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Balancing weapons (formerly "useless weapons")


Lim_Dul

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This is a topic which has been on my mind since rather early on, when I started playing runescape. Bear in mind this pertains to F2p primarily, if not entirely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I first started out, I figured I would choose a weapon type, and continue to use it through each of it's forms (iron, steel, mith etc.). I figured the mace would be a pretty neat weapon to use, and I didn't see many people using it, which would set me apart. I very quickly learned the mace couldn't even remotely compete with other weapons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I moved on from the mace, to the battle axe. I figured since the battle axe is made from 3 bars of metal, it must be very good for all this expense, plus they just plain look wicked. I adopted the battle axe, and progressed with it all the way through to rune. It seemed alright, until I began to pk regularly, and I started to notice I was consistantly losing fights to equal or lower leveled opponents using scimitars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This lead me to do some studies on weapon effectiveness. My results were very clear. The rune scimitar beats all other rune weapons in effectiveness by a wide margin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The results of this weapon effectiveness gap, is that everyone in the wilderness looks like a carbon copy of one another. 90% of pkers, if not more, use the rune scimitar. The other weapons are relegated to players who don't know any better, and the occassional r2h or battle axe appear for the shock and awe aspect. This seems silly to me, if there are going to be so many weapon varieties, shouldn't they be be somewhat evenly balanced in capabilities?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This problem isn't limited to melee weapons. For ranging weapons, how many times have you seen someone using a crossbow or longbow in the wilderness? These weapons pack no more punch than a shortbow, yet are so abysmally slow, they serve no purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why doesn't Jagex make an attempt to raise the bonuses of the weapons that cannot compete? Wouldn't it be more entertaining if everyone used their own weapon with different attributes instead of the same old scimitar and shortbow?

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it was balanced on p2p till whips came out thanks to specials (baxe was actually made worse since its special wasnt good for pking).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on f2p 2hs and baxes are good for switching after you use your scim. some people like longs too and they're decent in multi, and so are baxes for the whole fight instead of just as a weapon to switch to. mace, axe, short swords and stuff are worthless tho because well some things have to be for the newbs.

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It would make too much sense, that's why.

 

 

 

Your point is that everyone is going to go for the best weapon out there.

 

 

 

Gee.... go figure. Not like the hatchet is going to take over the world.

 

 

 

And you are correct about the Bax. It absolutely is pointless.

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This is kind of what Jagex were tring to do with barrow weapons - bring more recognition to the lesser used weapons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Verac's Flail - Mace

 

 

 

Dharok's Greataxe - Battleaxe

 

 

 

Torag's Hammers - Warhammer

 

 

 

Guthan's Warspear - Spear

 

 

 

Karil's Crossbow - Crossbow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These weapons are almost never used in their Bronze-Rune/Dragon counterparts. Why? Because they don't fight well. Take spears (I know you're F2P, but this is to illustrate my point).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spears can ony train on Controlled or Defensive. They are 2-handed for the most part, (exception: Bone Spear, useless weapon) so no shields. The D spear spec doesn't do much in terms of combat, except when it comes to PKers who try to stop runners, or in CW, with EFC's. They have a reach of 1 square, unlike halberds, but they can be poisoned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bottom line, nearly anything a spear does, a Halberd does better. The 2 small saving graces are poison and faster speed. A halberd has longer reach, better attack styles, in Dragon's case better special, and a better strength bonus. Thus, more people use halberds and less use spears.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From what I gather, in RSC the best weapon was the R2H. Look what's happened to it now.

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I agree, it's really upsetting. However, a lot of pkers and gamers in general, will analyse a weapon to the death, and pick out the single best one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In RSC, everyone had a long sword, battle axe, or (at least in the early days) those who could afford it, a 2h.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the advent of RS2, the 2h sword plummeted in price (I remember seeing R2h's going for many millions of gp, back in the days before rares being over 100k and before rune 2h's were commonplace). The scimmy became the weapon of choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I toyed with the warhammer, thinking "ooh, goody, an anti-plate sucker", but just didn't attack as fast as the scimmy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I toyed with the mace in RS2, because of the prayer bonus, but it's not enough to make up for such a lame weapon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I admit that as you progress your smithing level, the weapons should get more powerfull. But, there should still be a reason to use a rune dagger over a rune long for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you again Lim, and it's not only a F2P problem (but, certainly a predominant one more visible in F2P) but a game-wide problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't mind chatting possible solutions though?

Raichase, quit Runescape.

 

Time issues really, nothing against the game itself. Something had to go, and it happened to be the addictive game that costs money to enjoy :)

 

Best of luck to all of my friends here!

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I toyed with the warhammer, thinking "ooh, goody, an anti-plate sucker", but just didn't attack as fast as the scimmy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The warhammer is one of the most grossly undperpowered weapons. It has all the cost of a a R2h, the poor speed of a battle axe, and less strength then a longsword. Add that all up and you've got an official paperweight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the biggest problem is that the weapon speeds play the biggest role in a weapons effectiveness. The faster weapons consistantly beat the slower, more powerful and more expensive weapons. The easiest solution would be for Jagex to close the weapon speed gap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the 2h hit as fast as the battle axe it might actually be able to go the distance against a scimitar. Then in turn increase the warhammer and battle axe attack speed to that of the longsword, and have the longsword match the scimitar. That seems like it would be a step in the right direction, though some additional tweaking would probably be required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the ranged weapons, the crossbow and longbow need to get some sort of added bonus to allow them to deal more damage per hit. The crossbow for instance, could be made more effective against plate armor than the short and longbow.

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I'd actually think the longbow would be better to put a shaft right through plate. Shortbows are good for snap shots at close distance, without too much power. You just can't get the draw weight or length out of a short piece of wood without snapping it. A historical longbow with a draw length of 28in and weight 100lb+ could put a bodkin through plate, under the right circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the end, though, tests show that plate stops the vast majority of arrows, unless they hit a joint or an unprotected spot.

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Maybe if we were half-forced to use different weapons against different monsters it would liven up the smithing table.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like maces would be effective against humans but not against demons. Scims would be good against animals but not against opponents with heavy armor. And so forth. :oops:

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Maybe if we were half-forced to use different weapons against different monsters it would liven up the smithing table.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like maces would be effective against humans but not against demons. Scims would be good against animals but not against opponents with heavy armor. And so forth. :oops:

 

 

 

yeah something like that sounds good. except maces would be good against demons because maces are a "holy" weapon in runescape (they give prayer bonus to prove it).

 

 

 

the good thing with dragon weapons is that they're all unique (specials) so they're all used also because there are quest requirements to use them that get quite hard (example: monkey madness) . from dagger to mace to long sword to battle axe to two hander.

 

 

 

too bad it isn't the same with bronze-rune. but i really don't see how jagex could just change that.

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The warhammer is one of the most grossly undperpowered weapons. It has all the cost of a a R2h, the poor speed of a battle axe, and less strength then a longsword. Add that all up and you've got an official paperweight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, exactly. One of the more exiting weapons of RS2, was a bit sad. I thought "hey good, the plate-busting power of a 2h, but with a sheild". But no. Just no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

biggest problem is that the weapon speeds play the biggest role in a weapons effectiveness. The faster weapons consistantly beat the slower, more powerful and more expensive weapons. The easiest solution would be for Jagex to close the weapon speed gap.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is the root of the problem. However back in RSC, weapon speed meant precious little, it was all about the power you could get for your buck. Weapons all hit the same vs plate as they did vs chain (it was a pure defence stat boost, with nothing else), so the 2h was the weapon to have, if you had good armour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The battle did almost the same job, but let you keep a sheild. The longsword was better used against monsters, because it had less power and was a lot cheaper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The short sword, mace, dagger and scimmy were useless. There was no point even using them for looks, because the short, dagger and scimmy all looked like a longsword when weilded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Weapon speeds were INTENDED to make the wepaons work better in certain situations, and stop there being a "catch all" pker weapon that everyone wants. The RS2 made the first 99 smithers millions of gp, which would be like having a billion gp today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Weapon Speeds, plus an emphasis on attack types was a nice idea, but the advantages/disadvantages were/are not enough or too much. For example, the warhammers advantage vs plate fails to work when compared with a scimmy, that may hit 5/10 times on plate, which is hitting far faster than the warhammer or 2h, which may be hitting 7/10 times, but at a far slower attack speed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the 2h hit as fast as the battle axe it might actually be able to go the distance against a scimitar. Then in turn increase the warhammer and battle axe attack speed to that of the longsword, and have the longsword match the scimitar. That seems like it would be a step in the right direction, though some additional tweaking would probably be required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, the problem is, then you're just swapping everyone over to the 2h as being the best weapon again. Perhaps people would use the longsword again for NPC killing, and people more interested in defence would grab the battleaxe out again and their kite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really, I think there should be MORE differentiation between the weapons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take the longsword as our "median" weapon. Give it average stats, and an attack speed of medium. Let it be weilded in a single hand, and be good against chainmail/leather.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, going down the scale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have the scimmy attack slightly faster than the longsword, but with slightly less power. It must be calibrated so that any advantage of the speed will be more or less lost by the strengh or accuracy. So, that in a 5 minute fight, I can hit roughly the same amount of damage as if I were using a longsword. This would be the preffered weapon in a shorter fight, but not as good in a longer fight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The short sword (or "sword" as it's called now), should be faster again, and BETTER then a longsword at piercing chainmail or d.hide, but make it reduced power. Essentially you want to balance it out as the ideal weapon to use against a mage or ranged character, because it will be attacking fast, hitting a lot against weak armour, but not hitting as high as a long sword. This will make it good in a short fight, so you can get hits in before they run away. Make it lame vs plate :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bring your mace speed DOWN a bit (who can honestly swing a top-heavy sucker like that around in one hand that fast), but make it a powerfull crushing weapon, thats almost useless on chainmail. Drag that prayer bonus up, to make it worthwhile to a warrior priest/monk character. Very little damage vs chain, slow to attack with, but a GOOD prayer bonus, andhave it hit alot/do higher damage on plate. This would be a good choice for a monk character or someone not interested in killing, but doing damage to warriors that attack them. A good non-pker weapon to be sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dagger. Eheheh :). I wouldn't mind seeing the poisoned combat daggers being f2p, but you do run into the issue of getting anti-poison pots, and if not herblore, do you buy them from members, or the chemist or what. Would also bring melee power up too much in the wildy with the present triangle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make this weapon the fastest of them all, and I mean FAST. I want to see it hitting at twice the speed of a longsword (perhaps faster), but being good against chainmail, and hitting low damge. So, as it is now, but a lot faster, to make it great for a ranger/mage to use as a HTH weapon vs other mages/rangers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Going forwards form the Long now...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Warhammer. Bring it's crushing power WAY up, and perhaps slap on a prayer bonus, the same as the mace. I seem to remember warrior monks using a hammer as a weapon in some fantasy novel or other. Bring the speed down, slower than a mace, but hitting harder. Make it VERY good against plate, but near useless against leather/d.hide, and pointless vs chainmail. Again, it would be another good non-pker weapon, or a weapon good against plate armoured foes (good in the duel arena when you take in all of your weapons and really grab the best one for the moment)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Battle-axe. I would bring this into two hands, TBH. Make it very anti-plate, but also decent against d.hide or leather. Not too crash hot against chainmail. Making it 2h, I would bring the accuracy of it down, but bring it's power above the 2h sword. Make it a very powerfull, but slow weapon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 2-hander, would then fill the role of a battle-axe, only with less power, slightly more speed (still the second slowest weapon though) and more flexibility. Still, it has to be worth using over using a long/sheild combo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heck, even dump the 2-hander altogether, and replace the long with the "broad sword" which could be weilded in one or two hands. Then, bring the short up to the stats of a long, and work from there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the ranged weapons, the crossbow and longbow need to get some sort of added bonus to allow them to deal more damage per hit. The crossbow for instance, could be made more effective against plate armor than the short and longbow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The increased range of the longbow is all fine and dandy when NPC training, as you get all of one extra shot off at range, then they get into shortbow range, and you're firing slower than if you had a short. Pking, someone can run so fast that by the time you've swapped to a longbow and attacked them again, they are out of range anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to the crossbow, it was average at best in RSC days. I remember it being moderatly powerfull, but the advantage of the sheild was good. However, it just can't compete with the other bows, even with it's fancy ammo (which is a bitach to get the materials for and make, even for P2P). It's especially stepped on in F2P, where it IS useless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree, give the crossbow an upgrade, perhaps smithable arrow heads, and you add them to the bolts. Make the bolts F2P (up to the current level of the F2P arrows), and use the fletching skill to attack to the existing bolts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Short range, plus sheild plus the similar ammo of a bow, would be a fair trade. Give the rarer bolts advantages (perhaps poisoning barbed bolts, making pear/opal bolts do something else, I dunno), and generally bring it into line with the bows, in both F2P and P2P, because really, it's not a F2P update like a new quest or skill, but it's something that should happen just to bring the F2P game into line with what you expect fromm P2P.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments?

Raichase, quit Runescape.

 

Time issues really, nothing against the game itself. Something had to go, and it happened to be the addictive game that costs money to enjoy :)

 

Best of luck to all of my friends here!

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Very detailed analysis raichase. I agree wholeheartedly with much of what you say, but I think the 2h battle axe role is filled by the dharok great axe. I think the r2h needs to stay, as it is the rune two hand sword.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the 2h sword would still be pretty even with the other weapons at the speed of the current battle axe. The current 2h is quite unimpressive in battle. Even with it's chances of hitting nice damage, it isn't really all that accurate, plus its lack of a shield hinders it quite a bit. Its accuracy and strength are supposed to be so overwhelming as to make up the shield deficiency. Currently a scimitar with no armor or shield is better than a 2h with no armor or shield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really like the idea of the prayer bonus for the mace. That adds a bit of an unusual element to it, but it's such a tiny bonus that it really serves no purpose. I'd say it probably needs the bonus of an entire set of monk robes to really have any effect on the outcome of a fight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All these ideas are great and all, but how do we make the leap from dreams to reality? I know in the past I've sent comments to Jagex which received nothing but form letter responses. Do those petitions ever get any changes implemented by Jagex? I genuinely want to see these concepts brought to fruition in future updates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off topic: One update that I never saw much comment on was the 2h graphics change. I think Jagex did a nice job with that, and I don't really understand what brought it about. I certainly didn't hear any outcry that the 2h looked terrible prior to the update. That was a pleasant alteration, kudos to Jagex.

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Very detailed analysis raichase. I agree wholeheartedly with much of what you say, but I think the 2h battle axe role is filled by the dharok great axe. I think the r2h needs to stay, as it is the rune two hand sword.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, fair point. I just thought it would give the warhammer a bit more of an edge if it was THE one-handed crushing weapon, and the battle axe was the power-heavy 2h weapon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I disagree about this role being filled with the Dharok Great Axe. It's really good with it's set bonus, but thats a very specialised bonus. You have to find someone being willing to take the immense risk of a low HP just to hit higher with what looks like a cool weapon. Also, the Great Axe is P2P only, and F2P and P2P alike would really get a lot from the update. As well as the fact that it's an update that wouldn't lend itself to being P2P only: "Get P2P, the weapons all change and the weapon you were using might not be the one you want to use anymore".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the 2h sword would still be pretty even with the other weapons at the speed of the current battle axe. The current 2h is quite unimpressive in battle. Even with it's chances of hitting nice damage, it isn't really all that accurate, plus its lack of a shield hinders it quite a bit. Its accuracy and strength are supposed to be so overwhelming as to make up the shield deficiency. Currently a scimitar with no armor or shield is better than a 2h with no armor or shield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. Especially the last sentance, that REALLY annoys me. A R2h should be able to match a scimmy when the scimmy has a sheild. But, currently it doesn't...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really like the idea of the prayer bonus for the mace. That adds a bit of an unusual element to it, but it's such a tiny bonus that it really serves no purpose. I'd say it probably needs the bonus of an entire set of monk robes to really have any effect on the outcome of a fight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly. If it's a mediocre weapon with a good prayer bonus, defensive players, non-pkers or skillers in the wilderness would LOVE it. It would be used. And, it would be used by players using it not just for raw stats, but because in that situation it would be better than another weapon. I know I would take a rune/dragon mace with me into the wilderness on a clue hunt, if I knew it would help my prayer more than it would help my ablitity to hit someone hard enough and hope they ran away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All these ideas are great and all, but how do we make the leap from dreams to reality? I know in the past I've sent comments to Jagex which received nothing but form letter responses. Do those petitions ever get any changes implemented by Jagex? I genuinely want to see these concepts brought to fruition in future updates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats the tough thing. Jagex (understandably) doesn't just grab random ideas from people. And, a lot of people with petitions have not thought the WHOLE idea through, and Jagex (who know their game better than anyone) can find the faults that we cannot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first step would be to dump this in runescape suggestions and feedback, rather than the rants forum, as we've established there is a problem, and started to thrash it out. Finding a possible solution as we have, we need to get it out of the rants, and into a place where we can discuss the solution, rather than the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then, we would need to really thrash the idea out amongst ourselves, discussing game balance, as well as any spash effects (store prices of these weapons, smithing costs/avaliability/level/high-alch price, quest requirements, etc).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we can flesh ALL aspects of the idea out and come up with solutions for those problems too, then they would be more likely to at least read the idea, perhaps even considering it before they reject or agree with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off topic: One update that I never saw much comment on was the 2h graphics change. I think Jagex did a nice job with that, and I don't really understand what brought it about. I certainly didn't hear any outcry that the 2h looked terrible prior to the update. That was a pleasant alteration, kudos to Jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remember the 2h looked rather awkward held the way it was, and at a glance didn't look much different to the longsword. I think that players commented on the official forums, which set them to thinking "hey, perhaps we can go a step better", and did the redraw.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It certainly looks cool now, yes. Thats parrtially what made me want to take the Battle to 2h, as thats how the barbarians hold theirs ;).

Raichase, quit Runescape.

 

Time issues really, nothing against the game itself. Something had to go, and it happened to be the addictive game that costs money to enjoy :)

 

Best of luck to all of my friends here!

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I'm terribly sorry for neglecting this thread so long. I'm going to request it be moved to Suggestions and discussions.

 

 

 

No problem. I've been quite busy with my new job recently too, so have not had time to think any more about it either.

Raichase, quit Runescape.

 

Time issues really, nothing against the game itself. Something had to go, and it happened to be the addictive game that costs money to enjoy :)

 

Best of luck to all of my friends here!

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Then, we would need to really thrash the idea out amongst ourselves, discussing game balance, as well as any spash effects (store prices of these weapons, smithing costs/avaliability/level/high-alch price, quest requirements, etc).

 

 

 

I don't think there would be any adjustments needed in store prices. The weapon prices reflect greater abilities in the weapons specifically needing improvements. Weapon prices are mostly at the mercy of players buying and selling now anyway, very few people actually pay store prices to obtain weapons anymore.

 

 

 

Most of what we've discussed in this thread thus far has been about rune weapons. I'm really interested to hear what people have to say about the current balance of dragon, and other p2p weapons. From what I understand the abyssal whip has no rival. That seems a tad bit silly to me, since a whip isn't even intended to be a lethal weapon in reality.

 

 

 

Didn't Jagex reduce the attack and strength bonuses of the granite maul considerably shortly after it's release? What specifically brought that reform about, and could it be reproduced to convince Jagex to revamp the entire weapons catalogue?

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You have to remember though, that the whip is some kind of demonic-type weapon, not simply your standard bit of leather. It probably has some kind of abyssal magic in it which makes it incredibly powerful. Whatever. It's a fantasy weapon for the most part.

 

 

 

I don't know what Jagex did to the G maul, as I was not a member back then. I do know it had something to do with the special, which (I think) was changed to a weaker one.

 

 

 

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Onto dragon weapons.

 

 

 

 

 

The dagger has the worst stats of all dragon weapons currently. Its advantage is its special, wich when coupled with super or + poison, makes for a very powerful and useful weapon. A lot of people use it as a weapon to open a fight, speccing their opponent 4 times then switching to a different weapon.

 

 

 

The Longsword is your standard, all-round combat device. It has decent power, good stats and special. It's a weapon with balanced uses, good against most enemies.

 

 

 

The Scimitar is a weapon that doesn't quite have the longsword's balance. Its special is more PvP oriented (blocking of protect prayers), and while the increased accuracy of the spec is good against higher level monsters, the bar drain makes it more of a one-shot special. It hits harder than the longsword, though, and is faster.

 

 

 

The battleaxe is interesting. It's often carried as a pseudo-strength potion fo its spec, which increases the strength of the user for a certain amount of time. While a very useful combat weapon, the way I see it most used is as a stat booster weapon. After using the spec, the user normally switches to a different weapon.

 

 

 

Spear. One of the least used weapon class. Most spears I have seen are in Castle Wars, where the special is quite useful against EFCs. On a rare occasion I see people using them as stunning weapons in the tunnels, he trick being to immobilise your enemy in the loose wall area...and bring the ceiling down on his head. Few uses otherwise, and as I've said before, is generally outclassed by the...

 

 

 

Halberd. The warrior's safespot-tool. The dragon halberd's spec is VERY useful against large NPC's (which is what one would normally use a halberd for anyway). Strength, long range and more useful special make it outclass the spear in almost every way.

 

 

 

That's pretty much all I know about dragon weapons. Most of the information is first-hand, some of it comes from watching people use the weapons.

 

 

 

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Let's look at barrows items now. Assuming the full set effect is in place, unless stated.

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, Verac. Apparently good in staking circles since the set can ignore armor defence bonuses, and apparently hit through prayer. It's also the only melee armor that has no Mage defence penalty (+0 to mage defence for all pieces). The weapon also provides the largest single prayer bonus (+6).

 

 

 

Next, Dharok. The Mother of all weapons, this set makes hitting damage in the high 70s possible. Risk takers use this armor a lot, especially good for fast training. The axe isn't much good without the set effect, though.

 

 

 

Guthan. IMO the most useful special, this set is touted as "All the food you need in 4 spaces". If only. The set effect is random, and can activate when it's not needed, such as when you hit a 0. The weapon itself is like all spears, controlled or defensive, which again limits its training uses. Most people opt to wear the armor only, while using a different weapon to attack with. The spear is normally only used to heal when on low health.

 

 

 

Torag. A pair of warhammers almost never used. The set effect doesn't do much in the way of PvNPC combat, and the set is mostly used only for its armor, which when coupled with a good shield, apparently gives defence in the mid 300s.

 

 

 

Moving away from melee, Karil. The set effect has little use, apart from the nasty fellows who use it to trap people training at the wilderness agility arena (set effect drains agility). Armor is not widely used since it is harder to obtain than black D hide and requires repair, while only giving a few defence points bonus. Crossbow is a good weapon because it's stats don't degrade like th crystal bow's would. To train effectively with it, however, requires a premium in bolt racks. Often used for more specialised combat, such as Fight Caves.

 

 

 

----------------------

 

 

 

My God, that post is long. Read thouroughly or I WILL kill you...

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I completly agree, I think the choice of weapon is very limited because the choice of armor is also limited, everyone uses plate and kite, with the plate being strong against stab while weak against crush and the kite being strong against crush and weak against stab (thats at least what jagex is telling people) it balances out to being exually good against anything.

 

 

 

And having a look at the stronger f2p Npc's, Lessers, mossgiants, icegiants they all are more or less best fought with a scimmy. (I don't know if thats the same in p2p as well though)

 

 

 

I think there should be better variation in f2p armor, like chainmail should be made more atractive by for example having an increase of slash defence, so they could be used against scimmy's in the wilderniss. And perhaps a third kind of melee armor.

 

 

 

I have some others idea's about this problem in the back of my mind as well but I plan to think about them some more before I post them.

f2p skilltotal 1050+

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Discussing barrows equipment:

 

 

 

I was told that the great axe, even under 5 hp, is not as effective as a whip. If that's the case, the extraordinary risk of training below 5hp constantly would be pointless. I think the great axe is probably the most functional slow and powerful weapon in the game, even if the whip produces xp faster. The great axe certainly has uses for PvP applications due to it's awesome KO ability.

 

 

 

Karil's is dreadfully expensive according to my friend. He couldn't cover the cost of upkeep and ammunition training on any monster. The sets capabilities aren't anything to rave about when compared with the already available range weapons and armor.

 

 

 

Why does Jagex hate warhammers so much? Torags is no exception, because the dual warhammers are useless.

 

 

 

Barrows did succeed in getting the spear and flail into use, albeit for extremely specialized purposes. I think the concept of barrows was to address the issue I'm raising in this thread, but it was like a band-aid over a gaping wound. The current weapons need to be revisited, to bring some balance to them.

 

 

 

Dragon weapons:

 

 

 

It sounds like there may be some parity among the dragon weapons. How well do the longsword and scimitar stack up against each other? Is there a clearly superior weapon among the two?

 

 

 

I like the fact that the dragon dagger actually has some purpose. Unlike the rune dagger, which is suitable for spreading butter, or other noncombat activities. I wish there were more weapons which had niche roles like the dragon dagger.

 

 

 

Unfortunately the battle axe falls short in runescape, yet again. Special aside, shouldn't one of the most versatile and feared weapons of medieval times be represented better than this? The battle axes in game never cease to disappoint.

 

 

 

I have never heard much about the spear, but from what I gather, it's another paperweight.

 

 

 

The interesting thing about the halberd, is that in runescape it has no crush attack. If you read on what brought the halberd into being, it was actually designed to defeat the thicker, stronger platebodies of the time. A halberd has a devastating crushing attack when swung downward onto the shoulders and head of an armored opponent. The halberd should be unrivaled in killing opponents wearing plate armor, yet in runescape it is merely for hitting giants from behind rocks?

 

 

 

The dragon 2h sounds to be rather lackluster as well. I have difficulty imagining it being as bad as the rune two hand sword, because the r2h is abhorrently poor in performance. Wasn't the 2h something of mythical stature in Rsc? Why has it been turned into something so feeble?

 

 

 

Abyssal whip and maul:

 

 

 

I suppose that some sort of enchanted whip can explain the ability of this weapon. I don't see any problem with that explanation, but it seems that Jagex has gone way overboard with it. When one weapon is unequivocally superior to everything else, it makes the other weapons of the game a mute point really. This weapon needs to be toned down to allow some competition to exist between different classes of weapons.

 

 

 

I was really excited when the granite maul came out, even if it was p2p. Here, I thought, is the weapon that will finally put crush attacks on the map. For about a week it was a dominant force, especially in the wilderness. Then it was converted from the powerful, armor flattening implement, into a level 50s tool of mediocrity. This was very depressing, because once again, slashing weapons reigned supreme over plate armor

 

 

 

What about that other maul, the one that looks like a lamp post. Is it any good. It certainly didn't receive much fanfare at it's release.

 

 

 

Armor:

 

 

 

Jafnn is absolutely right here. A full set of rune with kite gives very consistantly high defense, and almost no advantage is served to use any specific attack against it. Compounding this problem, there isn't a decently capable weapon that uses an attack other than slash. As a result the wilderness is rather homogenous and bland in it's current state.

 

 

 

I think the defense bonus of the chain is reasonable when compared to the platebody. There just needs to be weapons which can capitalize on the weaknesses of certain armors. If there were a serious advantage to crushing attacks against plate armor, many players would opt to wear chainbody instead. This would really change the wilderness, bringing much more diversity to the fray.

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Hmm, I am as usefull as a F2P bloke with my opionion of Barrows, as I have nary but read about them and considered their stats myself, but I hope I can help a little.

 

 

 

I was told that the great axe, even under 5 hp, is not as effective as a whip. If that's the case, the extraordinary risk of training below 5hp constantly would be pointless. I think the great axe is probably the most functional slow and powerful weapon in the game, even if the whip produces xp faster. The great axe certainly has uses for PvP applications due to it's awesome KO ability.

 

 

 

Hmm, it really depends on your HP level. I've been training next to a bloke at the Greaters (or perhaps lessers) in the dungeon under Brimhaven. He was sitting on a sliver of health, with protect from Melee on. His combat would have been about mine. He could kill two of them in the time it took me to kill one (I was using a Dragon Long with full Rune). He was sustaining himself with Prayer Pots and protect from melee.

 

 

 

But yes, in a duel with 2h weapons and prayer, the Great Axe is unparalleled. Not something to play with in the wilderness, as walking around with protect from melee and 1hp is sure to get you slapped silly by a ranger with bronze arrows.

 

 

 

Karil's is dreadfully expensive according to my friend. He couldn't cover the cost of upkeep and ammunition training on any monster. The sets capabilities aren't anything to rave about when compared with the already available range weapons and armor.

 

 

 

Wouldn't surprise me. I'd prefer black d.hide and a funky yew/magic bow anyday. A LOT cheaper, especially if you're fletching your own ammo. But thats just from looking at the stats, and comparing to how well my green d.hide works (whee)

 

 

 

Why does Jagex hate warhammers so much? Torags is no exception, because the dual warhammers are useless.

 

 

 

I honestly have no idea. They were the big new thing in RS2, it was supposed to be THE anti-plate mail, ultimate pker weapon of doom. And yet... so... lame... Two of them? Double the power to crap out.

 

 

 

Barrows did succeed in getting the spear and flail into use, albeit for extremely specialized purposes. I think the concept of barrows was to address the issue I'm raising in this thread, but it was like a band-aid over a gaping wound. The current weapons need to be revisited, to bring some balance to them.

 

 

 

Open Wound? This is more like missing a limb. You're still alive, but you have a VERY limtied selection of activity.

 

 

 

Dragon weapons:

 

 

 

It sounds like there may be some parity among the dragon weapons. How well do the longsword and scimitar stack up against each other? Is there a clearly superior weapon among the two?

 

 

 

Well, considering the massive quest needed to weild the Dragon Scimitar, you would expect it to be better, but from what I hear, it's mostly as good as a long for PvNPC, and slightly better in PvP (for the prayer draining). Still very expensive to use in Pking though...

 

 

 

I like the fact that the dragon dagger actually has some purpose. Unlike the rune dagger, which is suitable for spreading butter, or other noncombat activities. I wish there were more weapons which had niche roles like the dragon dagger.

 

 

 

Even WITH poison, a dagger is useless unless it's a dragon dagger. I rate Dragon Daggers very highly.

 

 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing them held not like a sword, but upside down, like a proper dagger, and having a really fast attack speed. Would be perfect for a mage to carry to hit rangers with. If you yourself had a really good attack stat but a lower strength stat, you would be making consitantly damaging attacks, at high speed, but not at high strength.

 

 

 

Unfortunately the battle axe falls short in runescape, yet again. Special aside, shouldn't one of the most versatile and feared weapons of medieval times be represented better than this? The battle axes in game never cease to disappoint.

 

 

 

Can't fault you there. Any suggestions, as I'm drawing a blank.

 

 

 

I have never heard much about the spear, but from what I gather, it's another paperweight.

 

 

 

IIRC, it's advantage is that it can stab/crush/slash or whatever all on the same weapon, and is the only one to do that. But, the crush/stab/slash bonuses or hinderances don't make NEARLY enough of a difference.

 

 

 

A dagger should RIP through chainmail, whereas a warhammer should just clang off. Stuff like that.

 

 

 

The interesting thing about the halberd, is that in runescape it has no crush attack. If you read on what brought the halberd into being, it was actually designed to defeat the thicker, stronger platebodies of the time. A halberd has a devastating crushing attack when swung downward onto the shoulders and head of an armored opponent. The halberd should be unrivaled in killing opponents wearing plate armor, yet in runescape it is merely for hitting giants from behind rocks?

 

 

 

Yeah, I was dissapointed in that too. I think the SPEAR would be better suited in the Halberds role. Spears were used to attack in rank formation, like the Phalanx and whatnot. At least it has the bonus VS large monsters, which is what it should be good at.

 

 

 

The dragon 2h sounds to be rather lackluster as well. I have difficulty imagining it being as bad as the rune two hand sword, because the r2h is abhorrently poor in performance. Wasn't the 2h something of mythical stature in Rsc? Why has it been turned into something so feeble?

 

 

 

They pulled the knife too deep. It was the same argument with the Scimmy being the primary weapon now (it was too underpowered before compared to the longsword), and the Maul was too powerfull (apparently), so it was cut back, and cut back too much.

 

 

 

Its EASY to say that something is too powerfull, and bring it back down, but often it is brought too far down, and rather than balancing out, it dies completely. The only mauls I see these days are on people who like the look of them. Everywhere I see in P2P, it's dragon long/scimmy/dagger or whip. Whips EVERYWHERE.

 

 

 

I suppose that some sort of enchanted whip can explain the ability of this weapon. I don't see any problem with that explanation, but it seems that Jagex has gone way overboard with it. When one weapon is unequivocally superior to everything else, it makes the other weapons of the game a mute point really. This weapon needs to be toned down to allow some competition to exist between different classes of weapons.

 

 

 

I agree. I do find it amusing that you can get it rarely at lvl 85 slayer, and it is a massivly powerfull weapon. Originally, it was an enormous money spinner too.

 

 

 

Now, as you can't BUY slayer exp ("selling moss giant task ftw"), I would compare this to the early days of the R2H. Back then, R2H's were THE weapon to have for pking or just doing anything. This was back when rune anything not found in a store could cost upwards of 100k*.

 

 

 

So, once you reached smithing 99, the R2h was your goldmine. They originally sold for millions (remember this is PRE inflation when millions was worth a lot more than today). I got mine as a gift when it was around 800k... I remember selling it after RS2 came out (I stopped playing RSC about 6 months prior to RS2.. or perhaps longer, but I dunno) for a measly 52k or something. Post inflation :P.

 

 

 

So, the comparison between the R2H and the Whip is really scary. I wouldn't be surprised if one day everything shifted, and the whip became nothing more than a pretty weapon.

 

 

 

I was really excited when the granite maul came out, even if it was p2p. Here, I thought, is the weapon that will finally put crush attacks on the map. For about a week it was a dominant force, especially in the wilderness. Then it was converted from the powerful, armor flattening implement, into a level 50s tool of mediocrity. This was very depressing, because once again, slashing weapons reigned supreme over plate armor

 

 

 

Yes, and being 2-handed, it brought 2h weapons back into the fore. But no, now it's dead.

 

 

 

What about that other maul, the one that looks like a lamp post. Is it any good. It certainly didn't receive much fanfare at it's release.

 

 

 

To prove your point, I'm going to ask "what other maul"?

 

 

 

 

Jafnn is absolutely right here. A full set of rune with kite gives very consistantly high defense, and almost no advantage is served to use any specific attack against it. Compounding this problem, there isn't a decently capable weapon that uses an attack other than slash. As a result the wilderness is rather homogenous and bland in it's current state.

 

 

 

Yeah, which is why we need things to balance up again.

 

 

 

I think the defense bonus of the chain is reasonable when compared to the platebody. There just needs to be weapons which can capitalize on the weaknesses of certain armors. If there were a serious advantage to crushing attacks against plate armor, many players would opt to wear chainbody instead. This would really change the wilderness, bringing much more diversity to the fray.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree again. D.Hide would be REALLY susceptable to slashing/stabbing attacks. Chainmail would be REALLY susceptable to Stabbing attacks. Plate would be REALLY susceptable to crushing attacks, but stabbing would be nigh on useless.

 

 

 

Change that, and tweak the weapons, you're getting somewhere.

 

 

 

*I had the same amount of money back in the days of RSC as I do now. Problem is, these days 100k means nothing to me, and back then it meant I was a rich man :P

Raichase, quit Runescape.

 

Time issues really, nothing against the game itself. Something had to go, and it happened to be the addictive game that costs money to enjoy :)

 

Best of luck to all of my friends here!

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Raichase, you're wit had me chuckling heartily several times reading that last post :lol:

 

 

 

Dealing with the battle axe specifically (dragon and rune alike) here is what I think should be done. If the accuracy were improved, in both crush and slash attacks, I think this would go a long way to putting it back into the running. The crush attack in particular should be increased quite substantially. This would allow it to produce reasonable xp while training, and also give it the teeth it needs for pking well armored opponents. The key to the battle axe is it should be versatile, easily adapted to attacking plate, chain, or robes. Currently it is poor in all three of those roles.

 

 

 

The warhammer has a decent crush attack, but it's still not enough to match the speed of the scimitars slashing. I think the warhammer could use an improvement of crush attack, and a dash of strength bonus as well. This weapon should be highly effective against plate, in fact it should be the best rune weapon against platebody, because it is so limited in it's attack style. If you are sacrificing slash and stab attack entirely, you should be rewarded handsomely with devastating results on plate armor.

 

 

 

These are the only weapons I'm going to cover now, because I'm lazy.

 

 

 

Ultimately, the goal of these adjustments would be that you could take the battleaxe, scimitar, longsword, warhammer or 2h sword, and train with roughly the same xp per hour gained. That would be the litmus test of achieving proper balance.

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Raichase, you're wit had me chuckling heartily several times reading that last post :lol:

 

 

 

Oh shh, we both know I'm not funny :P. Just mildly amusing ;).

 

 

 

Ahh, glad I could bring humour to this very interesting issue :).

 

 

 

Dealing with the battle axe specifically (dragon and rune alike) here is what I think should be done. If the accuracy were improved, in both crush and slash attacks, I think this would go a long way to putting it back into the running. The crush attack in particular should be increased quite substantially. This would allow it to produce reasonable xp while training, and also give it the teeth it needs for pking well armored opponents. The key to the battle axe is it should be versatile, easily adapted to attacking plate, chain, or robes. Currently it is poor in all three of those roles.

 

 

 

Can't fault you here.

 

 

 

What would you do to attack speed, keep it the same?. I also wouldn't mind seeing it wielded like the Barbarians when it's not being used to belt someone :).

 

 

 

Your role change would also compliment the special of the dragon battle-axe, as it would mean increased power still, making it even more powerfull. Far better than getting increased power for a dragon dagger :P.

 

 

 

The warhammer has a decent crush attack, but it's still not enough to match the speed of the scimitars slashing. I think the warhammer could use an improvement of crush attack, and a dash of strength bonus as well. This weapon should be highly effective against plate, in fact it should be the best rune weapon against platebody, because it is so limited in it's attack style. If you are sacrificing slash and stab attack entirely, you should be rewarded handsomely with devastating results on plate armor.

 

 

 

Yes. A bloke with a warhammer should kick the stuffing out of a guy in platemail armour. Especially if they were both armed with the same armour otherwise (ie, both in full rune with kite. one with hammer, one with scimmy).

 

 

 

These are the only weapons I'm going to cover now, because I'm lazy.

 

 

 

It's probably easier to thrash them out 2 or 3 at a time, to really get into the depth of it. Better than trying to do all at once, and getting confused.

 

 

 

Ultimately, the goal of these adjustments would be that you could take the battleaxe, scimitar, longsword, warhammer or 2h sword, and train with roughly the same xp per hour gained. That would be the litmus test of achieving proper balance.

 

 

 

Depends on the opponant, of course. I wouldn't mind seeing people take warhammers to white knights to get the exp edge over the 2h or the battle, and staying away from the scimmy for such training. When dragon slaying, the B-axe would probably be preferred, as it allows use of a sheild. Or, they could opt for the scimmy for the faster attack speed. Likewise, the long and the two handed sword would be good to beating the snot out of things not in plate armour, but perhaps in chainmail.

 

 

 

But yes, assuming each weapon spends one hour smacking away at unarmed/unarmoured lvl 100 NPC's, the relative exp should be the same. Throw plate armour on that NPC, and suddenly you should see a change in exp, with the Scimmy/Dagger getting the least, and the Hammer getting the most, followed by the B-Axe and 2h.

Raichase, quit Runescape.

 

Time issues really, nothing against the game itself. Something had to go, and it happened to be the addictive game that costs money to enjoy :)

 

Best of luck to all of my friends here!

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I actually have to disagree somewhat with the idea of balancing all weapons. Why?

 

 

 

Because of their availability.

 

 

 

Think about it, the whip's only source is the Abyssal Demon, requiring 85 Slayer to kill. This mens only people who have 85 Slayer can put more of these whips into the economy. Thus, the whip is not as easy to obtain as, say, the Dragon Longsword. To compensate for this, the stats of the whip are VERY worth the time taken to get one. If it's just as effective to use a Dragon long, why bother getting a whip?

 

 

 

I have to say aye on the halberds, Lim. I always thought Halberds would be better as Crush/Slash weapons. I mean, the current construction of RS halberds makes them look incapable of stabbing anyway :?

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