Tip.It Forum System Status, 2006-08-10

Hey, did the forums just crash or something today on 2006-08-10 PDT :?:

I was browsing, trying to post, and then I got a PhpBB error saying something about theme troubles, and then found myself logged out completely. What's going on :?:

Even the most stable of programs can start having problems when you stick it on hardware that can't handle the load. The forum server just has issues with the user load at times and has to go clean itself up. :lol:

It's like the DB connection errors people see. Nothing terrible, just the server hiccuping under the load or an admin playing with things. Nothing you can really do about it without getting rid of a few thousand users or buying Tip.It a bigger server. :?

Or now that I see this at the bottom of the page, prod Albosky into removing some of the useless SQL queries. postcount :P

Page Generation Time: 2.14942 seconds, SQL queries : 23

Or now that I see this at the bottom of the page, prod Albosky into removing some of the useless SQL queries. postcount :P

 

 

 

Page Generation Time: 2.14942 seconds, SQL queries : 23

Already discussed and shot down. Maybe the fact that all the images for avatars being on the forum.tip.it server is a problem? Sure would give me less trouble if I could have hosted my image from where I wanted!

Already discussed and shot down. Maybe the fact that all the images for avatars being on the forum.tip.it server is a problem? Sure would give me less trouble if I could have hosted my image from where I wanted!

I know it's already been shot down by the community, but it's one of the many useless things that's makes SQL queries that we don't need. I just like prodding the admins about it. :P

Images being stored on the forum server is just a few more kb in bandwidth and another item sent from the webserver after it's run through all the PHP. The real problem is the PHP and SQL queries underneath it all that actually drives the forum software. If you look at the page generation time at the bottom of the page, it's telling you how long it took the server to run through the forum software before even spitting out an imageless page to you. On a good day, that should be well below .5s. :? For quick comparison, the phpBB3 beta on my webserver, with just me browser around, generates pages in .07 seconds. The tip.it server would be doing that too, but it's handling 100's of users at the same time, bogging it down, and sometimes causing errors.

It wouldn't be a problem if Tip.It had a beafier server, but that means more money that they probably don't have. Not being able to buy a bigger server means trying to speed up the software, which is why I was for the removal of post counts. It's one less thing to update when someone posts and one less thing to grab from the DB when a lot of people are viewing threads.

Just browsing around while replying to this I ran into this beauty of a time:

Page Generation Time: 83.55497 seconds, SQL queries : 13

They do their best to keep it running smoothly for everyone, even if we do see a few errors from time to time.

Already discussed and shot down. Maybe the fact that all the images for avatars being on the forum.tip.it server is a problem? Sure would give me less trouble if I could have hosted my image from where I wanted!

 

 

 

I know it's already been shot down by the community, but it's one of the many useless things that's makes SQL queries that we don't need. I just like prodding the admins about it. :P

 

 

 

Images being stored on the forum server is just a few more kb in bandwidth and another item sent from the webserver after it's run through all the PHP. The real problem is the PHP and SQL queries underneath it all that actually drives the forum software. If you look at the page generation time at the bottom of the page, it's telling you how long it took the server to run through the forum software before even spitting out an imageless page to you. On a good day, that should be well below .5s. :? For quick comparison, the phpBB3 beta on my webserver, with just me browser around, generates pages in .07 seconds. The tip.it server would be doing that too, but it's handling 100's of users at the same time, bogging it down, and sometimes causing errors.

 

 

 

It wouldn't be a problem if Tip.It had a beafier server, but that means more money that they probably don't have. Not being able to buy a bigger server means trying to speed up the software, which is why I was for the removal of post counts. It's one less thing to update when someone posts and one less thing to grab from the DB when a lot of people are viewing threads.

 

 

 

Just browsing around while replying to this I ran into this beauty of a time:

 

Page Generation Time: 83.55497 seconds, SQL queries : 13

 

 

 

They do their best to keep it running smoothly for everyone, even if we do see a few errors from time to time.

You may be thinking about SQL queries, but the whole server has to slow down for physical disk accesses, tons of which occur every minute to retrieve avatars, and therefore suck up the bandwidth that PhpBB could have been using to deliver pages. There would be far, far less of these such that PhpBB could run far, far faster, if Tip.It Forums was not hosting our avatars for us. The server is, at this point, actually having to queue pages to send to people due to the image send-out loads.

My browser won't even render the page until it has everything, so I have to wait a lot of extra time before I will see anything. If it could go to 20 websites to get its' stuff instead of having to pound the crud out of one, I would see my pages way beyond far faster, and Tip.It Forums would be taking a lot less of a pounding. Duplicate this effect over 100k+ users, and you start seeing what I am seeing.

I took the time out to see the full picture before posting. Maybe now, you see it also.

~Mr. D. V. Devnull :boohoo:

(Btw, I will use the violin rarely... watch out.)

You may be thinking about SQL queries, but the whole server has to slow down for physical disk accesses, tons of which occur every minute to retrieve avatars, and therefore suck up the bandwidth that PhpBB could have been using to deliver pages. There would be far, far less of these such that PhpBB could run far, far faster, if Tip.It Forums was not hosting our avatars for us. The server is, at this point, actually having to queue pages to send to people due to the image send-out loads.

Avartars would add up to around 674mb (according to google) if every user registered as of this post used their full 6kb limit for an avatar. This isn't the case either way you look at it. You personally have a 4.3kb avatar. I don't have one at all, along with many other people. These images are all stored seperatly and are just a quick check through the file system to find and send. Images and static pages are simple for even a 200mhz webserver running apache to serve to thousands of hits. It involves a simple "I need this file", a disc read and it's sent. There is no processing of the image needed. It's just read and sent as is.

The underlying forum software, being written in PHP, is translated on every hit that is made to it. Apache gets the hit, has to run through the code, execute any database queries needed (to a database that's "well over a gigbyte", see here), create usable information for us to read, translate any bbcode, urls, ect. , create the html page you receive and then send it all. It takes a lot more work to read a 1GB+ database than reading 15 tiny images (90KB if all 15 posts per page have 6kb images) and sending them. The images arn't even loaded untill after your browser receives the html. It needs the html page to request the correct images, leaving the debug time at the bottom of pages for PHP generating the page, not images. It doesn't take 30 seconds to send 90kB when you're paying for a dual xeon box.

If images were such a problem for the server, tip.it wouldn't be hosting them on the box. Simple as that. In the post count debate, Albosky pointed out SQL queries were a great reason to get rid of them. If you read through the thread again you'll find them. He also posts here and here that the number of DB queries from a cash mod addition would "lag the hell out of a forum database that is well over a gigabyte...".

Images are a fraction of the total disc reads the server will be making.

My browser won't even render the page until it has everything, so I have to wait a lot of extra time before I will see anything. If it could go to 20 websites to get its' stuff instead of having to pound the crud out of one, I would see my pages way beyond far faster, and Tip.It Forums would be taking a lot less of a pounding. Duplicate this effect over 100k+ users, and you start seeing what I am seeing.

You need to check your browser settings then, because even default IE renders HTML before the images have loaded. Changing the image load to 20 different image hosts won't change the fact your browser will still be waiting for those images from those 20 differnt hosts. If one of those hosts dies, no more avatars from there, and you wait even longer for the connection to time out before your page renders.

I took the time out to see the full picture before posting. Maybe now, you see it also.

 

 

 

~Mr. D. V. Devnull :boohoo:

 

 

 

(Btw, I will use the violin rarely... watch out.)

The "full picture" involves more than just the images you bring up. You forgot inbound and outbound bandwidth, CPU time for the PHP and DB query processing, total users requesting things adding load to the CPU, server settings and many other things. So, even you don't see the whole picture. I bring up PHP and SQL queries because they are what's taking up the majority of the processing power that's slowing the server, not petty little 6kb images.

And why should I "watch out" for a boohoo smily? Are you going to send it to my house to break my legs because I didn't agree with you?

Double post, 3 minutes apart. Proves that whole server lag sucks thing. :P

Same thing happened with me.....

On the subject of forum status it seems I'm getting the could not connect to the DB error regularly each night at times between 22:30 and 00:00 GMT+1. I was told this was due to updates but every night?

Hehe, not really sure what you want us to say? "sorry"? "We're working on it?"

All i can tell you is that we do our very best, and once we get the money for it, the server(s) will be updated...

Hehe, not really sure what you want us to say? "sorry"? "We're working on it?"

 

 

 

All i can tell you is that we do our very best, and once we get the money for it, the server(s) will be updated...

As Jeppe has said, theres really not alot they can do at the moment, the staff is trying.

Perhaps someone should open a topic in regards to thoughts, suggestions and ideas to either reduce server load, or to raise cash?

I know that the idea of removing the post count was shot down, but I imagine a debate on whether or not to remove the "view count" would be a idea. Seeing as the view count is updated every single time a topic is loaded, whereas post count is only updated upon posting or actual deletion of topics, I would have to imagine the view count is putting more stress on the servers than the post count is?

I know that the idea of removing the post count was shot down, but I imagine a debate on whether or not to remove the "view count" would be a idea. Seeing as the view count is updated every single time a topic is loaded, whereas post count is only updated upon posting or actual deletion of topics, I would have to imagine the view count is putting more stress on the servers than the post count is?

Killing the view count would be a nice idea. Shall we expand on this? I don't know of anyone that uses it, and DragnFly is right, it would kill a lot of server load to remove this bugger.

~Mr. D. V. Devnull

I wonder if there's any page caching mods for phpbb2 :-?

We can always just wait around until phpbb3, which I'm guessing (although I don't know) will be faster :)

I know that the idea of removing the post count was shot down, but I imagine a debate on whether or not to remove the "view count" would be a idea. Seeing as the view count is updated every single time a topic is loaded, whereas post count is only updated upon posting or actual deletion of topics, I would have to imagine the view count is putting more stress on the servers than the post count is?

 

 

 

Killing the view count would be a nice idea. Shall we expand on this? I don't know of anyone that uses it, and DragnFly is right, it would kill a lot of server load to remove this bugger.

 

 

 

~Mr. D. V. Devnull

A hair off-topic...

(Albosky :3>)

Last time I checked, Albosky and KS_Jeppe are both male... Please excuse me while I take this the wrong way. :ohnoes: :uhh: :-X :anxious: :wall: :? :( :oops:

A hair off-topic...

 

 

 

(Albosky :3>)

 

 

 

Last time I checked, Albosky and KS_Jeppe are both male... Please excuse me while I take this the wrong way. :ohnoes: :uhh: :-X :anxious: :wall: :? :( :oops:

Last time Jeppe checked she was female.

Last time i checked i was female as well :shock:

God I hope Jeppe is really female , as all those times I was hitting on her on MSN would be for not ...

oh wait , nvm , I'll shut up now ...

To answer the question , no the forum nor the server crashed , There are often times I make small changes to the forum (updates if you want to call it that) that require to only login to "load" them, so i dump the sessions table in the database to force a login , which is what occured there.

To answer any other questions , yes a query cache system HAS been implemented into phpbb by myself to reduce loading of the same information that never changes from the database over and over again. Unfortunately , we are having a slight problem with the forum server lately in regards to lag and its being worked on as quickly as possible .

God I hope Jeppe is really female , as all those times I was hitting on her on MSN would be for not ...

 

 

 

oh wait , nvm , I'll shut up now ...

LOL, okay, at least that makes since. Stupid me, assuming KS_Jeppe was male. #-o

To answer the question , no the forum nor the server crashed , There are often times I make small changes to the forum (updates if you want to call it that) that require to only login to "load" them, so i dump the sessions table in the database to force a login , which is what occured there.

 

 

 

To answer any other questions , yes a query cache system HAS been implemented into phpbb by myself to reduce loading of the same information that never changes from the database over and over again. Unfortunately , we are having a slight problem with the forum server lately in regards to lag and its being worked on as quickly as possible .

Ah, so that's what's going on! I'll stand by, keep browsing, and hope you manage to get it fixed. :D Have fun and enjoy repairing it! Remember, the struggle to fix a problem like this is only a bit much if you can't have fun at the same time! :D

~Mr. D. V. Devnull

8-)