The Challenge -- Edit added to original post.

Over recent times, I have encountered a select few of you who believe in a young earth (i.e. that the earth is somewhere in the order of 6000 years old) and that evolution is total garbage. It disturbs me because it seems these are the only scientific theories which fundamentalists (for the most part) don't agree with. Why? Well obviously it's because they think that these claims refute the account of genesis entirely.

I have an interest in science and the truths that it can uncover in the world today to make us a more knowlegable race and this is basically the motivation for the challenge I am about to propose.

This is a direct extract of mine from another topic:

It's been proven time and time again that the earth is not 6000 years old. In fact, here's a challenge for you. Find me a source which has no religous connotations whatsoever that claims the earth is 6000 years old and the techniques used to come to such a conclusion. Just don't rack your brains on it because I can assure you the overwhelming majority of all sources you find (if not all) will have a religous motivation and only seek to critique valid science because they have no basis for thier own claims.

This challenge stands for anyone.

As a disclaimer I must make clear that I have nothing against any organised religion or the morality and stories they teach. The only thing I dislike about some religions are the overhwlming minority of fanaticals or fundamentalists whose opinions on thier chosen scripture go againt solid, honest science. Edit: This is not an attempt to 'convert' you or change your opinion or chosen belief in religion x in any way shape or form; this is scientifically motivated. People who accept the challenge should be those that believe that real, unbiased scientists have evidence and reasoning for earth being 6000 or so years old and evolution being fabricated nonsense.

Rules for the challenge:

1) No useless, off topic flames; this is not a debate about the existance of a god/s.

2) If any site you provide in response to the challenge has any religous connotation or motivation, it does not qualify.

3) Any complaints about this topic aren't welcome here, this is not a complaint forum.

4) Any source which is not clear on the qualifications of the author or references will be questioned.

As a conclusion for this post, the intention of this topic is to show those that may be fundamentalists (if they want to listen and contribute sensibly) that, if my presumptions are correct, no qualified scientists would certify that evolution is wrong and the earth is around 6000 years old and have credible evidence to back it up. It is also to show that the ultimate consensus in the scientific community is that evolution is sound and logical as are the techniques which claim that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old.

William James, arguably. Scince truth is relative (according to James), and so long as an idea functions usefuly for someone it may be held to be "true", even if it conflicts with the "truth" of another, then seeing as for these "select few" the idea functions usefuly for them, it may be held to be true. But of course, seeing as it does not function usefuly for you, it may be held to be "untrue", whilst still being "true" for those others. Thus this concept suggests that it is both true and untrue at the same time. A good example is that of the "flat earth". When it was believed that the earth was flat, and that this was a useful concept, then it was indeed true that the earth was flat. Now it is not a usefuly functioning conceptual object to most people, thus it is now untrue.

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

That's not the callenge as the overwhelming majority of the scientific community knows evolution to be true. Science is not a belief. You can give it a shot or just not post at all, why even post if you have nothing on topic to contribute?

@ FuBai, yes, I know you have an interest in the philosophy of science, that is not what this topic is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ FuBai, yes, I know you have an interest in the philosophy of science, that is not what this topic is about.

Ironicaly if it was accepted by a religious person it would instantly lay waste thier thier belief in "ultimate truth" - seeing as thier "ultimate truth" would in fact be purley subjective according to the values they had just ascribed to.

 

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not the callenge as the overwhelming majority of the scientific community knows evolution to be true. Science is not a belief. You can give it a shot or just not post at all, why even post if you have nothing on topic to contribute?

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ FuBai, yes, I know you have an interest in the philosophy of science, that is not what this topic is about.

Because I was flaming you. And it was on topic. And you haven't gotten over the fact that nobody cares that you have a certain belief or understanding on this topic and are trying to convert everyone, who simply don't want to be.

Learn to agree to disagree. :roll:

No one on this board could prove anything. We would all just be quoting different scientific journals...not proving anything. This is a useless topic. Leave "proving" things up to real physicists out there, not 14 year olds on a message board.

No one on this board could prove anything. We would all just be quoting different scientific journals...not proving anything. This is a useless topic. Leave "proving" things up to real physicists out there, not 14 year olds on a message board.

Yeah leave it to the 15 year olds amirite?

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

I'm just wondering, with a totally natural approach, how did you get an education or are you homeschooled? It is impossible to get an education without studying at least a bit of biology, and even in a local christian school where I live they teach evolution as a part of the curriculum.

Evolution is not an argument against religion. Evolution happens in everything in the nature as a normal biological process, just like you evolve from a child to an adult. That's short term natural evolution, then there's long term evolution.

Why do some people think "I'm christian/muslim/mormon/chocolate lightsaber, therefore I must refute certain biological facts such as evolution?

 

 

 

[...]

 

 

 

Why do some people think "I'm christian/muslim/mormon/chocolate lightsaber, therefore I must refute certain biological facts such as evolution?

Hey! Where can I become one of those?

 

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering, with a totally natural approach, how did you get an education or are you homeschooled? It is impossible to get an education without studying at least a bit of biology, and even in a local christian school where I live they teach evolution as a part of the curriculum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution is not an argument against religion. Evolution happens in everything in the nature as a normal biological process, just like you evolve from a child to an adult. That's short term natural evolution, then there's long term evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do some people think "I'm christian/muslim/mormon/chocolate lightsaber, therefore I must refute certain biological facts such as evolution?

Speak for yourself. :roll: I didn't say anything about your last sentence. Reread what I said, I told him to get over the fact that others disagree with him. I'm no trying to prove or disprove anything here at the moment.

You can, as well, get over it too. No, seriously, get over it! Move on, deal with it! Nobody CARES WHAT YOU THINK! Seriously. Nobody cares.

 

 

 

You can, as well, get over it too. No, seriously, get over it! Move on, deal with it! Nobody CARES WHAT YOU THINK! Seriously. Nobody cares.

Great, then don't take part in debates about the Bible, Evolution, or anything at all. Nobody's forcing you :) I do care about what other people think when they have facts against my nothing, which HAS happened in the past.

You may have an attitude problem, nobody would use these forums if nobody cared what anybody has to say. Why do you use the forums then?

A discussion isn't talking with yourself. So why are you here?

 

 

 

 

You can, as well, get over it too. No, seriously, get over it! Move on, deal with it! Nobody CARES WHAT YOU THINK! Seriously. Nobody cares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great, then don't take part in debates about the Bible, Evolution, or anything at all. Nobody's forcing you :) I do care about what other people think when they have facts against my nothing, which HAS happened in the past.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You may have an attitude problem, nobody would use these forums if nobody cared what anybody has to say. Why do you use the forums then?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A discussion isn't talking with yourself. So why are you here?

If someone can't get over the fact that someone has a differing opinion, and keeps on trying to force their opinion on someone else, than really nobody cares after a while. I do however care about other people's opinions as long as they don't keep on carrying on about the same thing, trying to force a point which everyone has heard from (i.e. you and warri0r). You need to learn to agree to disagree.

I like discussions and debates, I don't like people continuing on about them just for there own self-gratification (because thats what it seems like).

And no I don't have an attitude problem. :) :wink:

 

 

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering, with a totally natural approach, how did you get an education or are you homeschooled? It is impossible to get an education without studying at least a bit of biology, and even in a local christian school where I live they teach evolution as a part of the curriculum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution is not an argument against religion. Evolution happens in everything in the nature as a normal biological process, just like you evolve from a child to an adult. That's short term natural evolution, then there's long term evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do some people think "I'm christian/muslim/mormon/chocolate lightsaber, therefore I must refute certain biological facts such as evolution?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speak for yourself. :roll: I didn't say anything about your last sentence. Reread what I said, I told him to get over the fact that others disagree with him. I'm no trying to prove or disprove anything here at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can, as well, get over it too. No, seriously, get over it! Move on, deal with it! Nobody CARES WHAT YOU THINK! Seriously. Nobody cares.

Eels, I couldn't care less if no one believes what I do. All I'm trying to do is weed out the so called 'science' which creationists seem to think justifies them claiming the world is 6000 years old and evolution is total garbage. They use propoganda to keep people docile, no joke. But hey, you may think a different way and think they speak of absolute truth. Biology and geology aren't beliefs. Science is not a belief and so far I am yet to see anyone submit a qualified entrant. The bold and harsh truth is that, unless you can prove otherwise, the only people who claim of a young earth and fallacies in evolution are religously motivated. That's no opinion, that's a going trend on all creationist sources which I have ever viewed in my life.

As I anticipate a philosophical flame fest from people such as Locke, I must remid you that's not what this topic is about.

 

 

 

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering, with a totally natural approach, how did you get an education or are you homeschooled? It is impossible to get an education without studying at least a bit of biology, and even in a local christian school where I live they teach evolution as a part of the curriculum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution is not an argument against religion. Evolution happens in everything in the nature as a normal biological process, just like you evolve from a child to an adult. That's short term natural evolution, then there's long term evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do some people think "I'm christian/muslim/mormon/chocolate lightsaber, therefore I must refute certain biological facts such as evolution?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speak for yourself. :roll: I didn't say anything about your last sentence. Reread what I said, I told him to get over the fact that others disagree with him. I'm no trying to prove or disprove anything here at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can, as well, get over it too. No, seriously, get over it! Move on, deal with it! Nobody CARES WHAT YOU THINK! Seriously. Nobody cares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eels, I couldn't care less if no one believes what I do. All I'm trying to do is weed out the so called 'science' which creationists seem to think justifies them claiming the world is 6000 years old and evolution is total garbage. They use propoganda to keep people docile, no joke. But hey, you may think a different way and think they speak of absolute truth. Biology and geology aren't beliefs. Science is not a belief and so far I am yet to see anyone submit a qualified entrant. The bold and harsh truth is that, unless you can prove otherwise, that the only people who claim of a young earth and fallacies in evolution are religously motivated. That's no opinion, that's a going trend on all creationist sources which I have ever viewed in my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I anticipate a philosophical flame fest from people such as Locke, I must remid you that's not what this topic is about.

For starters I haven't once on this topic, told anyone my own personal belief or tried to convert any people. :wink: IF you would like to weed out the "science" behind a creationist beliefs that why not Google it. :wink:

Here's a couple of links I found first page of a Google search:

Link 1

Link 2

Look around, read it, I'm sure you'll be able to find you're information. :) :wink:

 

 

 

 

I challenge you to fully prove evolution. Seriously get over it, just because others don't share the same belief as you. You can try all you'll like, but you're just going around in circles. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering, with a totally natural approach, how did you get an education or are you homeschooled? It is impossible to get an education without studying at least a bit of biology, and even in a local christian school where I live they teach evolution as a part of the curriculum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution is not an argument against religion. Evolution happens in everything in the nature as a normal biological process, just like you evolve from a child to an adult. That's short term natural evolution, then there's long term evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do some people think "I'm christian/muslim/mormon/chocolate lightsaber, therefore I must refute certain biological facts such as evolution?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speak for yourself. :roll: I didn't say anything about your last sentence. Reread what I said, I told him to get over the fact that others disagree with him. I'm no trying to prove or disprove anything here at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can, as well, get over it too. No, seriously, get over it! Move on, deal with it! Nobody CARES WHAT YOU THINK! Seriously. Nobody cares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eels, I couldn't care less if no one believes what I do. All I'm trying to do is weed out the so called 'science' which creationists seem to think justifies them claiming the world is 6000 years old and evolution is total garbage. They use propoganda to keep people docile, no joke. But hey, you may think a different way and think they speak of absolute truth. Biology and geology aren't beliefs. Science is not a belief and so far I am yet to see anyone submit a qualified entrant. The bold and harsh truth is that, unless you can prove otherwise, that the only people who claim of a young earth and fallacies in evolution are religously motivated. That's no opinion, that's a going trend on all creationist sources which I have ever viewed in my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I anticipate a philosophical flame fest from people such as Locke, I must remid you that's not what this topic is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For starters I haven't once on this topic, told anyone my own personal belief or tried to convert any people. :wink: IF you would like to weed out the "science" behind a creationist beliefs that why not Google it. :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a couple of links I found first page of a Google search:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link 1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link 2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look around, read it, I'm sure you'll be able to find you're information. :) :wink:

Creationism.org and Creation Fellowship, hmm. I'd have to say they do not qualify due to the fact that they are... what do you think I'm gonna say? Religously motivated, impartial, biased. Wouldn't you agree? Sorry if it sounds like I'm brushing you off here Eels, but I have seen a myriad of sources like this before, each with scientific explinations for the 'science' they use. These are nothing special, sorry.

 

 

 

If someone can't get over the fact that someone has a differing opinion, and keeps on trying to force their opinion on someone else, than really nobody cares after a while.

As said, biology, geology, etc. are not opinions. That's basic stuff you learn in the fifth grade. If you disagree with it, you either don't care about being educated, or are being brainwashed by your parents or a church.

I don't care if there's a God or not. Maybe there is. I just care about informing people who clearly don't know what they're talking about.

I also read your links, the authority for the claims comes mainly from these statements I found:

Scripture teaches that God created animals

It is important to God as is evidenced by His declaration of who He is: the Creator God.

God has revealed himself to man in Scripture, which makes it necessary for men to know, understand and obey the Word of God

That's not objective science, that's a religiously motivated attempt at converting people.

When I look at .edu or .gov sites that explain how evolution occurs in the nature, they don't try to convert anybody or make people "obey" anything. They just write the results of the experiments they finished.

Especially look at the second quote. God is evidenced to be God, because he himself supposedly said he is God. And that was written by a human. Way to make a logical fallacy. Something doesn't exist just "because". That's not evidence.

"It's said God said he is God, therefore that's evidence". That's not evidence.

Thanks for going into more detail there Bluelancer. To be honest, I wasn't going to go past the fact that the titles are creationism.org and creation fellowship but thanks nonetheless. I feel I need to apologise for this but, I will actually read through any other entrants.

The proper term for Creationism is "Psuedo-Science", by the way. ;)

And of course, the proper term for Evolution, is "Science."

The proper term for Creationism is "Psuedo-Science", by the way. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And of course, the proper term for Evolution, is "Science."

The proper term for science could be Pseudo-Creationism to some.

Science is, unlike someone said, a belief. If you believe in science, you believe your empirical senses are infallible. If you see something go one way a million times, it cannot go the other way the next? Statistics lie, experiments in the physical world has a million possible outcomes. If you call it truth, it's because you believe in your senses.

I believe in my senses, it's my belief that science tells me the truth. If some people don't want to believe in science, it's like telling me they don't believe in their senses. Nothing else. So I let them say that, more often than not I do not tell them of their non-belief in their senses, but their non-enlightenment is as bas as that of the scientist who does not consider his belief to be just that, a belief.

I'm just trying to say that this thread isn't gonna prove anything, kinda meta-discussing it :P

For people who believe in science it quite obviously does nothing but maybe reinforce their beliefs, which I don't really think is necessary. And the way to disprove someone who does not believe in their senses is not by using your senses.

Wow, what a rant :)

 

The proper term for Creationism is "Psuedo-Science", by the way. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And of course, the proper term for Evolution, is "Science."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The proper term for science could be Pseudo-Creationism to some.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Science is, unlike someone said, a belief. If you believe in science, you believe your empirical senses are infallible. If you see something go one way a million times, it cannot go the other way the next? Statistics lie, experiments in the physical world has a million possible outcomes. If you call it truth, it's because you believe in your senses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in my senses, it's my belief that science tells me the truth. If some people don't want to believe in science, it's like telling me they don't believe in their senses. Nothing else. So I let them say that, more often than not I do not tell them of their non-belief in their senses, but their non-enlightenment is as bas as that of the scientist who does not consider his belief to be just that, a belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just trying to say that this thread isn't gonna prove anything, kinda meta-discussing it :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For people who believe in science it quite obviously does nothing but maybe reinforce their beliefs, which I don't really think is necessary. And the way to disprove someone who does not believe in their senses is not by using your senses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, what a rant :)

Point taken, but theories are designed to be falliable. Science is designed to correct itself and move on. It's, if you believe I suppose, foolproof. Our senses are basically all we have to analyse the natural world and seeing as everyone has them, everyone can see the inner workings of science (in theory). Of course you can break it down to a philosophical level and pick science apart as not being the ultimate truth about everything but that isn't the purpose here. Science is the closest thing we have to an objective device used to uncover truth (if you believe that i suppose).

Again, this topic is not about philosophy. Point taken though. :wink:

Yea, I'm abit sorry about making that post, that's why I added the "Wow, what a rant" after.

Good luck with this thread.

Yea, I'm abit sorry about making that post, that's why I added the "Wow, what a rant" after.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck with this thread.

No worries and thanks. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just trying to say that this thread isn't gonna prove anything, kinda meta-discussing it :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

+1.

The internet won't help to prove that creationism is true. Anybody who would make a website to prove it true would be a devout christian, and would no doubt use at least 1 bible reference. So, what you're saying is paradoxical, and can never be done. It's like making a chicken hatch from an egg with no yolk. It can't be done.

Also, if you're going to whine about flamers, don't do it on a thread about "creationism vs. evolution." It's 110% sure to be flamed.

The Story of Creating is just that, a story. It is not meant to be scientifically accurate. So there is no reason why any Catholic should have any disagreement with that. The Catholic faith has accepted the theory of Evolution.