Estonia vs. Russia Conflict

[Viktorkrum77]

The most recent of many articles:

 

 

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin has condemned people who "desecrate memorials to war heroes", accusing them of sowing discord between nations.

 

 

 

His comments at a Victory Day commemoration in Red Square appeared to be a continuation of a war of words with Estonia.

 

 

 

Estonia last month moved a Soviet-era war memorial out of the city-centre of the capital, Tallinn.

 

 

 

The move angered ethnic Russians in Estonia, and led to violent clashes.

 

 

 

One person was killed in the disturbances, and hundreds arrested.

 

 

 

The reasons for any war must be sought in the mistakes and miscalculations of peacetime, and their roots are in the ideology of confrontation and extremism

 

Vladimir Putin

 

Many Estonians consider the monument a symbol of the Soviet occupation, which continued for nearly 50 years after World War II, but for Russians it commemorates the Soviet Union's role in the victory over Nazism.

 

 

 

Jet fighters

 

 

 

"The reasons for any war must be sought in the mistakes and miscalculations of peacetime, and their roots are in the ideology of confrontation and extremism," Mr Putin said.

 

 

 

He also warned of "new threats" based on "the same contempt for human life and the same claims of exceptionalism and diktat in the world as in the Third Reich", which correspondents interpreted as a criticism of US unilateral military action.

 

 

 

Soldiers on Red Square

 

One thousand more soldiers took part in 2007, compared with 2006

 

Some 7,000 soldiers marched on Red Square after Mr Putin's speech, and nine jet fighters flew overhead.

 

 

 

Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov inspected the troops in an open Soviet-era Zil limousine.

 

 

 

The Estonian foreign minister has accused the Russian government of orchestrating the disturbances in Tallinn, and paying demonstrators to blockade the Estonian embassy in Moscow.

 

 

 

Russia, for its part, has accused Estonia of "indulging neofascists and inciting extremism".

 

 

 

Auschwitz

 

 

 

In Belarus, President Alexander Lukashenko also criticised Estonia for moving the war monument, and lashed out against Poland too for failing to re-open an exhibition honouring Russian victims of the Auschwitz death camp.

 

 

 

"Acts of mockery of the heroes and victims of war give rise to anger and indignation," he told veterans.

 

 

 

"These include the dismantling of the monument to the liberators in Estonia, and the closure by Polish authorities of the Soviet exhibition at the Auschwitz camp museum."

 

 

 

He referred to Nato interventions in Afghanistan and ex-Yugoslavia as cases of "using war as an instrument of foreign policy".

 

 

 

Here's the sum of things if you don't feel like reading the article (which is one of many). A little while ago, a war memorial known as the Bronze Solider was moved from its place in the center of Tallinn, Estonia to a graveyard outside the city. This angered Estonian Russians, claiming the war memorial showed Russia's help in the ending of the Nazi party. But Estonians see it different. They believe the memorial shows and reflects the harsh realities of Estonia's 50 year occupation by Russia. As a result, protest and riots broke out in Tallinn and the Estonian embassy in Moscow. One person was killed, many injured, and 100's were detained. These included innocent Estonians from kids to adults. Rumor spread about that the detained were being treated badly and unfairly, but Estonia's government denied this. Then a Finnish newspaper published an article that hit a new high, that sparked the movement against the Prime Minister and government known as ESStonia.

 

 

 

So, onto the question I want to ask. Russia's prime minister, Vladimir Putin, is upset with Estonia, and is striking back against this. Estonia's government is claiming the protests, most notably outside the embassy in Moscow, were set up by Putin. Either way, Russia wants power over Estonia, and Estonia wants power over the Russians occupying the country.

 

 

 

My first question is, who do you side with? And my second question is (and this can be taken generally), how do you feel about Putin's actions, should he leave Estonia alone? Should he stand strong for his cause? Etc.

[hohto]

It's just Russia testing how EU and NATO acts when their smallest country gets into any kind of a conflict. The statue is just a lame excuse for them, first of all Russians are the worst ones to judge moving a statue, they even used gravestones as building material on some areas they took from Finland in ww2. Only mistake Estonia did was that they didn't move/destroy this statue 15 years ago when Russia was weak.

 

 

 

Most Estonians don't take Russians as their "freedom givers" like Russians claim they were. The Soviet Union occupied Estonia and with a goverment set by them it became a part of the Soviet Union. Today around 25% of Estonia's population are Russians. Yes, they are russians, not russian speaking Estonians. To get Estonian passport, you need to pass a language test and majority of these haven't bothered to study the language.

 

 

 

I personally give respect to Estonian politicians. They had all the rights to do anything they wanted to a statue which is on their soil and they moved it to a better place and transfered the bones to a graveyard where they belong to. They did it even when their conquerors tried to stop them.

 

 

 

Estonia's a beautiful and economically rising country. Russians managed to cause a huge downfall to it once, but hopefully last time.

[Achilleus]

Im really of late becoming warey of Putin. His "ego" as it were is becoming much bigger than before

 

 

 

 

 

I just hope He can look at the past mistakes of communist russia :pray:

 

 

 

Also there was a article about russia supplying weapons to Sudan the other day :shame:

 

 

 

He is also becoming confrontation with America over their new missile defense system.

 

 

 

Another thing that pissed me off with russia is not allowing russian civilians to be exported (extradited) ...i.e Iam reffering to the Litvenyenko Case were the guy was killed

 

 

 

 

 

If Estonia dont want that in their country..then they can get rid off it......

 

 

 

 

 

I really do think Russia is heading for trouble again

[hohto]

Im really of late becoming warey of Putin. His "ego" as it were is becoming much bigger than before

 

 

 

It has been big for ages, lately he has just turned more against the west. We didn't care when it went for Chechenya, we turned our back when it was for Ukraine and we closed our eyes when it was Georgia.

 

 

 

He is also becoming confrontation with America over their new missile defense system.

 

 

 

I'd be against that too if I was in shoes. Defence is the best attack and that shield is definately made against Russia and in some cases China. No wonder they are against it. However lets keep this topic in Estonia vs Russia conflict :P

 

 

 

Another thing that pissed me off with russia is not allowing russian civilians to be exported (extradited) ...i.e Iam reffering to the Litvenyenko Case were the guy was killed

[hohto]

http://publiuspundit.com/2007/04/photos ... _riots.php

 

 

 

Here's some pictures of Russian teenagers rioting in Tallinn. History repeats itself...

[Viktorkrum77]

Yea, my take is similar. It's Estonia's country, they can do whatever the hell they want with a statue on their property. I think Russia, in a sense, still believes they have power over Estonia, or are undermining it as a country.

 

 

 

But as you said, Russia would be one to talk. Their government acting hypocritical is about as surprising as President Bush messing up ie. not surprising.

 

 

 

However, if I could recommend one thing to Estonia, it would be to get their act together with their policeforce.

 

 

 

*Edit*

 

 

 

Those pictures remind me of (totally off topic) some Katrina victims stealing TV's and such admist a crisis. It's said though, and very hypocritical, and a very sad excuse to steal things. I hope Tallinn can get back up soon enough and carry on.

[StrOwez]

As an Estonian brought up in the Russian parts of the country I tried to not have a biased view yet after pondering over this for a couple of weeks now I came to the conclusion that Russia is right in criticizing Estonian actions.

 

First of all Estonians generally dislike Russians because of the communist era etc, so they try and get at Russia in any way they can, notice how they moved the statue just a week before the 9th of May and they moved it at night without warning anybody.

 

Second of all Russia did lose over 20million men in WWII so that I and you have the privilege of writing this in English instead of German, and we still have a Jewish race. I personally think that this action should be acknowledged in some way, which is a statue of a soldier who gave us that privilege. The Estonian government mocked it by just removing it (cutting it into small peaces ) without even asking anybody; even the mare of Tallinn disagreed with the movement as he could foresee the reaction it would cause. My grandmother was very upset the day they moved it because her husband was involved in getting Germans out of Estonia, and then rebuilding Estonia with new housing and roads etc. DonÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t forget that Russia industrialised it under the communist era.

 

 

 

And victor I seriously donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t think that Russia wants to occupy Estonia; they hardly would have any gain if they did.

 

 

 

They just want their soldiers remembered for the things they did.

[StrOwez]

Yea, my take is similar. It's Estonia's country, they can do whatever the hell they want with a statue on their property. I think Russia, in a sense, still believes they have power over Estonia, or are undermining it as a country.

 

Under the statue are Russian soldiers bones, and I guess Russia has some aspects of power over Estonia since it can just cut off the raw material supplies to it, which I gather it has done to some aspect.

 

I don't think Russia undermines Estonia as a country it's the other way round.

[hohto]

Under the statue are Russian soldiers bones, and I guess Russia has some aspects of power over Estonia since it can just cut off the raw material supplies to it, which I gather it has done to some aspect.

 

I don't think Russia undermines Estonia as a country it's the other way round.

 

 

 

Every intependend country has the right to do anything they want to statues on their area. Also the bones were properly transfered to a graveyard were the rest of their soldiers sleep. Also get your facts right: they did not destroy it, they kept it in 1 piece and just moved it to a better place.

 

 

 

Just a great example how the west should not be too depended on the Russian power. First Ukraine and Georgia, now Estonia.

 

 

 

Also this kind of a conflict doesn't start from a statue. There has been a lot of anti-Estonian spirit living among the Russian teenagers who live in Estonia. It's the same as was with the Mohammed cartoon scandal in Denmark: Just a good excuse to start rioting. Look at that link and those pictures I posted. Those criminals aren't there because of the statue, they are there terrorising a foreign country.

 

 

 

And how can you defend the communist Soviet Union? Heck, Stalin managed to kill 20 million people even before ww2, more than Hitler. With Molotov-Rippentrop contract he was as much guilty for WW2 as Germany. Germany attacked Poland and Soviet Union attacked Finland. The Soviet Union wanted military bases from the baltic countries and Finland: Finland didn't agree and baltic countries agreed. The rest is history: the baltic countries lost their independence for decades, suffered a big economical catastroph and Finland had 2 wars against the Soviet Union.

 

 

 

I totally understand why Russians and the communist time aren't popular in Estonia. In 1930s they were ahead of Finland economically. In early 1990s when they got their intependency again, their economy was pretty much ruined. Thank god our brother nation started its rise fast, tho.

[StrOwez]

To get Estonian passport, you need to pass a language test and majority of these haven't bothered to study the language.

 

 

 

 

Most Russians canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t afford the lesson and the exam fees to pass the test, itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s not that they cant be bothered to study the language.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also this kind of a conflict doesn't start from a statue. There has been a lot of anti-Estonian spirit living among the Russian teenagers who live in Estonia. It's the same as was with the Mohammed cartoon scandal in Denmark: Just a good excuse to start rioting. Look at that link and those pictures I posted. Those criminals aren't there because of the statue, they are there terrorising a foreign country.

From my experience my cousin went rioting with his friends because his grandfather started crying when he watched the news, itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s sad to see but I know two wrongs donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t make a right but when there is protest as passionate as that there will be a minority who take it a step too far and cause criminal damage, but most protests were peaceful itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s press focusing on the minority.

 

Also the bones were properly transfered to a graveyard were the rest of their soldiers sleep. Also get your facts right: they did not destroy it, they kept it in 1 piece and just moved it to a better place.

 

 

Bones are somewhat sacred, I guess you wouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t want your great-grandmothers bones to be dug up and moved? Without your consent? To an apparant better place?

 

 

 

Yes they moved the statue, but they cut it into peaces first because they ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâcouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t move it all at ones.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢

[hohto]

Most Russians canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t afford the lesson and the exam fees to pass the test, itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s not that they cant be bothered to study the language.

 

 

 

 

They have been for 15 years in that country, some even born there. If you can't learn a language in that time it's your own fault. If they want the same rights as the citizens, they should get their passport.

 

 

 

From my experience my cousin went rioting with his friends because his grandfather started crying when he watched the news, itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s sad to see but I know two wrongs donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t make a right but when there is protest as passionate as that there will be a minority who take it a step too far and cause criminal damage, but most protests were peaceful itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s press focusing on the minority.

 

 

 

Pretty big minority as it managed to surround the embassy for a week and destroy the centre in few nights in a row. Same minority probably gave the reports with Putin's mouth... I'd also like to see how many Estonians suffered from a conqueror's statue in the middle of their capital city.

 

 

 

Second, Russians even used Finnish gravestones as building material in some areas (including Porkkala) which they took from us in wars. Talking about respect...

[StrOwez]

They have been for 15 years in that country, some even born there. If you can't learn a language in that time it's your own fault. If they want the same rights as the citizens, they should get their passport.

More like 50 years, some are born there but don't receive the citizenship, and Estonian language has only been introduced recently into all school, workplaces in like 30 years so a generation has been spawn with no Estonian language, their children DO learn Estonian in school.

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty big minority as it managed to surround the embassy for a week and destroy the centre in few nights in a row. Same minority probably gave the reports with Putin's mouth... I'd also like to see how many Estonians suffered from a conqueror's statue in the middle of their capital city.

Well it's a minority of all the Russian people living in Estonia

 

 

 

Second, Russians even used Finnish gravestones as building material in some areas (including Porkkala) which they took from us in wars. Talking about respect...

I know your Finnish, and personally I condem actions like that but this arguement is Estee V Russia, I understand where your coming from.

[Viktorkrum77]

Thank god our brother nation started its rise fast, tho.

 

 

 

Who? Sweden?

[hohto]

More like 50 years, some are born there but don't receive the citizenship, and Estonian language has only been introduced recently into all school, workplaces in like 30 years so a generation has been spawn with no Estonian language, their children DO learn Estonian in school.

 

 

 

Depends how you think it. However 50 years ago no1 had Estonian passport, that's for sure.

 

 

 

Well it's a minority of all the Russian people living in Estonia

 

Still rather huge minority who managed to cause a lot of destruction and if even Kreml accepts it, then there's something wrong.

 

 

 

Who? Sweden?

 

 

 

Duh, Estonia :P

[BlueLancer]

 

 

 

Yeah, Estonia is definitely threatening the russians :lol: A war memorial statue.. What a lame excuse to stir up trouble and put pressure on the ex. USSR block...

 

 

 

The sad thing is Kreml actually supports those teenagers breaking places and robbing Tallinn, the capital, all because a "statue" was removed. Yeah right... If there isn't a deeper reason I'll go jump off a bridge.

[Viktorkrum77]

The sad thing is Kreml actually supports those teenagers breaking places and robbing Tallinn, the capital, all because a "statue" was removed. Yeah right... If there isn't a deeper reason I'll go jump off a bridge.

 

 

 

They just wants to intimidate the Estonian people and government. If they can cause damage, they will.

 

 

 

Question, if all these Russians in Estonia are being treated so badly, why don't they just bloody move back to Russia!? I mean, they must love Russia, after all, they won't assimilate into Estonian culture, so just get out of Estonia, it's pointless living there, go back to your beloved Russia you so heartedly support (by taking advantage and stealing...). I just don't understand what a country that's against you has to offer you, even if they are rich. And if Russia is so bad, why are they supporting it. It seems simple to me, if you don't like it, don't live there.

[StrOwez]

The sad thing is Kreml actually supports those teenagers breaking places and robbing Tallinn, the capital, all because a "statue" was removed. Yeah right... If there isn't a deeper reason I'll go jump off a bridge.

 

 

 

They just wants to intimidate the Estonian people and government. If they can cause damage, they will.

 

 

 

Question, if all these Russians in Estonia are being treated so badly, why don't they just bloody move back to Russia!? I mean, they must love Russia, after all, they won't assimilate into Estonian culture, so just get out of Estonia, it's pointless living there, go back to your beloved Russia you so heartedly support (by taking advantage and stealing...). I just don't understand what a country that's against you has to offer you, even if they are rich. And if Russia is so bad, why are they supporting it. It seems simple to me, if you don't like it, don't live there.

Why donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t they move back? Well people were born there, brought up there, some don't even have a Russian Citizenship and they donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t have an Estonian one either so they have Alien passports with live to remain in Estonia.

 

 

 

Secondly, they have no where to move to, Russia is a huge place and Russia hasn't provided housing etc for the people to move to. The issue is far more complicated than 'if you donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t like it don't live there' Since people can't afford to move or cannot for other reasons.

[dsavi]

I was thinking of posting this myself. Two people had to stay at our house in Finland to get away from the riots... :ohnoes: They were drinking, smashing, drinking, being violent, drinking, throwing rocks, stealing, being loud, scaring the living daylights out of the people that had to stay at our house eventually...

 

 

 

The Estonian police only have to arrest about a thousand more and then they'll have arrested about 0.001% of Estonia lol.

[Tigra00]

What a stupid thing to start trouble over. OH NOES NOT THE WAR HEROES! Guess what? You lost the war. Go hop in a fire.

 

 

 

Also, Russia is too big. I think the only way to solve this is to split Russia into several smaller countries. I'm thinking Russiastan, Brokistan and Commistan. Sound good?

[Achilleus]

Im really of late becoming warey of Putin. His "ego" as it were is becoming much bigger than before

 

Defence is the best attack

 

 

 

 

I thought attack was the best defnse..I guess you can look at it two ways