A little help I need on a treaty.

[Howlin0001]

Well recently Ireland Voted No to the Lisbon treaty but yet countries are still being urged to ratify the treaty even thought there is no way it can be ratified. But when Denmark and France said No to the treaty in 2001 everyone stopped ratifying the treaty. So why is it not being stopped now when Ireland said No?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Who knows? Seriously. We're only informed by what the papers, or politicians with their own agendas tell us.

 

 

 

I doubt anyone on here can realistically answer that question. My interpretation is that all countries must agree to the new Treaty, however, this doesn't stop the EU kicking out members which don't agree to it anyway.

 

 

 

And that is a fundamental part of a Treaty, after all. You win some, you lose some. Deal with the loses, or leave the alliance. That's my interpretation anyway.

[BlueLancer]

To be correct it was France and Holland who originally rejected the EU constitution..

 

 

 

Now it's no longer called the constitution, it's called the "treaty of Lisbon", it's almost exactly the same except with minor modifications: No new official flag/anthem, meaningless things like that.

 

 

 

It's taken long enough to ratify the treaty, every single other government in the EU has ratified/is most likely going to ratify it, but for some reason Ireland decided to hold a public referendum.

 

 

 

Needless to say, after pouring hundreds of millions in it, and years worth of time, they're not backing down this time because a country representing 0.8% of the total EU population decided to vote 53-47% in favour of NO against it. Ireland will just be excluded from the treaty.

[Howlin0001]

To be correct it was France and Holland who originally rejected the EU constitution..

 

 

 

Ireland will just be excluded from the treaty.

 

 

 

Actually it was France and the Netherlands who voted against the treaty in 2005.

 

 

 

but for some reason Ireland decided to hold a public referendum.

 

 

We had to it was going to change our constitution so a referendum had to be held.

 

 

 

It's taken long enough to ratify the treaty, every single other government in the EU has ratified/is most likely going to ratify it,

 

Needless to say, after pouring hundreds of millions in it, and years worth of time, they're not backing down this time because a country representing 0.8% of the total EU population decided to vote 53-47% in favour of NO against it.

 

 

 

I think it passed a No vote for a few reasons.

 

#1. Most who said No said it not because they were against the treaty but because they didn't understand what it was about(When in doubt, vote no).

 

#2. Yes granted we had enough time to prepare the country about it but most of that was taken up by Bertie's Court hearing and that.

 

#3. Both Yes and No camps(I think the No camp did it more then the Yes) said stuff that wasn't in the treaty(or if it was it was blown way out of proportion)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can they actually kick Ireland out of the EU if they wanted to(I know they never kicked anyone out before)?

[BlueLancer]

They'd never kick Ireland out of EU nor do they have any intention of doing so. They'll just have political setbacks because of this, their influence over decisions in EU will be lower, and obviously they'll be excluded from decision-making that affects all Lisbon treaty countries.

[Howlin0001]

But I thought there was no legal way to implement the treaty unless all the countries vote yes?

 

 

 

But also is there anything stopping countries from implementing some parts of the treaty themselves?

[RichieMcD]

My guess is the EU just doesn't care for Ireland considering we're not even 1% of the EU population.

 

 

 

The Irish government [bleep]ed up greatly when it comes to the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish public were told next to nothing about, it seemed the only people who were even making a effort to educate people on it were Sinn Fein and the Socialist party (both voting no). So essentially a huge amount of people didn't know anything about it and voted No.

[Ginger_Warrior]

My guess is the EU just doesn't care for Ireland considering we're not even 1% of the EU population.

 

 

 

The Irish government [bleep] up greatly when it comes to the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish public were told next to nothing about, it seemed the only people who were even making a effort to educate people on it were Sinn Fein and the Socialist party (both voting no). So essentially a huge amount of people didn't know anything about it and voted No.

 

Exactly why there should never have been a referendum in the first place, and why there shouldn't be one in Britain.

[Howlin0001]

My guess is the EU just doesn't care for Ireland considering we're not even 1% of the EU population.

 

 

 

The Irish government [bleep] up greatly when it comes to the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish public were told next to nothing about, it seemed the only people who were even making a effort to educate people on it were Sinn Fein and the Socialist party (both voting no). So essentially a huge amount of people didn't know anything about it and voted No.

 

Exactly why there should never have been a referendum in the first place, and why there shouldn't be one in Britain.

 

 

 

Ireland had to have one because it was going to affect our constitution, but I think the treaty don't affect Britain's constitution, there doing it cause they want to.

[Will H]

What I don't get is why they didn't allow a simplified version of this 'Treaty' so the public can understand and support/oppose it. It sounds like they don't want us to be in the know and that's why so many of the public don't want to support it. It's like signing a contract blindfolded. Even worse is the fact that we're not allowed a referendum so we're forced to sign a contract blindfolded.

 

 

 

Seriously, does this Lisbon treaty have something to hide? If yes, simplify it so the public knows about it like they should. Of no, simplify it so the public is aware that it has nothing to hide!

[Howlin0001]

I think I read somewhere the EU decided to let the governments do it and not have a vote in public in case if countries do say No. Evidently Ireland did so they don't know what to do now. But there giving us till October(?) to decide what were going to do.

[Carl]

There was a stronger NO vote as the public were very badly informed. There were things that Political parties were saying that weren't even on the treaty.

 

 

 

For example, they said we would loose our neutrality. This really played a big part as welll.

 

 

 

Supposidly the other EU members can't go ahead with the treaty as it says that all 27 members must agree.

 

 

 

And yes, Brian Cowen has till October.

[Howlin0001]

In my opinion what stopped us from knowing more about the treaty was Bertie's money deals and that.

[Carl]

In my opinion what stopped us from knowing more about the treaty was Bertie's money deals and that.

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, they blew that whole thing out of proportion, why have a go at the guy? And they're still doing it. It's just a stupid way for the politicians to get paid more.

[Satenza]

Typical EU, if most other countries ratify the treaty then they can go back to Ireland with some aesthetically credible justification and can ask them to vote again after tweaking a few minor details and throwing propaganda at the voters.

[Carl]

I think we will be voting again, you can't really call it a democracy if we can only choose yes :?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Typical EU, if most other countries ratify the treaty then they can go back to Ireland with some aesthetically credible justification and can ask them to vote again after tweaking a few minor details and throwing propaganda at the voters.

 

Propaganda? As opposed to the blatant lies that some of the Eurosceptics spin around?

 

 

 

See, here's a difficult situation. What is Democracy here? What if, in total, the majority of Europeans actually agree with the new Treaty, but a majority in some countries such as Ireland and the UK (which make up a minority of the EU overall) refuse to accept it? Surely, it should be the majority of Europeans overall that decide whether or not the new European Treaty is worth putting into place, not a majority of those living in a few conservative countries.

 

 

 

The fact is this - only those who vehemently oppose this Treaty care about this whole referendum thing. The rest of us are perfectly happy letting the people we've voted to represent us make that decision on our behalf.

[Howlin0001]

Typical EU, if most other countries ratify the treaty then they can go back to Ireland with some aesthetically credible justification and can ask them to vote again after tweaking a few minor details and throwing propaganda at the voters.

 

Propaganda? As opposed to the blatant lies that some of the Eurosceptics spin around?

 

 

 

See, here's a difficult situation. What is Democracy here? What if, in total, the majority of Europeans actually agree with the new Treaty, but a majority in some countries such as Ireland and the UK (which make up a minority of the EU overall) refuse to accept it? Surely, it should be the majority of Europeans overall that decide whether or not the new European Treaty is worth putting into place, not a majority of those living in a few conservative countries.

 

 

 

The fact is this - only those who vehemently oppose this Treaty care about this whole referendum thing. The rest of us are perfectly happy letting the people we've voted to represent us make that decision on our behalf.

 

Yes but can you be sure that other countries would of still said Yes if it was put to a vote and the people actually know what there been gotten into?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Typical EU, if most other countries ratify the treaty then they can go back to Ireland with some aesthetically credible justification and can ask them to vote again after tweaking a few minor details and throwing propaganda at the voters.

 

Propaganda? As opposed to the blatant lies that some of the Eurosceptics spin around?

 

 

 

See, here's a difficult situation. What is Democracy here? What if, in total, the majority of Europeans actually agree with the new Treaty, but a majority in some countries such as Ireland and the UK (which make up a minority of the EU overall) refuse to accept it? Surely, it should be the majority of Europeans overall that decide whether or not the new European Treaty is worth putting into place, not a majority of those living in a few conservative countries.

 

 

 

The fact is this - only those who vehemently oppose this Treaty care about this whole referendum thing. The rest of us are perfectly happy letting the people we've voted to represent us make that decision on our behalf.

 

Yes but can you be sure that other countries would of still said Yes if it was put to a vote and the people actually know what there been gotten into?

 

Of course I can't, but the majority of people cannot understand such complicated constitutional affairs. They would never be able to know what they're getting themselves into, except whatever's being fed to them (truth or otherwise) through the media, which itself is usually anti-European.

 

 

 

Hence why we vote people to make such decisions for us. Any Treaty has to be agreed to in the House of Commons (I realise that's not the case for Ireland, but talking from a British point of view). We live in a representative democracy. If the majority of representatives agree to the Treaty, then it should be taken that the country overall agrees with it on balance. That's democracy in this country - we have absolutely no right to a plebiscite, and never have done for this exact reason.

 

 

 

To put some sort of context, I'm sure if given a vote, the majority of people would want there to be no taxation. It doesn't make it a good idea.

[Carl]

Typical EU, if most other countries ratify the treaty then they can go back to Ireland with some aesthetically credible justification and can ask them to vote again after tweaking a few minor details and throwing propaganda at the voters.

 

Propaganda? As opposed to the blatant lies that some of the Eurosceptics spin around?

 

 

 

See, here's a difficult situation. What is Democracy here? What if, in total, the majority of Europeans actually agree with the new Treaty, but a majority in some countries such as Ireland and the UK (which make up a minority of the EU overall) refuse to accept it? Surely, it should be the majority of Europeans overall that decide whether or not the new European Treaty is worth putting into place, not a majority of those living in a few conservative countries.

 

 

 

The fact is this - only those who vehemently oppose this Treaty care about this whole referendum thing. The rest of us are perfectly happy letting the people we've voted to represent us make that decision on our behalf.

 

 

 

The majority of the EU do agree with it but it says in the treaty that all 27 memers must agree for it to be put in place if I remember correctly.

 

 

 

That's why we will be voting again, we have to. This time the public will be told what the treaty is, how it will affect us etc. For the sake of us, I hope it's no again.

[Howlin0001]

 

This time the public will be told what the treaty is, how it will affect us etc. For the sake of us, I hope it's no again.

 

 

 

So your one of the few(well very few) who read/knows the treaty and understands it 100% and your still saying No?

[Carl]

 

This time the public will be told what the treaty is, how it will affect us etc. For the sake of us, I hope it's no again.

 

 

 

So your one of the few(well very few) who read/knows the treaty and understands it 100% and your still saying No?

 

 

 

Yes, very much so. I'm siding with Sinn Féin on this one.

[Ginger_Warrior]

 

This time the public will be told what the treaty is, how it will affect us etc. For the sake of us, I hope it's no again.

 

 

 

So your one of the few(well very few) who read/knows the treaty and understands it 100% and your still saying No?

 

 

 

Yes, very much so. I'm siding with Sinn Féin on this one.

 

So, you've actually read the full document then? The question was have you read it, not who you agree with.

[dusqi]

simplify it so the public is aware that it has nothing to hide!

 

 

 

Not everything can be simplified down to the reading age of a 7 year old (the average reading age).

[l0l0lpur32]

I support the existance of the EU, but the lisbon treaty (EU constitution under a new name) should've never even being made. When the constitution was rejected, the direction the EU is going in should've be re-thought rather than just re-wording it and changing the name. Trying to force it through without referendums will just stir up more anti-EU feelings, it's obvious by that out of the 5 times this proposal has being put to referendum it has being rejected 3 times (Ireland, France, the Netherlands) that people aren't happy with the direction the EU is going in.

 

 

 

Oh and the "there shouldn't be a referendum because people won't understand it" stuff is elitist rubbish