LTH_Dev_Ranges

doubt you ever heard me lead, as I didnt do so for 3 months, maybe once or twice. but other than that I agree I'm sure I've heard you lead at least once or twice and it was solid :P

I've been a leader in my past clans, and I've been FA Manager, Council, and Warlord for Lethality. The one I've enjoyed the most is Warlord cause I can be somewhat of a jerk and get away with it and I enjoy leading in wars.

I definitely see that happening in the future with a lot of the top CWA clans

I am "levelcist" when I do Dung. I only go with 130+ because everytime I have joined lower leveled teams I always get ditchers and idiots who freak out after one death and leave. With the 130+ teams I have joined I haven't had that problem.

Most of the guys that call for Silent Ember have been solid. So: Thealth Mageprayhero ZQ Romdath

Burthorpe guy doesn't count for # of tasks

Ya you do lol. You always do well in the silent ember wars with those hot dung weps :P

T-pain autotune isnt music

Thanks Moriquendi for the good clean war. I got a lot of respect for you guys.

I've always thought that adding the Ava's Accumulator to the Ranged cape would be nice.

Thats one of our points Pumkin.

@rice In the original post we already pointed out that the DG weapons are not a monumental increase. And as we've said, aren't we trying to push the warring community forward, not keep it at a standstill. These new weapons force people to react faster and tank better, even though the change is not that much.

I love the look of my skillcape, with the "ropes" or whatever they are hanging down in the front and the sweet shoulder pads. I hate wearing my HP cape though, as I feel it's not as big of an achievement as my Magic and Ranged capes; I wear those much more often.

I block skeletal wyverns cause I find them to be an annoying task. A few others to consider are stuff like Black Demons or other tasks that take a long time and don't give much profit (though BDs are fantastic xp)

Gratz Quickdrawjoe. I've only had one interaction with you but you seem like a pretty cool guy and I know you'll do well.

Thanks for the support HARichards :)

Put me down as a supporter. A great suggestion.

Ya and they're a fantastic clan who fought hard. I have a lot of respect for them. And @Jifaru, I'm going to start asking for no Rune armour soon enough lol

I never argued that they shouldn't be on for all fights. I love wars that are all styles with Dungeoneering on. Today we (Silent Ember) fought BK with those rules and it was a lot of fun. And you're trying to get away from the topic of Dungeoneering by trying to criticize another aspect of warring rules. I can't fight all the battles at once.

Ya buzz thats what I'm going for here. I at the very least ask for Dung to be on every war. If they say no I try to give them a little somethin (like if they want ranged off and I want it on) their way in exchange for Dung weapons on.

You can consider it a minigame if you'd like, but it is regarded as a skill by its creator. And Runescape even changed its name to Runescape: Dungeons of Daemonheim because this skill encompasses almost every skill you use into one "super" skill.

Both of those problem are addressed above. Feel free to post an actual rebuttal.

I get extra pumped up if I catch a good bind that results in a k0 or if I see one of my clanmates have an epic tank.

And thats the kind of statements I was talking about that only address the "problem" but give no reasons why.

Please don't post here if you don't read it all. This is something that I wrote along with the leader of Lethality, Jifaru. This is mainly for Warlords/Leaders/whoever else your clan allows to get wars. Please don't flame for an opinion, and if your opinion is the opposite, feel free to share it in a RESPECTFUL manner. Also, I know this is my first post. I had an old account and something go messed up and I can't access the email it was connected to so don't let my 1 post count confuse you :P ------------------------------ The Case for Dungeoneering in F2P Wars Written by Dev Ranges and Jifaru I. Introduction If I could say, with a straight face, that the release of Dungeoneering has been one of the most divisive but crucial events for organized Free-to-Play warring, I would actually be quite proud of that. But for many clans, Dungeoneering has regrettably been neither divisive, nor crucial - it has simply been brushed aside by countless clans as something "boring," "expensive," "not worthwhile," or "unfair." While most major transitions do take some time to become mainstream, the resistance against Dungeoneering has been particularly staggering. In many weeks of seeking an audience with the warring community to bring a serious discussion about Dungeoneering to the table, I have found little in the way of solid argumentation. Instead, there seems to be a general trend to just sweep the issue under the table, or bring up some feeble excuse. So while we ask the rhetorical question, "Why not," we hope that you all take the time to read through this argument. By the end, the choice should be clear. II. A Case for Progress "Dungeoneering weapons hold warring back because there's so many more k0s." I've heard this pathetic statement multiple times. Dungeoneering doesn't hold warring back, it forces it to progress. You may have been an epic tank against a group of Rune Scimitars, but lets throw a few Gravite Longswords and 2h Swords into the mix. It forces you to think faster, react quicker, drag better, and tank harder. Gravite does nothing more than this - it does not break the game, it does not make tanking impossible. If you take the time to do a simple stat analysis, you will invariably find that Gravite is a small upgrade - big enough to take competitive warring to the next level, but not big enough to overwhelm warring with RNG. Dungeoneering weapons can be used in a large variety of circumstances. The Gravite Longsword and Rapier are ideal for hybrids, as they simply replace the Rune Scimitar/Longsword/Battleaxe that hybrids are already using. The stat differentials between Gravite and Rune are noticeable, but not overwhelmingly so. Take, for example, the gravite rapier, which boasts a +50 stab attack (versus the +45 slash attack of the rune scimitar), and a +48 strength bonus, which is four higher than that of the rune scimitar. A four-strength difference roughly translates to a 10 life point difference in max hit, whereas the stab attack used exclusively by the rapier gives a slight edge over full rune, but falters when used against even measly dragonhide armor. The gravite longsword, on the other hand, is an even smaller upgrade from the rune longsword. While it is capable of hitting for about 14 life points more, whether or not to use a longsword will STILL remain a matter of personal preference, and will only situationally influence a war. The advantages are great enough to punish those who are not ready to tank, for those who cannot respond to the situations around them. But in the grand scheme of an entire war, a switch to gravite weapons poses mostly situational benefits. The Gravite 2h Sword is great for sniping, as snipers (most of whom are 99 strength and pot/pray for a lot of their time in the arena) can hit up to 370. I have personally two snipers with Gravite 2h's hit a 350 each on a binder, and their fall in leader quickly switched piles and got an easy k0. However, the fact that the Gravite 2h sword only works effectively on crush makes it that much harder to snipe a ranger, or deal with someone wearing a rune chain. Furthermore, two-hand sniping leaves the sniper much more vulnerable to anti'ing. So in the end, what comes out ahead? The individual sniper, who has a shiny new weapon, or the ability of each clan to allocate their snipers and anti-snipers to their maximum effectiveness? I don't see a need to explicitly answer that question. The Longbow Sight is great for any war (with ranged on, obviously) because it is so easy to get rid of snipers when you have one. For those of you who don't know, wearing full rune (with gauntlets) with a Maple Longbow (Sighted) gives you a higher ranged bonus than full Green D'hide armour with a Maple Shortbow. What does this mean for rangers? That's for you to figure out. The accuracy of the sighted longbow makes it a powerful weapon, but you are sacrificing a little bit of speed. Once again, is this enough to break the game? Hardly. But is it enough to change the way we war, to critically analyze the situations around us, and think our feet? Definitely. III. The Fallacy of Disadvantage A lot of times I've asked for wars with Dungeoneering on, I get the reply "well it isn't fair, you guys probably have more Dung weapoins than we do." That's complete crap. In that case, we should be turining off individual stats that give teams advantages. How about we send on person to the other side at the beginning of a war to drop 3 people with 99 hp down to 800 LP's, because their high HP gives them an advantage over lower levels? And how about clans with a higher combat average? Should we make them drop their higher levels so that the combat averages are more equal between the clans? If you're looking for a completely "fair," [bleep]-for-tat war, I guarantee that even in a simple melee/binds war in Classic arena, you won't find it. There will always be one clan that has a better sniper, or a better tank, and I guarantee one will have a higher Magic average than the other. A big part of clan wars is accepting that there are stat differences between you and your opponent, and there also are skill differences. A clan that never wants to face another clan with higher levels will never improve. IV. The Money Factor (Degrading Weapons) A lot of concern over Dungeoneering weapons is that they will give a significant advantage to the rich, as they can easily recharge the weapons without putting a large dent in their GPs. This is true in some senses, but how long will it take until you actually have to recharge? Well, most clans I have been in have 2-4 wars per weekend, and have them here and there on weekdays. Let's just say for argument's sake that you manage to attend 2 of those wars. Now, your weapon only degrades while you are IN COMBAT. That means that all of the time you spend binding, running after opponents that get good drags, and tanking take away from the time you would be using your weapon. Once again for arguments sake, let's say you spend 20 minutes (and that's generous, since usually you will tank in at least 50% of wars) in combat every war you attend. A Dungeoneering weapon lasts for 600 minutes (10 hours) of combat time. That means that it will take you 30 wars until you have to recharge. In a broader term, thats 3.00-3.75 months until you are recharging your weapon. And let's not forget that you have options of recharging. For the richer players, the option of dropping 1M GP is more appealing, so you can save up those tokens for the Chaotic Longsword (so epic). For poorer players, you need 100K GP and 10k Dungeoneering Tokens, which translates to about three 5:5s at level 60+ Dungeoneering. Gravite is not anything like Corrupt, an analysis that many people have been drawn to like a fat kid to cake. The fact that corrupt is exorbitantly expensive, for only an hour of usage, makes it so that a clan with wealthy players who can consistently bring top-tier weapons AND armor to a war, will repeatedly stomp a clan that cannot field such equipment. In the stat analysis done above, we have conclusively shown that Gravite is not enough to break the game or prevent tanking. Nor are its fees so exorbitant that the average player cannot afford them. Every player has the option of training up to 50 DG for a longbow sight (which is free to use and maintain), or 64 DG for a FREE gravite weapon that starts at 20% charge. Even on that 20%, you can use that weapon for many wars before having to recharge. If situational costs are such a big deal to everyone, why don't we ban ranging, because Adamant Arrows can run up to the millions depending on how many are shot. Why don't we ban Binds, because 2 nature runes are damn expensive, and many proficient binders often spend hundreds of nature runes in a given war. How about all those clans who say that DG is too expensive, but regularly have PKRI's in which millions and millions of coins' worth of Rune equipment is lost every time? How about the Runecrafting Staff, which at a hefty sum of 10,000 tokens, can be cashed in for Pure Essence or Water Talismans for a huge sum of cash? Anyway, this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten... but leads to the next point: V. These are "Minigame" Weapons To these naysayers, I have 2 simple minigames to throw at you: Great Orb Project and Fist of Guthix. First off, Dungeoneering is a SKILL, not a minigame. You're welcome to argue otherwise, but then again all you have to do is open your skills tab to see my point. But going along with this minigame fallacy, let's not forget that there isn't a war that we fight today (outside of PvP of course) that doesn't have something from a minigame in it. We all use Rune Gauntlets, Berserker Shields, Druidic Robes, Runecrafter's Staff, and Runecrafter's Robes. If I were to approach any warlord and ask for no GOP or FOG items, I would be laughed at until I was kicked from their channel. Whats the difference between those items and Dungeoneering items, since they are both things you have to earn (whether you earned your FOG items or bought them)? The difference is, Dungeoneering is a skill. A skill which, after a long period of training, yields a small but tangible benefit to the individual. Much like the difference between 97 or 99 magic, between 98 and 99 HP. But instead, we're looking at approximately 100k experience for a sighted longbow, and 400k for a gravite weapon. Dungeoneering is not a minigame, but even if it was, may I remind everyone that between the rune berserker shield and rune gauntlets, a total of +6 strength is added. This boost is more than either the upgrade from rune scimitar to gravite rapier, or the upgrade from rune longsword to gravite longsword. Why don't we ban FoG equipment too? VI. Dungeoneering is so Boring to Train Don't lie to me and act like you thoroughly enjoyed getting max melee while mindlessly doing Slayer tasks. And if you were F2P and AFKed spiders that entire time, I hope you've smelled fresh air sometime in the past few years. And lets not forget about the 126s who all have at one point felt hopeless while getting 99 prayer, whether in F2P or P2P. And how about those with 99 Magic (assuming they didn't bot) who spent hours and hours alching, barraging, enchanting, and other mind numbing activities. My point is that the road to your prize isn't always fun, but the prize itself is what you aim for. A quick tip to help you with training though, is to get your clan involved. I often have to go solo because I can't find other people, and I'm sick of dealing with ditchers in World 117. If you get a few of your clanmates interested in Dungeoneering, you've just gotten yourself much faster xp and some friends to go through the "pain" with you. And for those of you who have done Dungeoneering yourselves, you all know it's far more fun with others than flying solo. If the argument here is that we should not train our skills because they are "too boring," well, actually, I have nothing to say to that. It's far too ridiculous. VII. Conclusion Dungeoneering isn't just another skill, it is an entire experience. It is easy for those who have never participated to just cast it aside, but there is so much potential, not only for warring, but for the clan community as well. What is the hubbub that Dungeoneering has raised among all the naysayers? Is it the time commitment? The marginal cost of a 100k-1m recharge fee? A +4 strength upgrade to the gravite rapier? A +5.5 strength upgrade to the gravite longsword? The ability to get anti'd out the ass when using a gravite longsword? It's hard to say, but none of these things are even remotely feasible. So what did many of us have to suffer through when trying to get that coveted longbow sight or gravite weapon? We had to suffer through long hours with our fellow clanmates, developing closer ties than ever before both on and off the battlefield. We had to suffer through community-building events, and hilarious incidents when one of our friends would randomly get killed by a fishing accident, a mining mishap, or a rogue ferret. And we had to suffer through the glory of defeating a clan that had far more dungeoneering weapons fielded than we did, solely because of our organization and warring abilities. I don't know about you, but I'd suffer through that any day.