Balancing weapons (formerly "useless weapons")

[Raichase]

Think about it, the whip's only source is the Abyssal Demon, requiring 85 Slayer to kill. This mens only people who have 85 Slayer can put more of these whips into the economy. Thus, the whip is not as easy to obtain as, say, the Dragon Longsword. To compensate for this, the stats of the whip are VERY worth the time taken to get one. If it's just as effective to use a Dragon long, why bother getting a whip?

 

 

 

Ahh, perhaps you misread the idea (I think it was unsaid between Lim and I).

 

 

 

We are not wanting to make all the high-grade weapons equal, merely all those of a particular TYPE somewhat equal in a broad view. A whip *should* be better than a dragon long, but a dragon long should be better/worse than the Scimmy in such a way that it makes people think twice about choosing one for a certain task.

 

 

 

Perhaps if we started with the conventional weapons (ie bronze->rune) and then addressed the fancy pants stuff later?

 

 

 

Also, I forgot to mention that I have only ever seen claws used once, and that was by a guy toting all the member junk he could to walk around in a free world (so yes, thats red/blue castle wars armour, mixed with blue mystic mixed with steel claws mixed with... etc.)

[starev91]

Well...

 

 

 

Maybe if Jagex made the weaknesses of platearmour to crush more extreme, and the same for others? This would revolutionize the wildy as people with a mace would do well against a guy in platearmour with a d long (supposing they had the same platearmour). This would bring more strategy to the wildy too :)

[Unrealist]

Think about it, the whip's only source is the Abyssal Demon, requiring 85 Slayer to kill. This mens only people who have 85 Slayer can put more of these whips into the economy. Thus, the whip is not as easy to obtain as, say, the Dragon Longsword. To compensate for this, the stats of the whip are VERY worth the time taken to get one. If it's just as effective to use a Dragon long, why bother getting a whip?

 

 

 

Ahh, perhaps you misread the idea (I think it was unsaid between Lim and I).

 

 

 

We are not wanting to make all the high-grade weapons equal, merely all those of a particular TYPE somewhat equal in a broad view. A whip *should* be better than a dragon long, but a dragon long should be better/worse than the Scimmy in such a way that it makes people think twice about choosing one for a certain task.

 

 

 

Perhaps if we started with the conventional weapons (ie bronze->rune) and then addressed the fancy pants stuff later?

 

 

 

Also, I forgot to mention that I have only ever seen claws used once, and that was by a guy toting all the member junk he could to walk around in a free world (so yes, thats red/blue castle wars armour, mixed with blue mystic mixed with steel claws mixed with... etc.)

 

 

 

Ah, I see now. My apologies.

 

 

 

Well, in one case, if you have no need for poison, you'd be better off using an Obsidian Knife over a Dragon Dagger.

 

 

 

...and most who read this will think "What the f**k is an Obsidian Knife?"

 

 

 

As to Lim's question about the "other maul", it was an Obsidian Maul. The failure was, I think, due to lack of special. The attack animation is pretty nice, though.

[Lim_Dul]

 

What would you do to attack speed, keep it the same?. I also wouldn't mind seeing it wielded like the Barbarians when it's not being used to belt someone :).

 

 

 

I think for the sake of simplicity, the adjustments should be focused on either bonuses, or speed, but not both. Theoretically this would make the proposed update more appealing to Jagex, because it wouldn't be such a massive undertaking.

 

 

 

The possible problem with this, is that the bonuses might have to be increased too much to account for the current speed advantages. For instance, the rune battleaxe might have to have bonuses as high as dragon weapons to match the rune scimitar. In that case then the only recourse would be to alter the speeds of weapons as well.

 

 

 

Raichase is correct on the abyssal whip. I don't think all weapons should be balanced out, but the weapons of equivilent class, like same metal, should be comparable in ability.

 

 

 

I would like to see the gap between some weapons reduced though. From what I hear the abyssal whip so greatly outpaces anything else, such as a dragon scimitar for example, that it becomes the only weapon used by people who can afford it. The result is many players being carbon copies of one another, which is rather disinteresting. Optimally the whip could be the most desireable weapon for many situations, but if you are killing knights, then a maul would have the edge. I don't think one weapon should be the best for fighting every type of opponent.

 

 

 

I completely forgot about claws. Obviously I have no experience with them, in fact I think I've only seen them being weilded once. I'm under the impression these are the pinnacle of useless weapons.

[Eyrelex]

Ive just been stickin with the long sword from the beginning and i dont see any real difference in performance between the scimmy and the long as ive used both, but i always get the occasional and ever annoyin "scimmys are better", or somethin along those lines. But aren't the weapons already in a way balanced, the weaker weapons like the daggers are quite fast, and the stronger weapons like the 2hs are quite slow, so the speed and power are balanced. One person usin a dagger can get more hits in, while a person usin a 2h can do about the same damage in one hit, theoretically speakin of course. Also I am only talkin about F2P weapons, as i dont hav any knowledge of P2P weapons.

[Unrealist]

Not everyone's a carbon copy in P2P. Most people who can afford whips use differing armors:

 

 

 

The really Combat-Minded shell out enough for a Whip, Full Torag, Obsidian Cape + Shield and Metal or Climbing boots. (What I'm working towards, actually)

 

 

 

The Ultra-Mega-Super rich fellows go for the Full Dragon look.

 

 

 

The less wealthy use a Whip and Full rune. Alternatively, Whip and Dragonhides.

 

 

 

Then there are those who have a Whip and nothing else.

 

 

 

Due to the enourmous variety of equipment on P2P, almost nobody looks the same as another. In F2P, granted, it's not the same. If you want variety in looks, why not get P2P?

 

 

 

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Claws are, indeed, useless. They're 2 handed daggers that can't be poisoned, and I've only ever seen them used once, by some delusional fellow who thought "Pmg poison is cheap nd cowardly". (I actually killed this fellow in a subsequent CW match - with a DDS :roll: )

[jwrm22]

isnt that the same reson why you put rapid fire on?

[Lim_Dul]

isnt that the same reson why you put rapid fire on?

 

 

 

Of course rapid fire is the attack virtually always used. But what I'm saying is, the shortbow completely eliminates any use for the longbow, because the shortbow is much faster. The same can be said for the crossbow, it's too slow to serve any purpose. Why not make it to where all the weapons can be used effectively, so people who want to use a longbow or crossbow can do so, without putting themselves at an immense disadvantage in training or pking.

 

 

 

Due to the enourmous variety of equipment on P2P, almost nobody looks the same as another. In F2P, granted, it's not the same. If you want variety in looks, why not get P2P?

 

 

 

This isn't an issue of P2p vs. F2p. The issue here is that many weapons in the game, in both members and nonmembers worlds, are grossly outclassed by other weapons. For example the warhammer, many players want to use a warhammer, because they like the concept or believe it should be superior against plate armor (which it should). The problem is they can't use the weapon, because Jagex has made it so pitifully weak and slow. Why has Jagex made weapons which are utterly useless, While they've made other weapons clearly superior for every application?

 

 

 

Eyrelex, I would suggest you average your xp per hour with the longsword and compare it with the scimitar. I haven't averaged xp in a long time so I can't recall what the ultimate results are, but it's at least a 15% difference. I want to say the longsword is the second best rune weapon, but don't quote me.

[Raichase]

Hehe, I actually ran a little experiment last night in the dwarf mines.

 

 

 

I've been killing time waiting for my membership to kick back in, mostly by walking around and making an [wagon] out of myself.

 

 

 

So, last night, I'm wandering around in the Dwarf mines, trying to grab me some addy ore, and whilst waiting for rocks to respawn, I'm mining and dropping mith/coal/gold, as well as shooting scorps.

 

 

 

Now, playing "in theme", when a scorp manages to get over to me in one piece, I pull out my little rune dagger (my ONLY rune f2p weapon, I'm sad to say :P) and pummel it to death.

 

 

 

I was promptly told that my pickaxe was a better weapon, and I thought "now thats just silly". Why should a ranger be BETTER at fighting with a giant, unweildy pickaxe, than with a small dagger....

[Lim_Dul]

I could certainly see a pickaxe being a better weapon than a dagger. In fact, warhammers were really closer in resemblance to pickaxes than hammers.

 

 

 

The other day a great idea hit me relating to this topic. Why don't spears hit across obstacles like the halberds do? I would argue that a spear could lay greater claim to this special ability than a halberd. The reason for the pole of a halberd is to increase the energy generated at the axe head, not to have a longer striking distance. The spear and subsequent pike on the other hand, were designed specifically with range in mind. If the spear were given the added benefit of using safespots, many people would resort to them for training. Spears might need additional tweaking to bring them up to snuff, but safespots would go a long way to giving them legitimacy.

[Raichase]

The other day a great idea hit me relating to this topic. Why don't spears hit across obstacles like the halberds do?

 

 

 

Good idea. I also believe that they could be made F2P too, as I find it amusing that such a weapon is P2P only ("Join members, and you can attack from a safespot with a long stick!!!!1111" - whoo).

 

 

 

Wouldn't mind seeing them become smithable too - "Use spear head with spear shaft".

 

 

 

The spearhead being made from 1 bar and the shaft being made by using a knife on normal logs.

[Lim_Dul]

Wouldn't mind seeing them become smithable too - "Use spear head with spear shaft".

 

 

 

The spearhead being made from 1 bar and the shaft being made by using a knife on normal logs.

 

 

 

There are several items which I believe should be added to the smithing tables. There's no reason pickaxes, halberds and spears wouldn't be smithable items. This would be a fantastic update for smiths, as it would add a few profitable items (a rarity in these days) to the skill.

 

 

 

I just saw a third maul a couple days ago. This seems rather absurd that Jagex would add a third chapter to the saga of letdowns that is the maul. I think the granite maul had too much emphasis placed on it's special attack. If the special attack used the entire special bar for instance, but the attack and strength bonuses were higher, this would make it more consistantly useful. This would make it appeal to higher level players than those which use it currently.

 

 

 

Is there some sort of hierarchy to the mauls now? I don't understand why they keep rehashing a weapon, making none of them suitable for high levels to use.

[mageoftheage2]

actually in at least one instance hallies where designed for length advantage it was peasents with 18 foot hallies vs knights with 12 foot spears-the hallies won.

 

 

 

 

 

who knows, maybe in RS3 these ideas will be put into place(unfortunately a long wait).

 

 

 

edit: mounted, charging knights.and yes the correct term is lances(I was simplifying for the less knowledgeable)

[Zonorhc]

actually in at least one instance hallies where designed for length advantage it was peasents with 18 foot hallies vs knights with 12 foot spears-the hallies won.

 

 

 

I assume you mean lances vs. halberds? I don't think I've ever seen any sources depicting knights on foot wielding spears like peasants. Come to think of it, I've never seen anything like an eighteen-foot-long halberd.

 

 

 

18 feet is a ridiculous length for a halberd. Seriously. What you look for in a halberd is a haft that's little more than eight feet long, with a heavy axe blade, a [bleep]e for thrusting, and a fluke behind the blade to unhorse knights.

 

 

 

The purpose of a halberd is to use them en masse against cavalry charges, much like the pike - hence the [bleep]e on top. However, unlike the pike, once the charge pushes through, the halberd can still be used to hack up horses and pull knights to the ground. The main disadvantage of the halberd vis a vis the pike is the length, seeing as the pike was a sixteen-foot-long piece of sharp wood.

 

 

 

I could certainly see a pickaxe being a better weapon than a dagger.

 

 

 

I would say no to that. The man using the pickaxe has one swing before the one with the dagger is well inside his guard. The pickaxe was never intended to be a weapon, hence it is not balanced properly for use in combat, and the head is designed to be heavy in order to impart more kinetic energy through a focal point.

 

 

 

A dagger, however, is a tried-and-true weapon of war, brawling, and everything in between.

[Lim_Dul]

 

I would say no to that. The man using the pickaxe has one swing before the one with the dagger is well inside his guard. The pickaxe was never intended to be a weapon, hence it is not balanced properly for use in combat, and the head is designed to be heavy in order to impart more kinetic energy through a focal point.

 

 

 

A dagger, however, is a tried-and-true weapon of war, brawling, and everything in between.

 

 

 

The energy generated by a pickaxe was precisely what I meant. That would be capable of dealing a devastating blow and especially against armor. A dagger would be of little consequence against plate armor, though suitable for use against chain maille. The pickaxe would also have a sizeable reach advantage over a dagger.

 

 

 

I wish I could post a link, but there is one website in particular which gives some great information on medieval weaponry. It states that the "warhammer" would most closely be associated with a pickaxe. here's a picture I scrounged up, it's not the most pickesque warhammer ever, but you can see the concept is the same.