft Custom Maps/Hack&Slash mod, Stone Soup, Grimrock. In terms of dungeon crawling, these games are superior to anything I can do - therefore I have no real will to run a dungeon crawl and so would not.

 

Honestly, without a story (or an attempt at one) there would be no point of ensuring people didn't optimise. Being super-duper overpowered demigods is counter-intuitive to any story and any sort of inventive solutions - nor do I want to run a story where all the enemies are demons/devils or something else that is significantly more powerful than the PCs - I want to run elves, humans, orcs and uzram (not dwarves, they are terrible) - having players who are never challenged by anything does not lead to an effective story. This is why I am suggesting a switch to a more balanced system - either by flat-out nerfing everybody (2e), giving players more cinematic powers such as extra wounds and better rolls (savage worlds) or controlling everything by fudging everything (dungeoneering).

[Retech]

I don't really see how dungeon crawling and the reasons above (aside from the computer thing) are mutually exclusive.

 

And I think we already went over the story thing.

[Resistance]

I explained in an edit.

 

The real issue is me, and my deciding that I cannot cope with the flaws of the pathfinder system. Regardless of whether you feel my issues are just projections of my own terrible DMing onto D&D or whether D&D is bad - I have said I cannot cope with it.

 

This was originally rotating GM, and I have done about fifteen weeks since we stopped rotating (more like twelve, due to ceasing). Somebody else is free to take the post (please do not use the setting) if people want to continue using pathfinder - although I think it's probably doomed to face the same issues whatever happens.

 

Windward was great, but it still had (worse) imbalance: Grim was a cleric (most powerful class in PF) with two CR 5 summons at level 7 to compliment his own cleric powers and Ross was powerplaying with a master summoner. Archi was a ninja, Earth was a weak rogue, I was a wizard built for team play,

[Retech]

Ah, fair enough. Pathfinder is a pretty high powered setting

[Resistance]

[remove this post, it made no sense]