Suicide (Statistics, Philosophy, etc)

[Laura]

I see. In that case, happiness cannot always be easily obtained. Summarizing you statement or so I think, I do agree. Suicide based on a grim misfortune or single, or even multiple, encounters of unhappiness, can be seen as an irrational or impulse decision; a final solution to temporary problem. That still doesn't mean that it wasn't justified by that person's morals or standards.

[Zierro]

That still doesn't mean that it wasn't justified by that person's morals or standards.

 

 

 

That is true. Reasons for wanting to commit suicide are always subjective, but I can relate to this scenario and I have to say that my problem was that I was unhappy and assumed that life was never going to change. Without getting too personal, I was lonely and thought since I have always been lonely that I will always be lonely. I was wrong. I found the girl of my dreams and now I'm as happy as can be. Cheesy, I know, but it goes to show that you just have to wait and happiness will usually come.

 

 

 

So while it might be justified in their mind at the time, they still don't know what the tide will bring in the next day. So decisions of that type shouldn't be made when making negative assumptions about what you think the future will be like because you can always be wrong.

[Madmanpur3]

The whole suicide debate is tricky, and pretty much impossible for either side to win. My views on life are that we should all work towards bettering the world and helping others, while focusing less on ourselves. Someone else's views on life might be that it's just some accident and none of it matters in the end, so live life like there's no tomorrow and try and have as much fun and do as many things as possible. Yet another's view on life might be similar in that it's all an accident and none of it matters in the end, but they figure why bother living a pointless life, and it doesn't matter if those who were close to them grieve over their death because it all won't have any meaning or significance in the end.

 

 

 

My views give my justifications as to why I'm against suicide, and the last hypothetical views give justifications as to why there's nothing wrong with suicide. However, I still don't know of any justifications for committing suicide as a result of negative emotions.

[Shinjula]

The problem is that there are so many different reasons and circumstances where suicide is contemplated. We can't hope to discuss them all but the way the conversation is going it is being implied that only certain sorts of circumstances exist, i.e. those where depression is contained in small doses due to single or multiple events and where the depressed person will get better. This is certainly not the case.

 

 

 

There are a large number of people who have to deal with depression throughout their lives, not just for short periods of time. these are not people for whom it will eventually get better.

 

 

 

These are the people we are talking about for whom we are suggesting suicide may be a rational option.

 

 

 

If you focus only on people who are suffering from short term depression, sure you wont have any complaints from most of us for suggesting there are better alternatives. But when you suffer from it for 5 days out of every 7 and even your doctor tells you that you will almost certainly suffer it for the rest of your life and that you need to develop coping strategies to do so which you will have to use against your struggle every day, then I see no problem with someone who rationally decides that the benefits do not outweigh the negatives.

 

 

 

Lumping every person with depression in the same category of short term depression and insisting that there are ways out for them is not a correct reading of the situation, neither are the people actually in that category the ones we are talking about, in terms of suicide being an option, especially since they are also much much less likely to be the ones commiting suicide. Suicide is rarely a factor in short term depression, so can we please include that piece of knowledge in our discussions.

[Zierro]

There are two problems I have with that:

 

 

 

1.) You can't predict the future so you can't say that you know things will definitely not get better.

 

2.) Even if things that you yearn for do not make you happy, then your standards are too high and you need to take a more optimistic perspective on life.

 

 

 

1.) How is it possible to know whether it will get better or not? I certainly didn't think my life would get any better, but I was wrong. The only way to find out would be to keep living. If we're talking about the awaiting of a certain stimulus (I want to get a job) then we're speaking of depression where assumptions are made that the future won't change anything. There are two options that every human being has. You can either assume that the stimulus will not appear in the future which is one of the main causes for suicide, or you can assume that the stimulus will appear in the future. It kind of reminds me of Pascal's Wager except with no strings attached.

 

 

 

The first option will not bring you happiness. It will bring your suicide drive up (If you commit suicide, then you definitely won't be happy.) and it will also impair your ability to strive for reaching that stimulus (What's the point of trying for a job? I'm not gonna get one anyways).

 

 

 

The second option has a chance of bringing you happiness. It will make you feel less hopeless bringing your suicide drive down and it can also work as an encouragement to try to reach that stimulus (It's just a matter of time until I get that job, so I should apply to every place that looks interesting).

 

 

 

2.) If you live 5 out of 7 days being depressed then you're probably talking about chronic-depression, something which can be medically treated. I've been around people with this, one of which attempted suicide several times... someone very important to me too. The problem that I saw surfacing was nothing more than pessimism. Sure, you can blame it on the chemicals in your brain but they cannot control whether you see the glass half full or half empty - they only compel you to see it as half empty, which denotes that there is still hope.

 

 

 

If you live 5 out of 7 days being depressed and you don't live in Africa where there is barely any food, water, or shelter and where disease and orphanages are common, then you probably have a some good reasons to smile which you need to put more attention on and appreciate. If happiness doesn't find you, then you need to find happiness. Like I said, the problem that surfaces with this type of diagnosis is always the same. It's making a molehill out of an anthill because that's what your brain naturally wants to do - but it doesn't mean you can't change that. Tons and tons of people altered their mentalities into more positive ones so it is definitely possible.

 

 

 

I don't have a disorder like that, but I was definitely pessimistic about many things in life. I learned to realize that I didn't want to live that way so I changed my perspective on things a bit and now I can even see something as tragic as death in a more positive light. (Without death, we'd be flooded with people and our resources would run out quick.) I wasn't too fond of my parents either, but since happiness is nothing more than a perception I learned how to be happy about them and appreciate them. It is something you do have control over, and giving people the impression that they don't only augments the problem. If someone like me can do it then I don't see why anyone else can't.

[Shinjula]

The main gist of that seems to be a belief that because they got better for you they must be able to get better for everyone and thats just not true, particularly since you have just said you didnt actually have chronic depression, and chronic depression is precisely what we are talking about, only a tiny proportion of suicides are from people who dont have chronic depression. You're basing your evidence for your standpoint purely on the feeling of a single individual (i.e. yourself), just because you can do it, everybody else must subscribe to the same responsibility because as far as you are concerned they have the same ability.

 

 

 

Well thats just bogus, we dont all have the same ability to cope with our lives. Its really obvious when you think about it.

 

 

 

And again because its simply getting ignored, there are many many people who will end up depressed fro the whole of their life, I dont know why you find this difficult to believe, but it really is true. You may not be able to predict the future but can extrapolate, if you have had thirty years of depression it is very very likely that you will continue to have depression for the rest of your life. Second thing to back this up, in the cases where this is true your Doctor will tell you that you will have to deal with it for the rest of your life, and as for anti depressants, talking therapies they are not cure-alls and in many case do not help sufficiently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the argument that we arent living in Africa therefore haven't got any good reason to feel depressed, according to that logic, since I've seen Africans living in the most terrible conditions being happy and living their life to the full I must therefore be at least that happy and I should be happier. Any suffering any westerner might feel at the death of a spouse or a parent is miniscule in comparison to what they go through therefore is inconsequential and we should not allow anyone to feel any negative emotions at all and should look down on any who do so...?

 

 

 

It ends up in nonsense, we all have feelings and our feelings are not comparable to anyone else's feelings, all feelings are subjective and cannot be weighed directly against the feelings of another, particularly when they are from such diverse cultures.

[Zierro]

The main gist of that seems to be a belief that because they got better for you they must be able to get better for everyone and thats just not true, particularly since you have just said you didnt actually have chronic depression, and chronic depression is precisely what we are talking about, only a tiny proportion of suicides are from people who dont have chronic depression.

 

 

 

Like I said, if we're talking about chronic depression then that is something which has clinical treatments to help alleviate their depression. Untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide. http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:yjremePJ16oJ:www.suicide.org/suicide-causes.html+most+common+cause+of+suicide&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

 

 

You're basing your evidence for your standpoint purely on the feeling of a single individual (i.e. yourself), just because you can do it, everybody else must subscribe to the same responsibility because as far as you are concerned they have the same ability.

 

 

 

My personal story isn't my argument - it's support for my argument. And it did not only happen to one single individual. There have been millions and millions of people who have done the same thing as me.

 

 

 

Well thats just bogus, we dont all have the same ability to cope with our lives. Its really obvious when you think about it.

 

 

 

I'm curious about what's making you think that the transition from pessimism to optimism is impossible. I've provided reasons why it is possible, and you've done nothing but decline my reasonings without providing any of your own.

 

 

 

And again because its simply getting ignored, there are many many people who will end up depressed fro the whole of their life, I dont know why you find this difficult to believe, but it really is true.

 

 

 

I have an idea that it might be because of people like you put it into their heads that they can't get better, so they don't even try then. Why in your right mind do you want to make depressed people feel even more hopeless? Seriously.

 

 

 

You may not be able to predict the future but can extrapolate, if you have had thirty years of depression it is very very likely that you will continue to have depression for the rest of your life.

 

 

 

Well that speaks for itself, because extrapolations can be wrong. You're really not doing anything but repeating what I've responded to.

 

 

 

Second thing to back this up, in the cases where this is true your Doctor will tell you that you will have to deal with it for the rest of your life, and as for anti depressants, talking therapies they are not cure-alls and in many case do not help sufficiently.

 

 

 

That's where your own choices come in. Like I said:

 

 

 

"Sure, you can blame it on the chemicals in your brain but they cannot control whether you see the glass half full or half empty - they only compel you to see it as half empty, which denotes that there is still hope."

 

 

 

As for the argument that we arent living in Africa therefore haven't got any good reason to feel depressed, according to that logic, since I've seen Africans living in the most terrible conditions being happy and living their life to the full I must therefore be at least that happy and I should be happier. Any suffering any westerner might feel at the death of a spouse or a parent is miniscule in comparison to what they go through therefore is inconsequential and we should not allow anyone to feel any negative emotions at all and should look down on any who do so...?

 

 

 

Yummy strawman. I didn't say that. What I did say is, unless your life has been stripped of the bare necessities, then you should have good things in your life that you can focus on.

[Shinjula]

Ok this is a getting a bit bitty so first I'll try and respond to the direct questions youve asked me rather than responses to my responses to your responses etc etc.

 

 

 

I'm curious about what's making you think that the transition from pessimism to optimism is impossible. I've provided reasons why it is possible, and you've done nothing but decline my reasonings without providing any of your own.

 

Because the stats say it is so. A quick check on the net shows there are 10 million people in america with long term depression, 80-90% of them are successfully treated (which is great), that leaves a million people with long term depression who are not able to be treated medically. [http]

 

 

 

I have an idea that it might be because of people like you put it into their heads that they can't get better, so they don't even try then. Why in your right mind do you want to make depressed people feel even more hopeless? Seriously.

 

Except that I am talking to you, not to them, this is not the way I would approach them. This is a debate about suicide, this is not a counselling session.

 

 

 

And just a quick

 

Yummy strawman. I didn't say that. What I did say is, unless your life has been stripped of the bare necessities, then you should have good things in your life that you can focus on.

 

response, to say its not a strawman, i just didnt get what you meant, as comparing peoples feelings to those in Africa is a very common tactic when responding to suicide, so thats what I thought you were doing. Usually in these cases the bare necessities are not actually being met, because one of the bare necessities is socialisation. And when survival needs arent being met its almost impossible to examine any part of your life rationally.

[Zierro]

Because the stats say it is so. A quick check on the net shows there are 10 million people in america with long term depression, 80-90% of them are successfully treated (which is great), that leaves a million people with long term depression who are not able to be treated medically.

 

 

 

That problem has to do with how doctors aren't perfect. Not every operation has been successful, but that doesn't render the problem as "unfixable", it just means it hasn't been fixed.

 

 

 

Except that I am talking to you, not to them, this is not the way I would approach them. This is a debate about suicide, this is not a counselling session.

 

 

 

So you would lie to them?

[Guest]

There are ways to get over things, suicide shouldn't be one of them. Of course, if you can't walk, move or do anything, then we have an exception. Life is a gift, and no matter how bad it may seem there is always going to be a better way to fix problems. Almost everyone who attempts (and fails) to commit suicide is glad that they did have the good luck to not kill themselves. Nevermind the consequences on family.

[Shinjula]

So you would lie to them?

 

Generally I dont need to, but just because of the way you've asked the question, yes absolutely. I'll happily lie whenever it provides the best outcome.

 

 

 

But generally most people who are actually in the situation I'm talking about would not be likely to talk to anyone about these things. On the rare times it does crop up I will usually spend the conversation getting them to talk about whatever they want to talk about however depressing without making any judgements at all, because as far as I'm aware that is the best thing for an untrained person to do in that situation.

[Zierro]

I'll happily lie whenever it provides the best outcome.

 

 

 

Then you agree that suicide is not the best outcome.

[Shinjula]

I'll happily lie whenever it provides the best outcome.

 

Then you agree that suicide is not the best outcome.

 

I'm sorry this isnt a logic game, there are multiple possibilities were dealing with here it isnt just an on off state diagram.

 

I cannot know what the best outcome for someone is. I will try and suggest that they might be happier off alive for the first half of a conversation, because its the default position to start from, but if someone tells me their life is unbearable and they want to end it I will have no problem with them for having done so. And if they are someone whom I'm very close to I will grieve, but I wont insist that they continue with a life they hate just for my own selfish ends.

 

 

 

I said I would lie to people because its important in this sort of debate for you to know that I hold no particular value to the truth. I tend not to do it 99% of the time simply because it isnt neccessary.

 

 

 

If you insist in looking it as a logic diagram then the flaw in your logic is that I am not implying that suicide is ALWAYS the BEST option, sometimes when I think it might not be a useful outcome I may choose to lie, that doesnt mean I would lie if I thought it was a decent option.

[Zierro]

How would you manage to categorize the people who you think have hope and the people you think have no hope though?

[Laura]

How would you manage to categorize the people who you think have hope and the people you think have no hope though?

It's not an exact science, which is why people have discrepancies with psychology. You shouldn't be the one categorizing them because it's their rationalization, not yours (without reference to anyone). In any case many signs should appear obvious. For example, the man who just found out that his girlfriend was cheating on him. Is that, or should that bring up suicide? Most likely not, though again, that's not your rationalization. Rather, it's those who feel that their experience of life is a downturn which is something you cannot solve without death. This is usually caused by a series of misfortunes or experiences over a long period of time.

[Zierro]

This is usually caused by a series of misfortunes or experiences over a long period of time.

 

 

 

If that were the case then I'd agree. If your life truly is hopeless, such as not having food, water, family, shelter, good health, etc. then that means life really is a struggle and I think suicide is justifiable. But when we're talking about people with chronic depression - people who are sad even when good things happen - then all that is needed is a turnaround in their mentality.

 

 

 

In other words, if life is a big struggle, suicide I think suicide is okay because it's just a means of speeding up the process. But if happiness is the struggle, then there is no need for suicide - there is a need for optimism.

[Shinjula]

How would you manage to categorize the people who you think have hope and the people you think have no hope though?

It's not an exact science, which is why people have discrepancies with psychology. You shouldn't be the one categorizing them because it's their rationalization, not yours (without reference to anyone). In any case many signs should appear obvious. For example, the man who just found out that his girlfriend was cheating on him. Is that, or should that bring up suicide? Most likely not, though again, that's not your rationalization. Rather, it's those who feel that their experience of life is a downturn which is something you cannot solve without death. This is usually caused by a series of misfortunes or experiences over a long period of time.

 

Exactly, its up to them to categorise themselves, so my best choice is to ask them themselves

[Shinjula]

This is usually caused by a series of misfortunes or experiences over a long period of time.

 

 

 

If that were the case then I'd agree. If your life truly is hopeless, such as not having food, water, family, shelter, good health, etc. then that means life really is a struggle and I think suicide is justifiable. But when we're talking about people with chronic depression - people who are sad even when good things happen - then all that is needed is a turnaround in their mentality.

 

 

 

In other words, if life is a big struggle, suicide I think suicide is okay because it's just a means of speeding up the process. But if happiness is the struggle, then there is no need for suicide - there is a need for optimism.

 

But you are talking about the mind as though the conscious parts are the only thing thats is happening, that its all perfectly under our control all we have to do is to think about it and itll go away, and everything in psychology and neuroscience disagrees with you

[Laura]

This is usually caused by a series of misfortunes or experiences over a long period of time.

 

 

 

If that were the case then I'd agree. If your life truly is hopeless, such as not having food, water, family, shelter, good health, etc. then that means life really is a struggle and I think suicide is justifiable. But when we're talking about people with chronic depression - people who are sad even when good things happen - then all that is needed is a turnaround in their mentality.

 

 

 

In other words, if life is a big struggle, suicide I think suicide is okay because it's just a means of speeding up the process. But if happiness is the struggle, then there is no need for suicide - there is a need for optimism.

It's not always that easy though. This type of thinking becomes embedded and is essentially a lifestyle for these people.

[Zierro]

Exactly, its up to them to categorise themselves, so my best choice is to ask them themselves

 

 

 

That doesn't make sense. You're gonna ask suicidal people if they are hopeless vs hopeful? If they're suicidal they're going to be hopeless. They go hand in hand.

 

 

 

But you are talking about the mind as though the conscious parts are the only thing thats is happening, that its all perfectly under our control all we have to do is to think about it and itll go away, and everything in psychology and neuroscience disagrees with you

 

 

 

Anti-suicide organizations, the court, and freewill disagree with you. Like I said about three times, your brain chemicals compel you to do things - they don't control you. If it were true that you had absolute no control, then people with mental disorders wouldn't go to jail for committing murder - as they had "no control" over what they done.

 

 

 

It's not always that easy though. This type of thinking becomes embedded and is essentially a lifestyle for these people.

 

 

 

You're right. It isn't an easy task, but it's still possible and worth giving a shot.

[Shinjula]

Anti-suicide organizations, the court, and freewill disagree with you.

 

The court doesnt disagree with me otherwise there would be no defence of insanity. Freewill doesnt disagree with me because its always constantly debated against determinacy. I would like to see your citation that Anti suicide organisations disargee with me.

[Zierro]

The court doesnt disagree with me otherwise there would be no defence of insanity.

 

 

 

Insanity is a legal concept, not a psychiatric concept of mental illness. Whether a person has a diagnosed mental disorder is not sufficient reason, from the court's point of view, to relieve them from all responsibility for illegal acts they may commit.

 

 

 

At the most, defense of insanity implies that their actions were justified and do not deserve punishment - not that the actions were totally inevitable.

 

 

 

Freewill doesnt disagree with me because its always constantly debated against determinacy.

 

 

 

Unless you're an advocate for determinacy yourself, I don't see how that holds any water. That's like saying, "God is not real because there are atheists." One party will be right - the existence of each other doesn't nullify the other's arguments. And technically speaking, even if you do believe in determinacy, freewill still does disagree with you. :lol:

 

 

 

I would like to see your citation that Anti suicide organisations disargee with me.

 

 

 

Is that really necessary? Why would they even exist if they knew there was no hope for their patients?

[Shinjula]

Thats a whole bunch of hot air, I reckon. I could be wrong but I seriusly doubt you believe that. There is tonnes of evidence that we are not solely creatures of conscious thought, that there are subconscious and unconscious parts to all our lives. Bear in mind in no way have I suggested that we dont have any free will, but it is not as you suggest the only part of us and I'm sure you know that.

 

 

 

[i could easily argue against each individual part of the above but i see it as friutless and just turns the argument bitty again as it did above so I chose to argue against it as a whole ,I also think its losing focus on the whole point if the debate]

 

 

 

I also noticed youve replaced what I've stated with a massively paraphrased version of your own, the statement I made which you said Anti suicide disagreed with was "But you are talking about the mind as though the conscious parts are the only thing thats is happening, that its all perfectly under our control all we have to do is to think about it and itll go away, and everything in psychology and neuroscience disagrees with you" which is very different to "There is no hope for people wanting suicide". Just because the subconscious exists doesnt mean that there is no hope, just less hope. You seem to be getting very bogged down in extreme cases, the world is not black and white.

[Zierro]

Thats a whole bunch of hot air, I reckon. I could be wrong but I seriusly doubt you believe that. There is tonnes of evidence that we are not solely creatures of conscious thought, that there are subconscious and unconscious parts to all our lives. Bear in mind in no way have I suggested that we dont have any free will, but it is not as you suggest the only part of us and I'm sure you know that.

 

 

 

When did I say it was the only part of us. I'm pretty sure bringing up the fact that our brain chemicals (and our environment) compel us to act in a certain way suggests quite the opposite.

[killerbeer0]

Exactly, its up to them to categorise themselves, so my best choice is to ask them themselves

 

 

 

That doesn't make sense. You're gonna ask suicidal people if they are hopeless vs hopeful? If they're suicidal they're going to be hopeless. They go hand in hand.

 

 

 

I might be "hopeful" but a large part of me just wants out of the now. I need to run from myself and cannot, suicide is a way out. Permanent sure, but at what point does one stop caring?