MisterGreen

Your opinion. There are things in this world that can't be explained, and never will be no matter how far science advances. Causality. Everything in the Universe has been caused by something at a point in time no matter what it is. There are several theories on how the Universe began, such as the Big Bang. The question is, what caused the Big Bang? And whether the Big Bang theory is correct or incorrect, What caused that? Here's my argument that the existence of God is not illogical, but a very real possibility. Either something that was Un-caused created the Universe, or it goes back in an infinite loop. This is the most likely scenario for the existence of God. But that raises another question, how is this possible? Here's an excerpt from wikipedia- Cosmological argument One of the classic arguments for the existence of God is known as the "Cosmological argument" or "First cause" argument. It works from the premise that every natural event is the effect of a cause. If this is so, then the events that caused today's events must have had causes themselves, which must have had causes, and so forth. If the chain never ends, then one must uphold the hypothesis of an "actual infinite", which is often regarded as problematic, see Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel. If the chain does end, it must end with a non-natural or supernatural cause at the start of the natural world -- e.g. a creation by God. There are many critics for this argument, such as Steven Hawking- Critics of this argument point out problems with it. The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time. Then, the question "What was there before the Universe?" makes no sense; the concept of "before" becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time, and thus the concepts of cause and effect so necessary to the cosmological argument no longer apply. This has been put forward by Stephen Hawking, who said that asking what occurred before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the North Pole. However, some cosmologists and physicists do attempt to investigate what could have occurred before the Big Bang, using such scenarios as the collision of branes to give a cause for the Big Bang. -excerpt from wikipedia My answer to the criticism for this argument is this- How do you know there was nothing before the Big Bang? Or if the Big Bang ocurred at all? What if God caused the Big Bang? If it did happen, it would have to be unnatural/ supernatural for it to have happened, in other words beyond our current understanding, or something that cannot be understood at all no matter how far science progresses. Then another issue comes up. They say that the belief in God only exists because of a lack of knowledge and understanding of the universe, but the same thing can be said about the Big Bang. Although there is evidence for the Big bang, not everything is explained. Here's an excerpt from a string theory/Big Bang theory article- The conventional model for the expansion of the universe assumes that the universe once existed as a very small, point-like volume called a singularity. Then the Big Bang occurred, and the universe rapidly expanded. An extension of this, and one main competitor of the brane model, is the Big Crunch/Big Bang theory, which assumes that the universe was once vast, then crunched down to a singularity before expanding. The Big Bang/Big Crunch model implies that time existed before the Big Bang. The problem with the Big Crunch/Big Bang model is that the mathematical laws of classical general relativity do not work at a singularity. And if scientists cannot mathematically understand the singularity, they cannot, in theory, fully understand the geometry of spacetime, either before the Big Crunch or after the Big Bang. Our brane model allows us to mathematically address what might have happened at the Big Bang, and also gives a novel interpretation of time in string theory, said Leigh. He and his group propose that time began when, via a Big Bang-like event, the brane decayed into closed strings (loops) that propagated off to create the ordinary matter that makes up the universe. This scenario, while avoiding the mathematical problems of a singularity, also helps explain some other issues. For example, to us, the universe looks the same in every direction. Within this brane model, the homogeneity of the universe could be explained as the result of an early universe with homogenous initial conditions, such as a brane that evenly filled space. Leigh and his colleagues may further explore this in additional studies -Brane Decay and an Initial Spacelike Singularity, Phys. Rev. Lett. 96, 031301 (2006) By Laura Mgrdichian, Copyright 2006 PhysOrg.com In other words, without string theory, the Big bang cannot be explained mathematically. But there are several problems with String Theory as well- Is string theory falsifiable? Following the appearance of two books claiming string theory is a failure,[17][18] a hot media debate evolved in 2007.[19][20]. "For more than a generation, physicists have been chasing a will-o-the-wisp called string theory. The beginning of this chase marked the end of what had been three-quarters of a century of progress. Dozens of string-theory conferences have been held, hundreds of new Ph.D.s have been minted, and thousands of papers have been written. Yet, for all this activity, not a single new testable prediction has been made, not a single theoretical puzzle has been solved. In fact, there is no theory so farjust a set of hunches and calculations suggesting that a theory might exist. And, even if it does, this theory will come in such a bewildering number of versions that it will be of no practical use: a Theory of Nothing." -excerpt from wikipedia In simpler terms, it's guesswork. There has not been a single test verifying string theory. But people say the same thing about God. So in the end, no matter what is proven or unproven, all of it boils down in to one simple word. Faith. Whether it be faith in an unproven scientific theory, or God, it's not ridiculous, it is a part of everyday life. It depends on the person what they believe in. So all of you are wasting your time arguing, it's most likely no one's opinion is going to change, the people that clicked on the thread probably didn't come here for answers, but to argue their point and not get anywhere with it. Your going to argue pointlessly for awhile, then the thread will die off when everyone gets tired. For a person to change, they have to want to change. So this thread is pretty much going nowhere, no matter what you say. Trust me, I've seen it before. So trying to change someones opinion when they don't want to change it is pointless, frustrating and nearly impossible to do. Try talking to people who are willing to listen to what you have to say. Can't find any? Hold a seminar and put up flyers. People who want to know more will come, trust me. The counter-productivity levels in this thread are OVER 9,000. So let's all agree to disagree, and get on with our lives.

You do not know how we got here, what makes your claims about the origin of the Universe any more relevant than mine? Is it evidence? Well there is plenty of that. http://www.godandscience.org/slideshow/sld001.html How do I know that God doesn't want puppets? It is written in the Bible that he gave man the freedom of choice to follow him or not. He can't make a sandwich so large he can't finish it because the statement contradicts itself and doesn't apply to God because it's nonesense. That's like saying "Can God make something so black that it's white?" It doesn't make sense. Why would God fear his own creations? Especially since he wields infinite power? My friend, It's a matter of opinion. You can't prove either side of the argument. It all has to do with the person and their own conclusions. This debate is already over.

[/hide] Einstein was not Agnostic, he was Atheist. Though I may also add, if the Bible is the word of God, why are the works of William Shakespeare better? 1. He was Agnostic. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html 2. Your opinion on whether something is better than the Bible or not is irrelevant to the discussion. Albert Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." However, it would also seem that Einstein was not an atheist, since he also complained about being put into that camp: "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

[/hide] Einstein was not Agnostic, he was Atheist. Though I may also add, if the Bible is the word of God, why are the works of William Shakespeare better? 1. He was Agnostic. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.html 2. Your opinion on whether something is better than the Bible or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

Jewish, Arabian, Roman. He could be anything. I don't really care what his skin color was.

Hmmm... I like a girl that is- True to themself intelligent Strong-willed similar interests

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice. Can I just ask you a second question after this one? Are you Christian? I need to know before we continue this discussion, because as far as I'm aware, Christians claim God to be omniscience and omnipotent, and you claim to know the inner workings of Gods mind and actions. So I'm wondering if maybe you worship some sort of Pagan sheep god, because clearly we're talking about two different gods here. The Christian God is omniscience, therefore all knowing, therefore he knows the future, therefore there is no free will. Oh, how tactful and respectful you are. Christians have long argued the powers of God and what the meaning of infinity and all mighty when it comes to God, In other words not all Christians are alike or share the exact same beliefs. The Bible has been interpreted in many different ways over many years. The meaning of omniscient when it comes to God can be interpreted differently. I believe he has the power, he just chooses not to use it unless necessary. It's the same with creating the Universe, why did he do it in six days if he's all powerful? I think he did so because he enjoyed doing so. Think of an artist, or a craftsman, or someone that has a hobby and really likes doing what they do. If they had the choice to make everything instantly, things would become boring. It's the journey that counts more, not the end result. As for my religion, I am a Christian, non-denominational. Well then that's the end of our debate. We are not arguing with logic, we are arguing your personal beliefs, whether they are the commonly accepted Christian beliefs or not. I can never win such an argument, no matter how great mine is. Have a nice life.[/hide] There are many non-denominational Christians, I assure you. But I digress, It is a matter of opinion in the end. Just depends on the person. Only way to find out is to die. Thanks for the intellectual discussion, I've tried debating with people before and they flat out insulted me because they couldn't come up with a good counter argument.

I am alreadly questioning the christian god's morality, how is this any different if he appeared? Assuming the christian god were to appear I demand he explain soddom and ghamorran(horrible spelling), how was it not interfering with free will when he flattened two cities just because they were sinful? How was it not interfering with free will when god flooded the earth and wiped out everyone except those who he chose to live(noah)? When god crumbled the walls of jericho was it not interfering with the natural choice of Joshua to attack, with walls that city would have survived. etc. If god doesnt intefere with free will then why are there so many examples of him interfering with free will. Unless you wish to deny the great flood, soddom, and parting of the red sea(promising aid to refugees interferes with their choice to flee) then god has already impeded free will. Like I have said, he does interfere in given situations.

Exactly. We have the power to choose. However, I do believe he does interfere in extreme situations.

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice. Can I just ask you a second question after this one? Are you Christian? I need to know before we continue this discussion, because as far as I'm aware, Christians claim God to be omniscience and omnipotent, and you claim to know the inner workings of Gods mind and actions. So I'm wondering if maybe you worship some sort of Pagan sheep god, because clearly we're talking about two different gods here. The Christian God is omniscience, therefore all knowing, therefore he knows the future, therefore there is no free will. Oh, how tactful and respectful you are. Christians have long argued the powers of God and what the meaning of infinity and all mighty when it comes to God, In other words not all Christians are alike or share the exact same beliefs. The Bible has been interpreted in many different ways over many years. The meaning of omniscient when it comes to God can be interpreted differently. I believe he has the power, he just chooses not to use it unless necessary. It's the same with creating the Universe, why did he do it in six days if he's all powerful? I think he did so because he enjoyed doing so. Think of an artist, or a craftsman, or someone that has a hobby and really likes doing what they do. If they had the choice to make everything instantly, things would become boring. It's the journey that counts more, not the end result. As for my religion, I am a Christian, non-denominational.

Yes. But he limits himself to give man the freedom of choice.

"One of the most common questions asked about God is this- If God is good, why doesnt He intervene in the affairs of man? This is especially so when there is suffering or an evil that should have been stopped by a good God. What might happen indeed when God intervenes: · God stops us from getting sick · God stops us from dying when attacked by others · God stops us from sinning · God stops others from sinning against us As we might note, if God intervenes, He must consistently do so also in order not to be deemed as imperfect or as evil. And when He does, the Laws of this world He has created shall all be broken by the very One who created it. Freedom and freewill shall no longer be, and He will infringe upon the dignity of the man He has so created in His very own image. The source of suffering in this life comes from two things- 1. Suffering of the physical body 2. Suffering of the spiritual self To what suffering then must God intervene for us all that we may deem Him Good and Perfect? · As to remedying sin (cause of suffering of spiritual self), Love cannot be forced · As to remedying physical illness and death (cause of suffering of physical body), it would be a curse to give immortality to those who have not learned of love." source- http://itakeoffthemask.com/god/why-doesnt-god-intervene-in-mans-affairs/ In other words, if he revealed himself to everyone, his law would be basically forced upon us and we wouldn't have the freedom of choice, and as I've said before, He wants us to choose for ourselves, because otherwise we would be mere puppets.

He has revealed himself, although very subtly. You just gotta know how and where to look. It doesn't say specifically, but it is implied that new soul is created when you are conceived.

life sprouting from chemicals is not as complex as god because it could be understood by a human, if I recall the bible specifically says god is beyond human understanding(wording may be different) the earth is the perfect distance from the sun due to the anthropic principle, life isnt going to "generate" where it cant live. For a practical example, you wont find a snake in antartica because it cant live there agreed, the attempts at illogical questions arent good, I do ask though, can god kill/decreate himself? Which amounts to is god a being or a force? Time does exist, its relative but it never moves backward. One second passing here isnt one second the universe, but change is occuring in a forward direction everywhere. Time goes on forever because conservation of mass proves that what exists now cannot cease to exist. If god can change anything at any time, then I find him at fault for allowing every single murder througout time. Just because you made the choice to shoot the president(for instance) doesnt mean god cant give you a seizure to stop it. If we already had free will, then god allowing the devil to come to earth(knowing he had bad intentions) is allowing evil to propagate. From my understanding of the bible, adam and eve were "perfect" in behavior before they ran into the devil. So its logical to assume that its possible we would still be in eden if god hadnt allowed the devil to come to earth. Now that leads me to think god was perfectly fine with all human suffering since he did nothing to discourage it occuring.[/hide] "With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good. The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly exercised thereby (Hebrews 12:11). Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, for the present, He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives. " source- http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Finally found it- http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:44;&version=9; Here's a quote from the passage, Jesus is talking to Jewish leaders that are conspiring to kill him, and their relation to the devil. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

I'm back. Anyway, God created the devil to tempt man, in other words the devil is the source of evil. He let's him exist because if only good existed, everyone wouldn't have true free will. Excuse me, but since we're referencing the biblical God and devil, do you have any verses that support your hypothesis? What do you want, exactly? An example? The devil tempting Jesus, The devil destroying Job's life, etc.? Here's the links for each- Job Temptation of Christ

That's you're opinion. So you're saying that we exist because of nearly impossible events occuring many times (Such as life sprouting from a chemical mix, the Earth being the perfect distance from the Sun as not to fry anything alive, etc.,) is more probable than a creator? I fail to see the logic. God can do everything that doesn't contradict itself, no God can't make a sandwich so big even he couldn't finish it, or make rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, what you are saying is nonesense and therefore null and void. God change his future mind? Time is an illusion, it is merely a series of events of change within an object that are recorded, and we percieve this phenomena as time. It is a finite thing now matter how long it goes on because it had a beginning, and God existed before time, and he will exist afterward if it ever ends. In other words, God has no beggining, or an end. Like I said, God limits himself so that we have free will, but he could do whatever he wants at any time. God is not a coward, He wants something that can think for itself to choose the right path, not a puppet.

I'm back. Anyway, God created the devil to tempt man, in other words the devil is the source of evil. He let's him exist because if only good existed, everyone wouldn't have true free will.

Repost-

Yes. He limits himself. But he still has the power. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive. [/hide] The future is the future! If God knows what the future holds, he knows what might, can, could, almost, maybe, will happen, etc! So can God see the future or not? If not, he is not God. It's getting repetitive because you are unaware of this neat little thing called LOGIC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#Criticisms Please read this. What I am saying about God is considered omniscience. here's a passage from the article- I go with choice #1. God chooses to know what he wants to know. He knows the future, and all possible happenings, but in a way that gives us free will. Is it that hard to understand? Yes choice #2 is technically impossible, but that's not what I was trying to prove. I was arguing for #1, which you seemed to think wasn't omniscience. According to this, it is considered a definition for it. Now it's around 4:00 A.M. where I live, and I would like to go to bed. I'll continue the argument later. Goodnight.

Yes. He limits himself. But he still has the power. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive. [/hide] I could've sworn that it was the fruit that Eve ate was what gave us free will, not God. She found out the difference between good and evil, not gain free will. Eve ate the fruit of her own decision.

Our brains. Who created our brains? My parents, and indirectly God. Indirectly? So all that stuff about God creating man in his own image is just bs then..? No. God created Adam in his image. God created Eve from Adam. They had children, and so on and so forth to present day.

Yes. He limits himself. But he still has the power. Listen. He knows the paths we can take, and he knows what will happen when we take them. He limits himself on this knowledge alone. If he wanted to, he could control us and make everything set in stone. But he let's us do as we please. He has the power to do so, he just doesn't use it on us. We obviously have different ideas of the meaning of omniscience, and this is getting repetitive.

Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so. [/hide] Where do choices come from? Our brains. Who created our brains? My parents, and indirectly God.

Free will is the ability to make a choice, decide b/w A or B. Knowing what can happen as a result of said choice does not take away the ability to make that choice and others following it. We still have free will. No, we do not. From our very first choice that we made we've only made a chain reaction of different choices. If he knows the result from one choice then he knows what the rest of our life is going to be like from the second we come out of the womb. If we make a choice, it opens up many other choices. We choose from them, and God knows what can happen from the various choices we make. He doesn't pre-determine our choices. It's only set in stone if you make it so. [/hide] Where do choices come from? Our brains.