The Challenge -- Edit added to original post.

[baron8000]

Right a few things to comment on and ask about but I cant remember how to do multiple quotes :oops: .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bluelancer: This microevolution is this similar to Darwin's Finches? If so i think I understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eels: Very few take the bible literally and exactly word for word anymore - it is after all an archaic and ancient text - (except for those pesky evangelists eh :P ) - my view is a lot more metaphorical - it does not mean (to me at least) we were created in his physical image, but rather given his qualities of love, care, pity and a multitude of others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I may of course be wrong, there are hundreds of interpretations of the Bible and I am no means an expert.

[warri0r45]

Right a few things to comment on and ask about but I cant remember how to do multiple quotes :oops: .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bluelancer: This microevolution is this similar to Darwin's Finches? If so i think I understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eels: Very few take the bible literally and exactly word for word anymore - it is after all an archaic and ancient text - (except for those pesky evangelists eh :P ) - my view is a lot more metaphorical - it does not mean (to me at least) we were created in his physical image, but rather given his qualities of love, care, pity and a multitude of others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I may of course be wrong, there are hundreds of interpretations of the Bible and I am no means an expert.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can help you on the first one there, Baron. Yes, from memory, if the finches didn't become different species or anything that drastic, (although I think they would have become different species now I think of it) it would be an example of simple natural selection and microevolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Basically, microevolution involves small changes that don't cause the organism to change so much that it is considered a different species, while macro evolution is evolution that does eventually caused speciation or divergance of an organism into one or more different species.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure BlueLancer can help you out too. :)

[FuBai]

I liked it when the Tip.It God wars were called off over christmas...Shame the amnesty of belief seems to have ended.

[baron8000]

Yes as i remember it the Darwin Finch has a great amount of variation within its species: beak size, wing span etc and as the conditions in which they live change (being isolated on a small island) the mix can change vastly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One year small beak/small wing may be abundant, but within less than a decade almost unseen. Then becoming more common in later years.

[dave0293]

what no lucy? :-k

 

 

 

interesting topic

[warri0r45]

what no lucy? :-k

 

 

 

interesting topic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You mean that 3 million year old or so hominid? Interesting stuff, but not quite what this topic was desiged for.

[warri0r45]

This topic isn't meeting the expectations I had, which comes as a bit of a suprise to be honest seeing as I have met a few fundamentalists (or what I suspect to be) on these boards. If you want to show us that your beliefs have integrity, the challenge still stands, if you want to take it. Of course some people won't like me for having made this topic, but the challenege is designed so you can prove me wrong, which I invite you to do. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. :uhh: :-#

[baron8000]

The fundamentalists have an amazing ability to ignore that which doesn't fit into their world view my friend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I like a non-religious person putting forward their view without forcing it as some do so free bump I suppose :)

[fakeitormakeit]

Well I believe myself that The Bible can be correct in some matters BUT I do believe in an older earth(you know, the one that is billons of years old?). I also believe that creationism and evolution could both be correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.- People who try to force an opinion down someone's throat aren't religous, they are just crazy.

[warri0r45]

Well I believe myself that The Bible can be correct in some matters BUT I do believe in an older earth(you know, the one that is billons of years old?). I also believe that creationism and evolution could both be correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.- People who try to force an opinion down someone's throat aren't religous, they are just crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just out of concern, would you say I'm forcing opinions down others throats? Or were you refering to someone else/some other people?

[Flametrooper]

 

 

 

So therefore if he's a Christian (than he obviously believes in Jesus). So if he believes that Jesus came from heavan to die on the cross for us to forgive us for our sins, then therefore he died on the cross also for the monkeys which we evolved from? Or did he die on the cross for the one celled organisms which we originated from? :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Slightly_OT,_but_I_always_sort_of_did_wonder_about_this._

 

 

 

Why_should_God_favor_us_humans_over_any_of_his_other_creations-that_didn't_ever_sin,unlike_us-

 

 

 

Is_it_just_because_humans_were_made_in_Gods_own_image?_Does_this_mean_physically?_Because_I_thought_God_wasn't_physical.

 

 

 

If_it_means_humans_were_given_Gods_attributes_of_kindness,_pity,_love_caring_etc,

 

 

 

then_why_would_the_animals_not_be_given_these_too?_The_only_reason_I_can_think_of_for_a_god_to_favor_one_species_of_creation_is_that_that_species_made_him_up.

 

 

 

Gah,_my_dang_space_bar_is_broken._I'll_post_more_later_when_its_easier_to_type_stuff_out.

[crimsonking]

Its about time someone actually asked creationists for evidence, I was getting fairly sick of them nitpicking evolution yet never giving any evidence of their own belief.

[baron8000]

 

Well I believe myself that The Bible can be correct in some matters BUT I do believe in an older earth(you know, the one that is billons of years old?). I also believe that creationism and evolution could both be correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.- People who try to force an opinion down someone's throat aren't religous, they are just crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just out of concern, would you say I'm forcing opinions down others throats? Or were you refering to someone else/some other people?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty certain he's referring to the fundamentalists with very little understanding of the religion they preach - from my religious point of view you are most definitely not trying to rubbish faith or force opinions, which is why I continue to post on this topic :).

[warri0r45]

 

 

Well I believe myself that The Bible can be correct in some matters BUT I do believe in an older earth(you know, the one that is billons of years old?). I also believe that creationism and evolution could both be correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.- People who try to force an opinion down someone's throat aren't religous, they are just crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just out of concern, would you say I'm forcing opinions down others throats? Or were you refering to someone else/some other people?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty certain he's referring to the fundamentalists with very little understanding of the religion they preach - from my religious point of view you are most definitely not trying to rubbish faith or force opinions, which is why I continue to post on this topic :).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the reassurance. I almost thought you were referring to me. :oops: #-o :P

[honeo]

I think that people that believe the earth is only 6,000 years old are getting confused with the Religious aspect of everything. The Bible claims that God put two human beings on earth and they prospered and grew. This could have happened over 6,000 years. So the non-religious people hear this theory, and don't even consider God what-so-ever and try to prove God's words in the context of science. Religion and science are two totally different things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The amount of proof for the earth being millions, even billions of years old outweighs the amount of proof there is for the earth being 6,000 or so years old. Yes I know this is all we have been taught in schools, but look at the facts. We have Carbon Dating which tells how old the matter is. (Carbon-14) And what about Darwin's Theory of evolution?

[killersushipunk]

 

 

 

 

So therefore if he's a Christian (than he obviously believes in Jesus). So if he believes that Jesus came from heavan to die on the cross for us to forgive us for our sins, then therefore he died on the cross also for the monkeys which we evolved from? Or did he die on the cross for the one celled organisms which we originated from? :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Slightly_OT,_but_I_always_sort_of_did_wonder_about_this._

 

 

 

Why_should_God_favor_us_humans_over_any_of_his_other_creations-that_didn't_ever_sin,unlike_us-

 

 

 

Is_it_just_because_humans_were_made_in_Gods_own_image?_Does_this_mean_physically?_Because_I_thought_God_wasn't_physical.

 

 

 

If_it_means_humans_were_given_Gods_attributes_of_kindness,_pity,_love_caring_etc,

 

 

 

then_why_would_the_animals_not_be_given_these_too?_The_only_reason_I_can_think_of_for_a_god_to_favor_one_species_of_creation_is_that_that_species_made_him_up.

 

 

 

Gah,_my_dang_space_bar_is_broken._I'll_post_more_later_when_its_easier_to_type_stuff_out.

 

 

 

Don't_post_if_you_can't_post, tardhat.

[Rebdragon]

 

 

 

 

 

So therefore if he's a Christian (than he obviously believes in Jesus). So if he believes that Jesus came from heavan to die on the cross for us to forgive us for our sins, then therefore he died on the cross also for the monkeys which we evolved from? Or did he die on the cross for the one celled organisms which we originated from? :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Slightly_OT,_but_I_always_sort_of_did_wonder_about_this._

 

 

 

Why_should_God_favor_us_humans_over_any_of_his_other_creations-that_didn't_ever_sin,unlike_us-

 

 

 

Is_it_just_because_humans_were_made_in_Gods_own_image?_Does_this_mean_physically?_Because_I_thought_God_wasn't_physical.

 

 

 

If_it_means_humans_were_given_Gods_attributes_of_kindness,_pity,_love_caring_etc,

 

 

 

then_why_would_the_animals_not_be_given_these_too?_The_only_reason_I_can_think_of_for_a_god_to_favor_one_species_of_creation_is_that_that_species_made_him_up.

 

 

 

Gah,_my_dang_space_bar_is_broken._I'll_post_more_later_when_its_easier_to_type_stuff_out.

 

 

 

Don't_post_if_you_can't_post, tardhat.

 

 

 

He wanted to add his input, but didn't have his space bar at the time. Go expand your miniscule ego somewhere else.

[Flametrooper]

Thanks for that, Rebdragon. (yay, I fixed it! Turned out all I had to do was mess with the cable a lot, and change how it was plugged in. Who'da thunk it?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, would someone mind answering my original question?

[anonimu]

 

"In 2002, an Australian team led by Paul Davies came to the conclusion that the speed of light is changing."

 

 

 

This could have really strange consequences, which includes that the speed that we travel with in the 4th dimension is changing. If this is one of the consequences, the Earth might be 6000yrs old in sometime's value of 1yr (for example, if 1yr now is 2/3 million times longer than 1yr at the beggining of the Earth, the Earth would 6000yrs old measured in yrs' length at the beggining of the Earth).

 

 

 

Also, different living things have different biological perceptions of the speed of time. If god were the first conscious living being (which would probably mean he wasn't carbon based, but was more like a galaxy whose components could interact, much like the chemicals in out brain, and that it's probably dead by now due to the universe expanding), the Earth might be 6000 of his years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need the source of the information, thanks.

 

 

 

The speed of light thing was on the wikipedia article about the theory of relativity a while ago...

[warri0r45]

 

 

"In 2002, an Australian team led by Paul Davies came to the conclusion that the speed of light is changing."

 

 

 

This could have really strange consequences, which includes that the speed that we travel with in the 4th dimension is changing. If this is one of the consequences, the Earth might be 6000yrs old in sometime's value of 1yr (for example, if 1yr now is 2/3 million times longer than 1yr at the beggining of the Earth, the Earth would 6000yrs old measured in yrs' length at the beggining of the Earth).

 

 

 

Also, different living things have different biological perceptions of the speed of time. If god were the first conscious living being (which would probably mean he wasn't carbon based, but was more like a galaxy whose components could interact, much like the chemicals in out brain, and that it's probably dead by now due to the universe expanding), the Earth might be 6000 of his years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need the source of the information, thanks.

 

 

 

The speed of light thing was on the wikipedia article about the theory of relativity a while ago...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've read a few articles about the possibility of the speed of light not being constant, but nowhere did it mention of the earths age.

[menot]

 

 

 

"In 2002, an Australian team led by Paul Davies came to the conclusion that the speed of light is changing."

 

 

 

This could have really strange consequences, which includes that the speed that we travel with in the 4th dimension is changing. If this is one of the consequences, the Earth might be 6000yrs old in sometime's value of 1yr (for example, if 1yr now is 2/3 million times longer than 1yr at the beggining of the Earth, the Earth would 6000yrs old measured in yrs' length at the beggining of the Earth).

 

 

 

Also, different living things have different biological perceptions of the speed of time. If god were the first conscious living being (which would probably mean he wasn't carbon based, but was more like a galaxy whose components could interact, much like the chemicals in out brain, and that it's probably dead by now due to the universe expanding), the Earth might be 6000 of his years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need the source of the information, thanks.

 

 

 

The speed of light thing was on the wikipedia article about the theory of relativity a while ago...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've read a few articles about the possibility of the speed of light not being constant, but nowhere did it mention of the earths age.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the speed of light depends what its going through, but apart from that i doubt the constant of the speed of light in a vacuum is changing.

[warri0r45]

It's interesting physics and all, but in the few articles that I have read about it, it never mentioned the age of the earth or evolution. Thanks for the bump by the way. :P

[anonimu]

 

 

 

"In 2002, an Australian team led by Paul Davies came to the conclusion that the speed of light is changing."

 

 

 

This could have really strange consequences, which includes that the speed that we travel with in the 4th dimension is changing. If this is one of the consequences, the Earth might be 6000yrs old in sometime's value of 1yr (for example, if 1yr now is 2/3 million times longer than 1yr at the beggining of the Earth, the Earth would 6000yrs old measured in yrs' length at the beggining of the Earth).

 

 

 

Also, different living things have different biological perceptions of the speed of time. If god were the first conscious living being (which would probably mean he wasn't carbon based, but was more like a galaxy whose components could interact, much like the chemicals in out brain, and that it's probably dead by now due to the universe expanding), the Earth might be 6000 of his years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need the source of the information, thanks.

 

 

 

The speed of light thing was on the wikipedia article about the theory of relativity a while ago...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've read a few articles about the possibility of the speed of light not being constant, but nowhere did it mention of the earths age.

 

 

 

Can you please link me to those articles (already got wikipedia article)?

 

 

 

And just because it doesn't mention the change of the length of time, it doesn't mean that that's not a possible outcome (If you look at the recent John Titor thread, someone posted a link to an article about how light moving in a circle can have strange effects on time (time travel)... Light slowing down or speeding up may affect time too... (Imagine an arrow (light) traveling through water (space-time continuum); when it slows down, the water moves slower around it, and when it speeds up the water moves faster around it... (not a good example...))

 

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Some Young Earth Creationists have investigated the idea of a changing c in 1987[17] as an explanation for the discrepancy between the biblical and measured ages of the universe. This idea was mentioned by Marilyn vos Savant in Parade magazine.[18] This idea has been refuted.[19]

 

 

 

I guess that according to the last sentence (which might written by a(n) wikipedian that doesn't know physics/relativity) I'm wrong... Oh well, my second argument (which is way more confusing, hard to understand, and improbable (also how could we communicate with God if his biological time is about a million times faster than ours?)) still could be right (although it probably isn't in this time line)... But then again, there should be an infinite number of time lines, which means that in some weird time line one or both of my arguments are true...

[warri0r45]

 

 

 

 

"In 2002, an Australian team led by Paul Davies came to the conclusion that the speed of light is changing."

 

 

 

This could have really strange consequences, which includes that the speed that we travel with in the 4th dimension is changing. If this is one of the consequences, the Earth might be 6000yrs old in sometime's value of 1yr (for example, if 1yr now is 2/3 million times longer than 1yr at the beggining of the Earth, the Earth would 6000yrs old measured in yrs' length at the beggining of the Earth).

 

 

 

Also, different living things have different biological perceptions of the speed of time. If god were the first conscious living being (which would probably mean he wasn't carbon based, but was more like a galaxy whose components could interact, much like the chemicals in out brain, and that it's probably dead by now due to the universe expanding), the Earth might be 6000 of his years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need the source of the information, thanks.

 

 

 

The speed of light thing was on the wikipedia article about the theory of relativity a while ago...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've read a few articles about the possibility of the speed of light not being constant, but nowhere did it mention of the earths age.

 

 

 

Can you please link me to those articles (already got wikipedia article)?

 

 

 

And just because it doesn't mention the change of the length of time, it doesn't mean that that's not a possible outcome (If you look at the recent John Titor thread, someone posted a link to an article about how light moving in a circle can have strange effects on time (time travel)... Light slowing down or speeding up may affect time too... (Imagine an arrow (light) traveling through water (space-time continuum); when it slows down, the water moves slower around it, and when it speeds up the water moves faster around it... (not a good example...))

 

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Some Young Earth Creationists have investigated the idea of a changing c in 1987[17] as an explanation for the discrepancy between the biblical and measured ages of the universe. This idea was mentioned by Marilyn vos Savant in Parade magazine.[18] This idea has been refuted.[19]

 

 

 

I guess that according to the last sentence (which might written by a(n) wikipedian that doesn't know physics/relativity) I'm wrong... Oh well, my second argument (which is way more confusing, hard to understand, and improbable (also how could we communicate with God if his biological time is about a million times faster than ours?)) still could be right (although it probably isn't in this time line)... But then again, there should be an infinite number of time lines, which means that in some weird time line one or both of my arguments are true...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for trying I suppose. The wikipedia article extract you gave seems to suggest that the motivation of the science is to prove a religous view right. If you're still up to it, find me a source which I can view.

[Harrington]

You're right... this is a challange, for this evidence cannot possibly exist unless it has been completely falsified. All credible evidence shows that the Earth is around 4.8 - 5.0 billion years old.