Sona

I see what you're getting at. So you suggest a trust-based system where Jagex gives increased priority/other benefits to players who consistently display adequate behavior when it comes to reporting? Sounds very ... disciplined. :P As for the scrambling of IDs, I think it's been discussed elsewhere. The consensus is that if it's doable/practical/productive, Jagex would have done it already. So ... I'll leave it up to you to think about the implications.

Quyneax (or anyone equipped to handle the question): I am curious about one thing. From a high-end player perspective, would you say that Dungeoneering items are a necessity at your level of play at this point? EDIT: To clarify. I'm one of those idiots who soloed my way to 80ish and then realized that I didn't have 80 atk to use the rapier... derp. So, having no prior experience to go by, I'm just trying to understand why people would want to max out/obtain the rewards in this skill as opposed to others that may give more practical benefits.

Time to be the Stormcrow. EDIT: Please note: I am not picking on you. You simply express valid opinions that I feel a strong affinity to respond to. I was once in your shoes expressing similar opinions about games that I liked. :P I was actively involved in administration, both for the game and the player community. Then I figured out some things, and I'm here now. Compare the number of individuals who participate in forum interaction and the number of players. You'll find the same handful of players posting nearly repetitively in all areas. All in all, there may be a thousand regular posters on the official forums, if even that. Again. You are the vocal minority who believe that they are the majority. You're not being listened to because there isn't enough of you. Compare the size of this community (this means all the big fansites + official forums) to say, LOTRO or EVE, which has some of the biggest degrees of player participation I've ever seen, and you'll see what I mean. Especially EVE's intergalactic senate. That's probably one of the best instances I've seen where player decisionmaking actually matters. Also. Forgot to mention. You're all sort of scattered about. There's what, Zybez? RuneHQ? Sal's Realm? This one? The Wiki? I think most players probably only post in one at the most. Runescape's 'community' has little to no organization. If you want to shore up and show Jagex what it's about, get organized. As in, more organized than silly riots or one person bumping a thread until oblivion comes. The point I'm trying to make is simple. If you wish to create impact, either get more of you, or do something high profile. Dressing up like a combat bot and crash Runefest (the idea you had) is a great idea if you won't get arrested for it. If enough people respond, Jagex may be forced to something. If. PR trick is good PR trick.

There are entire provinces in China and India that are IP blocked due to goldfarming. Judging from some of the international hubs I occasionally frequent (speaking many, many languages help here), Jagex smashes RWT traders extremely hard if they're not from a UK/US based IP. Someone bought gold and a day later they were banned, and they proceeded to rage on forums because of it. The amount he bought? 15 mil. Goldfarming groups tend to be based in certain Asian countries and certain eastern European countries. The amount you see in the US is but a small fraction. There's a reason why vigilante justice didn't work out in medieval Europe. There's also a reason why Batman exists only in fiction. If the reward is insignificant, you reduce psychological incentive for a player to carry out an act - that's been proven. If the reward is too significant, you open the floodgates to totally different problems that would not have existed prior to implementation of such a practice. Paranoia. Flooding of reports. False reports. Tell me. How would you like it if someone ran up to you and asked "r u bot? answer or I REPORT U"? "I don't mind," you'll probably say. Good. Now imagine this happening every five minutes, day after day after day after day. A player should not be forced to interact with people he or she doesn't wish to interact with. I personally find it more enlightening to read CNN comments than interacting in any way with say, Ipkurmom1337. There's a reason why some of us simply play with public off. ;)

Er... The only time a major MMO company ever needed to regain their player's trust is SONY's Star Wars Galaxies Online. ... That game is now shutting down in December. See, another perspective, and one that isn't nearly so pretty, would be one that implies player trust is at stake. If Jagex suddenly did something drastic - perhaps removing free trade or something on a similar scale back in the day - then it does make sense for them to "prep" the community.

A few days ago, I asked in the F2P thread how all of you can tolerate the abysmal conditions there with all of the bot's chatspam. The answer I got? "Cheaper prices would be nice." You know what? I can do better. Hi, Sona here, with a special W42 offer. For a limited time only (read: whenever I'm playing, more or less), I am willing to be your maidservant/lady-in-waiting/courtesan (no, not that kind of courtesan). If you have a desire for a certain tradable good from the P2P world, you have but to inquire within. So, consider me some sort of odd EXP lamp that gave items in a significant quantity. How this'll work: You tell what you want. If it's something I can do, I go gather the items. You get your items. I go on my merry way. But wait, there's more! I'm not even asking to get paid. Whatever you want, I'll do my best to get to you, absolutely free.* If you're leery of being flagged (and I'm personally not sure if Jagex does this - I don't think the average player is insane enough to give away consumables on a regular basis, but they gotta detect gold-sellers somehow, right?) by some sort of ungodly complex anti-RWT program, feel free to tip me some amount in which you feel is appropriate. All you have to do is leave me a message here. Tell me what you want. Tell me what you plan to do with it. Give me an amount if applicable. I'll get back to you within the next game update and we'll work something out. But I'm not done yet! If you call now, I'll - ... Actually, I am done. I'm not rich, naive, or bored enough to the point where I'm handing out rares yet. *Limit one per player. and now... the small print.

Is it bad that I had no idea who any of those people in the first article were until I scanned over it?

Blizzard's program compromises security. Major antivirus companies classify it (used to, anyways) as a rootkit because it has the capable to read what's on your computer screen and check running processes. In AFAIK 2008 Blizzard settled out-of-court with certain antivirus companies. The condition? Warden would be taken off of their blacklists in exchange for an unknown amount of monetary exchange. Blizzard's argument (somewhat valid) is that we already have your credit card information anyways. What else can I take from you? Bottom line is that there's no way for Jagex to include something like this and work it into a browser.

Maybe 100 players who legitimately play, wont use it. Of course lots of people will say they won't download it to scare Jagex because they want to keep botting. I don't know how this program would work, but I think it will work better than their current bot detect system that detects all those bots at the moment. Warden, Blizzard's program, is efficient, but Blizzard has a large active staff team who'll teleport players they suspect to be botting. If the player logs out or is suspicious, they're marked for further investigation. In many cases, the ban's outright a ban. Thus, Blizzard, at least, has the manpower to actively hunt down bots in game. It's the gold farmers that they have issues with, as the gold farmers are often legitimate players who, well, play 16 hours a day as their job. In comparison to RS, the majority of Blizzard bots tend to be battlegrounds - except again, players actively report them because many of the BG bots do have flaws. When was the last time any of you reported a pest control or SC bot? Could you even tell? :P

Got to disagree with that. Less information released to big audiences, the better they can keep bot scripters from finding workarounds before they're even implemented, wouldn't you think? Aren't all these insider sessions locked down by legal agreements not to talk about it? I agree with your perspective. However, given that the majority of Jagex's player base is considerably younger than what we would expect reasonable behavior from... Consider this for a moment. Let's say you're a scripter making hundreds if not thousands of dollars on RS scripts. Wouldn't it make sense for you to y'know, go to this bot-busting thing? To figure out how exactly things take place? How hard is it to get a ticket to said event? I'm gonna guess not very. I fail to see the rationale in keeping anti-bot measurements away from the public. Other MMOs, for instance, explain full-well what they use, and they're met with varying degrees of success. Warden may be the most famous, though it certainly isn't the last one. Keeping secrets is only beneficial IF the secret is kept. With a game the scale of RS, it's going to be leaked, sooner or later. If you have a super secret special awesome panel, and one person leaks your secret to say, the botting community. Congratulations! Not only are you not gonna have any secrets kept, but you're left with a very unhappy vocal minority insisting on "why don't I get to know what's going on?" I mean, seriously. What's Jagex going to do? Hire a guard at the door and stare at anyone sternly and ask "are u bot scripter?" as they try to get in? In this case, it may be better for them to be transparent than to try to keep things behind doors.

Very vaguely asiatic. If you mix and match stuff, though, some characters end up looking really good. I'm just glad that I don't have to stick to vyrewatch heels if I wanted heels on my character. :P Personally, I think the top should've been one piece with the sleeves and the apron-looking thing. The du dou is a common woman's (under)garment from the inspiration in which they likely drew from. It's like a chemise, but a bit less structured.

Huh. Apparently female Changshan outfit has high heels. It actually looks pretty good, too.

If it's just words and planning, it's a PR stunt. If they actually release something, it's a better PR stunt. If they start releasing stuff consistently ... well, that's actually rebuilding trust, then. Check back in a year.

I brought up this point already elsewhere earlier in the thread. We agree, then, that F2P is a miserable place to be in. However. Weren't those autotalker bots more or less always there? I remember them from 2004. I definitely see them still now. Looks like we're looking at different sources, then. The folks who are operating on larger scales than the US - mostly those located outside of English speaking regions - note that banning is indeed a concern. It's now your word against mine, but I think we can agree on that no matter how lax the issue is, the rule is technically there. That is, in theory, botters are at risk of getting banned. Can we at least agree there? You ban innocent players, it generates bad rep. As simple as that. This is bad for obvious reasons. People would rather play a bot-infested game than a game where one is at risk for randomly being banned. For further reference, I suggest looking into most of the isometric MMOs developed around 2003-2004. Ragnarok Online, for instance, which was a big deal in parts of Southeast Asia, suffered a huge drop in popularity when a player who was unfairly banned brought a hailstorm of media attention to Gravity Inc. I don't think we're arguing from different sides here. You failed to understand the point I was illustrating. I simply point out that Jagex does little (if any) to impede the progress of obvious bots. If the current system cannot even detect IIllIlIlI, how do you expect to detect more advanced scripts? The real question is that if they can quietly modify the path to impede the bot's progress, why haven't they done it? I'd tell you why, but I think it's pointless because neither you or I actually have the capability to use the system. To put it bluntly, Runescape may be a well-designed concept, but its engine is anything but. Seriously. There are copies of RS's source code floating around. If you're really interested, it doesn't hurt to go take a look! Because the purpose of a company, first and foremost, is to make money? So long as subscription numbers roll in - and I've pointed out elsewhere, it has been - does it really matter to them? The answer may be no. That's probably not what you want to hear, but that may very well be the truth. Frankly, they may not see it as a problem - not a significant problem, unlike how you or I may view it. Look. I'm sorry to say this, but you're known in the industry as the vocal minority. In the best case scenario, you're listened to. Maybe the exec might take a note or two and pass it onto the rest of the team. In most cases, you're simply ignored. I've noticed that on the wiki there was a page detailing all the riots. Do you honestly believe that rioting players accomplished anything other than perhaps making themselves look bad? Much like an abusive relationship, MMOs use psychology very well, and often to their advantage. Players are expendable. You could always be replaced by another who doesn't care, or another who's more willing to hand money out. Oh, that EULA you signed when you signed up for the game? You basically have no rights - you actually signed all of that away by saying "ok, I'll play your game." I'm sorry. In the grand scheme of things, you, I, anyone on this forum. We're not even a fraction of a fraction of the potential amount of income in which the game brings in. Some companies do listen, yes, but I'll leave you to decide whether or not Jagex listens. You, after all, surely know the environment much better than I do. No. What I'm suggesting is that you actually act like an adult about it. Have you done your part? If yes, then move on. There's nothing else left for you to do. You can be well informed. You can educate others. You can maybe even scare or convince others into doing the right thing, but insofar as the scope of responsibility, you've done what you can as a player. Yes, agitate up enough players and Jagex may accomplish something, but the place to agitate is not here. It's on somewhere where people are more likely to actually read your opinions. And, the majority of the community - the 170k or so players logged on at any given moment - seem quite used to the topic now. Go to the official forums. You see basically the same usernames bumping the same topic, over and over again. This implies a degree of tolerance. I am not stating that the tolerance is acceptable or unacceptable, but you have to ask yourself. If the problem is as serious as you claim, why aren't more people worked up about it? The answer is: problem isn't irritating enough to make enough people quit. Jagex win because Jagex gets money. Bots win because bots get whatever bots want. Who's the loser here? You. For being upset and not getting what you want. I understand that you're one of those entrenched players here. I respect your longevity and the amount time you've spent on the game, but your attitude, while righteous (and possibly) correct, accomplishes little.

Dear Lord. That is ugly. What kind of a collar is that supposed to be, anyways? ... Actually, I take it back. If my toon can wear that male outfit, I think I'd be pretty happy.

And with pretty reliable frequency, too. Atleast I seemed to get them often. I don't know a lot about how to set up calculations to determine the actual rate of getting them, but if someone wants, I would be more than willing to try and help collect data. Come on you math wizards, help a girl out? Temple Trekking "drops" is random statistics based on the % completion on each journey. A friend of mine think it's a flat percentage in terms of distribution, so you may have simply gotten lucky as a result. Obviously, without stealing code, there's no way for us to figure out exactly what is what. :P

A hug is all I can give. :P Judging from reactions from botting websites, Jagex do ban bots. However, the ban rate is abysmally slow - slow enough to make little to no difference in every day playing from our perspective. For instance, I've seen the same RCers in W42 for the last three days straight. I think they do get banned at some point, personally, but again, I myself am unaware of the situation at hand, seeing that I avoid high level combat areas like the plague. But I'm gonna guess that it's basically LRC with combat involved, right? The biggest problem that they can't outright use player moderators or staff to ban is that an entire account is on the online. I often have public off because ... well, between people hitting on me and the constant LVLS? OMG U NO ANSWER U MUST BE BOT, I'm sure you can see why. The problem is, being that the behavior is so repetitive in game, you can't really tell me apart from say, a bot, unless they're a level 3 with the name IlIIIIlllllll or something. So, in the end, Jagex may or not be aware of the problem. If they're aware of the problem, they may or not have a way around it. If they have a method, they may or not be deploying it. If they're deploying it, they may or not be doing it in the near future. You see where this is going? Unlike other games, Jagex is quite mysterious about its methodology. We're completely in the dark. So... nothing we could do. Maybe sing Kumbaya if you think it'll help? :P Also, as bad as the P2P bots are, I think the F2P players have it a lot worse. I guess there is something that we could be thankful for?

I know you F2P folks are all, like, ultra-hardcore, but is there something we P2P folks can do to make your lives a bit easier? Or is that interpreted negatively amongst F2P players?

Wait a moment! Is THAT a navel?!?!?!? :blink: Yes, and abs too - see my post on the end of the second page. :P

The large number of bots suggests two things. 1. Many people are interested in what the bots can bring - in this case, levels. Which = prestige = e-peen for 13 yr olds = make botters feel good. 2 Secondary market of gold is strong enough for many to invest in it. See above. A question to consider: What exactly is it about bots that frustrate you? The fact that they're getting stuff for free? The fact that they're leveling faster and thus, "better" than you? It's not fair that you had to "work" hard while the bots don't have to "work?" What you could do is maybe perpetuate a mindset, like the author has suggested, but it's awfully hard to do in a game designed for screaming idiots who go I PK U!!!!!!!!!!111111!!!!!. You could perhaps live in the satisfaction that you may have, I dunno, swayed five people, four of which who will quit or bot behind their mighty, steely mask's back? :P Or you could outcompete them. A bot is running, fundamentally, off of reflections. This means that it should still be slower than a person, no matter how agile it may be. Possibly ignore them. The question then becomes if you're willing to give up efficiency or not, isn't it? Until Jagex does something, you've really exhausted all your options. We can maybe give you a hug or something, but that's about it.

My first reaction was: YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY CLOTHES. Second reaction: Why is Shakespearian hat gender restricted? Pharaoh outfit is cute. I prefer the male version of the hat though. [

Which is why women aren't good at computer games; poor logical reasoning. People are too busy pking real targets to target RCers. Give it a shot. You won't be disappointed.

Look at the trend of modern gaming. Most games are moving onto the iPhone/other mobile platforms. Blockbuster titles are becoming increasingly rare. More and more people (younger people, I might add - RS's target demographic) are getting laptops. Internet is becoming more commonplace. If anything, the fact that Runescape is browser-based only help further its cause. It requires no install. It has few commitments, and honestly, most parents won't ask too much for 6$ a month. The few YA/YAS that plays this game won't bat an eyelash when a generic-coffee-derivative-at-Starbucks probably cost as much. Few other browser-based games can come close to what this unholy brainchild between Skinnerian psychology and classic MMORPG. It IS proven to be addictive, and it's successful because of that reason.

Do you know why college students get into competitive pokemon/dig up their old Runescape accounts/reinstall Baldur's Gate II/have parents mail them their old GBA so they could play Golden Sun II again? Basically. There's a stage in life where we (those of us who don't like to have our bodies destroyed on a weekly basis at the local frat) where nostalgia is hitting us hard. Then we come back, click a few things. Plant a few trees, poke a demon or two, and go on our merry way. There's something about the things you did as a child that is magical, and Runescape is no exception. Considering the condition of F2P... I'd say it's difficult. But this game isn't really a game until you hit P2P. Someone expressed the same frustrations on the help forums too - the only valid methods of moneymaking that is more than 500k an hour is basically through end-game stuff and boss hunting. Skillers are basically menial laborers rather than the tradesmen Jagex (may) have originally envisioned. While I don't personally disagree with the maxed-out-folks being able to make quick money, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it in itself, I can understand why some folks think that the entry barrier is a bit too high. Below contain mostly incoherent personal reflections. Many Java-based browser games (mostly defunct now) towards the early 2000s had remarkably complex systems. They were in turn squished by the "modern" MMOs in their heyday - when grind and prestige mattered most. L2 is one of the most successful examples of these player-driven MMOs with the entire end-game completely determined by player politics and server trends. (And I didn't mean to bash Puzzle Pirates, but I see the kids I babysit play that quite frequently...)

Modern players tend to be spoiled in such ways. Gaming moved from the paradigm of playing for the sake of playing to playing for the sake of accomplishment. This is all fine and good in itself, but for Runescape, the idea of community is unfortunately, a recent one. It's an MMO that for some reason, only put in guilds something like last year. I used to write as a freelance writer for a few gaming websites including MMORPG.com. MMO trends and statistics were interesting to me, once. :) The stuff below is entirely personal opinion supported by a few observations.