Dual wield magic level 70 vs. Twohand magic level 80

[Cheefoo]

I've been told that in some situations magic DW lv70 is better than 2h lv80 (ahrim's book+wand vs. chaotic staff). What situations is it, and why? I'm essentially wondering what the pros and cons of concentrated blast are. I know sonic wave isn't very good (5s recharge, 120% damage and a seemingly useless 10% accuracy boost for next hit) and concentrated blast is rather good (5s recharge, 3 hits at 100% damage each with increased crit chance, but the attack rate is kinda slow), but does it make up for the 10 level difference?

[chenw]

Concentrated blast's main advantage is only realised if you use it exactly like Sonic wave, because in that time concentrated blast hits twice, making it essentially a 200% spell damage instant ability, which makes it vastly superior to sonic wave's 120% damage.

 

Edit:

 

the 10 levels of difference is actually closer to 3 levels of difference, if you talk about it from purely damage point of view (it's more complicated if you take accuracy into account).

 

The basic gist of magic damage is that if you equip a t90 damage spell, only the 'off-hand' part of your staff or DW damage is actually scaled to the level of the weapon, the other 'main-hand' part is not. Therefore the real difference in damage between Ahrims and Chaotic staff is only truely 33% of 10 levels, which is about 3 levels worth of damage. Given that 66% of the damage is based on t90 damage, that 3-4 levels difference is comparatively drowned out (It's effectively the difference between t87 for chaotic staff vs t83 for Ahrim's Wand/Book). If the 80% damage boost from concentrated blast accounts for more than 5% increase in raw DPS, then Ahrim's Wand and book, Raw DPS wise, will be better than chaotic staff.

 

I do not have actual figures for the DPS difference between 2h and dw (given the same rotation barring Sonic wave/conc blast), but I imagine it to be comparatively high as concentrated blast should be the second most used ability, right after wrack (but it is a distant second).

[primadog]

chew2's overview is correct, so I'll just supply the math to back it up:

 

Magic damage - Auto-attacks

 

MH = 9.6 * Spell level + Magic level

OH = 0.5 * MH

2H = MH + OH + 7.8 * Weapon Level

 

The numbers are round down at each step, which is why for precise calculation the above steps are necessary. If you ignore rounding, the formulas simplify to:

 

MH = 9.6 * Spell level + Magic level

OH = 4.8 * Spell level + 0.5 * Magic level

2H = 14.4 * Spell level + 1.5 * Magic level + 7.8 * Weapon level

 

Magic damage - Abilities

 

For abilities, the base damage (100%) is:

 

Dmg = 9.6 * Spell level + 5.2 * Weapon level + 1.5 Magic level

 

Weapon level is that of your staff OR off-hand (but crucially not main hand). For wand only, the formula is same as auto-attack.

 

---

 

Setup:

Ahrim Wand + Orb (tier 70) vs Chaotic Staff (tier 80)

99 Magic, Fire Blast (capped at 90), no boosts/eq bonus,

 

Auto-attacks:

 

MH = 9.6 * 90 + 99 = 963

OH = 481

2H = 963 + 481 + 7.8 * 80 = 2068

 

Ahrim Wand has a max damage of 963 with Fastest speed (4 ticks, 2.4 sec); Ahrim Orb has a max damage of 481 with Fastest speed (4 ticks, 2.4 sec); Chaotic Staff has a max damage of 2068 with Average speed (6 ticks, 3.6 sec);

 

(Average damage is 50% of max damage)

 

DPS:

 

Ahrim Wand + Orb = 50% * ( 963 + 481 ) / 2.4 = 300.8

Chaotic Staff = 50% * 2068 / 3.6 = 287.2

 

Effectively for auto-attacks, you're doing tier 90 damage with Ahrim Orb+Wand while only tier 86 damage with Chaotic Staff.

 

 

Abilities:

 

Ahrim Wand + Orb:

 

Dmg = 9.6 * 90 + 5.2 * 70 + 1.5 * 90 = 1376

 

* Note that this is true for any dual wield setup with Ahrim Orb.

 

Chaotic Staff:

 

Dmg = 9.6 * 90 + 5.2 * 80 + 1.5 * 99 = 1428

 

 

I'm less sure about the average damage for abilities, but assuming average is also 50% of max for both Concentrated Blast and Sonic Wave:

 

Concentrated Blast = 1376 * 200% * 50% = 1376

Sonic Wave = 1428 * 120% * 50% = 856

 

 

Overall, Ahrim Wand+Orb deals about ~5% more damage than Chaotic Staff when auto-attacking; and Concentrated Blast deals 60% more damage than Sonic Wave.

[Cheefoo]

chew2's overview is correct, so I'll just supply the math to back it up:

 

Magic damage - Auto-attacks

 

MH = 9.6 * Spell level + Magic level

OH = 0.5 * MH

2H = MH + OH + 7.8 * Weapon Level

 

The numbers are round down at each step, which is why for precise calculation the above steps are necessary. If you ignore rounding, the formulas simplify to:

 

MH = 9.6 * Spell level + Magic level

OH = 4.8 * Spell level + 0.5 * Magic level

2H = 14.4 * Spell level + 1.5 * Magic level + 7.8 * Weapon level

 

Magic damage - Abilities

 

For abilities, the base damage (100%) is:

 

Dmg = 9.6 * Spell level + 5.2 * Weapon level + 1.5 Magic level

 

Weapon level is that of your staff OR off-hand (but crucially not main hand). For wand only, the formula is same as auto-attack.

 

---

 

Setup:

Ahrim Wand + Orb (tier 70) vs Chaotic Staff (tier 80)

99 Magic, Fire Blast (capped at 90), no boosts/eq bonus,

 

Auto-attacks:

 

MH = 9.6 * 90 + 99 = 963

OH = 481

2H = 963 + 481 + 7.8 * 80 = 2068

 

Ahrim Wand has a max damage of 963 with Fastest speed (4 ticks, 2.4 sec); Ahrim Orb has a max damage of 481 with Fastest speed (4 ticks, 2.4 sec); Chaotic Staff has a max damage of 2068 with Average speed (6 ticks, 3.6 sec);

 

(Average damage is 50% of max damage)

 

DPS:

 

Ahrim Wand + Orb = 50% * ( 963 + 481 ) / 2.4 = 300.8

Chaotic Staff = 50% * 2068 / 3.6 = 287.2

 

Effectively for auto-attacks, you're doing tier 90 damage with Ahrim Orb+Wand while only tier 86 damage with Chaotic Staff.

 

 

Abilities:

 

Ahrim Wand + Orb:

 

Dmg = 9.6 * 90 + 5.2 * 70 + 1.5 * 90 = 1376

 

* Note that this is true for any dual wield setup with Ahrim Orb.

 

Chaotic Staff:

 

Dmg = 9.6 * 90 + 5.2 * 80 + 1.5 * 99 = 1428

 

 

I'm less sure about the average damage for abilities, but assuming average is also 50% of max for both Concentrated Blast and Sonic Wave:

 

Concentrated Blast = 1376 * 200% * 50% = 1376

Sonic Wave = 1428 * 120% * 50% = 856

 

 

Overall, Ahrim Wand+Orb deals about ~5% more damage than Chaotic Staff when auto-attacking; and Concentrated Blast deals 60% more damage than Sonic Wave.

 

I'm not sure how level 70 weapons would deal level 90 damage, when a level 80 weapon apparently deals level 86 damage. Besides, you should rarely be autoattacking, only once at the beginning of the fight, and that greatly favors the large burst damage of a staff. Fastest speed weapons can sneak in a single hit in between some abilties if you delay them, but it's generally not worth it at all.

 

I think it might also be a good idea to cancel out of concentrated blast as soon as you can. It still gets two hits and you don't have to sacrifice your adrenaline building. The third hit deals only 100% damage with a slightly better chance to crit, but it essentially takes up a tick in which you could use a better ability to gain adrenaline with and deal more damage. So it's 100% damage with ~20% extra crit chance vs. 157% damage (wrack with ice spells) and 8% adren gain.

 

P.S. I appreciate all the effort and information you've shared, but I think you should consider adding parentheses to your formulas. I don't get how (9.6*90)+99 could equal 963 Oops. First time I read it I thought it was 96 instead of 90. Got confused when I was typing it out but didn't realize I wasn't mistaken.

[chenw]

Punch it into your calculator, (9.6*90) = 864, 864+99 = 963.

 

The auto attack at the start of the fight is rarely an issue, because that auto attack should only really happen if you are fighting something with low HP AND they are spaced far enough apart that no matter where you kill them you have to move between two monsters. otherwise there should rarely occur.

 

Autoattack damage is also calculated differently from Abilities damage, Autoattack damage is generally dealt "as it says on the tin", which makes T70 weapons deal full t90 damage on auto attacks, on the virtue that all Wand/Orb weapons take their damage entirely from spells itself with little modifiers, while staves have auto scale built in there somewhere, which makes wand/orb pretty much always better in average DPS than staves given the same spell. Abilities are a completely different matter, because the complicated calculations that is required in order to bring weapons of all speeds on the same DPS.

[Cheefoo]

It looks like lower leveled magic DW got nerfed. Well that makes the choice simpler now.

[chenw]

A lot simpler, unfortunately,

 

especially considering that Magic T90 MH is more expensive than the entire BIS sets for both Ranged and Melee combined.