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National Healthcare. What do you think of it?


Hawks

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It was about freedom, really? Why was slavery still legal in most US states for a good few decades after the constitution was written? I think this whole "America was founded on freedom" idea is a pretty weak argument myself :lol:

 

 

 

It was founded on freedom. Whether or not the country has been consistent with freedom is a different story.

 

 

 

It was not founded on porgressive income taxes, nationalized healthcare, banning substances. it was about freedom. remember that. And as much financial freedom as religios.

 

 

 

Be careful with using the term "financial freedom". Scamming is a form of that.

 

 

 

I think we should have freedom. Freedom with religion, freedom with substances, freedom with saying what you want. However, the saying goes, "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". The right to life is just as important as the right to liberty in America. Turns out America was founded on nationalized health care, as well as freedom. Hmmm...

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Because prisons are places necessary to our country. Though if possible, the prisoners should have to work to at least to take a part of the cost.

 

 

 

There are certain justifiable uses of taxes. Firemen, police, military, roads, etc. Those are all things included in the US constitution and are part of living here. That was what our country was founded on.

 

 

 

It was not founded on porgressive income taxes, nationalized healthcare, banning substances. it was about freedom. remember that. And as much financial freedom as religios.

 

 

 

As for being founded with terrible religious controls and stuff. I know. Don't criticize me on that. It was bad.

 

 

 

And if she can't afford to take care of herself in every way needed, than she needs to be doing something else or something more.

 

Who cares about "the constitution", it's a document written like 230 years ago? You can't use a document written in the mid-1700s to run a 2009 society - you'll be quoting the bible next I assume? It was about freedom, really? Why was slavery still legal in most US states for a good few decades after the constitution was written? I think this whole "America was founded on freedom" idea is a pretty weak argument myself :lol:

 

 

 

I'm gonna assume you're either really naive or were born with a silver spoon in your mouth for that "needs to be doing something else or something more" comment - the idea that "anyone can get a good job/career if they they try hard and pull themself up" isn't quite that simple, shown by statistics on social mobility. what about people who were born with mental/physical disabilities, how are they meant to "Pull themself up", change their genes somehow? also some people simply don't have the people skills/intelligence required for high salaries - do they deserve to just die if they fall ill?

 

 

 

The profit motive is good for a lot of industries, but healthcare just simply isn't one of them.

 

 

 

The Constitution is brilliant. If it were enforced to it's exact letter, than it would be so simple and work so well it would hardly need changing. As far as slaves, well, people didn't really follow the constitution did they? They're totally screwed it up. It's the people that mess those things up.

 

 

 

But fine, if we want to go into that, how about some simple enforcement of the Magna Carta?

 

 

 

And no profit motive for health insurance? Hell yes it should. It would make them have to work for the money. If you removed the government influence, and the power they use, it could actually work. It's all one big corrupt affair.

 

 

 

And my biggest problem probably isn't even the government healthcare. it's the fact they want to *force* me to pay for healthcare. If their proposals went through the way they wanted, I would be legally obligated to get health insurance.

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I hate the idea that a man who makes $13,000 a year can be rushed to the hospital with the same cardiac arrest as any CEO and receive the same treatment for it. One of the two has worked harder in his life, and deserves what he wants to pay for.

 

What exactly makes the man on $13k a year's life any less valuable? What if he was born into a poor family in a very impoverished area and he had to get a job straight out of school to support his mother, and there was no possible financial way for him to try and get some qualifications to "pull himself up"? And the CEO would more than likely have private healthcare anyway - all universal healthcare does is provide a certain level of care to everyone, not ban people from paying for better healthcare if they want to.

 

 

 

Don't you support eugenics anyway? So it's no surprise that you value people's lives based upon how high of a salary they earn.

 

 

 

edit: oh yeah, you do support eugenics: viewtopic.php?p=6724268#p6724268 - you're an ignorant [puncture] with no respect for human life to be honest, all you care about is "resources" and "money".

 

I agree, Robert is either the world's best troll or a [bleep] [developmentally delayed] 14 year old who thinks life should be fair.

 

 

 

Isn't it the people who think life should be fair the ones who push for Nationalized healthcare?

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I hate the idea that a man who makes $13,000 a year can be rushed to the hospital with the same cardiac arrest as any CEO and receive the same treatment for it. One of the two has worked harder in his life, and deserves what he wants to pay for.

 

 

 

This is where I disagree.

 

 

 

You blow your own trumpet, touting yourself as a economist etcetera. You should know that healthcare is a collective non excludable good. Just like parks, roads and signals.

 

 

 

If it were left upto you, streetlights would be coin-operated. That's not how it works. The marginal cost of supply will always be nil. You can't change that.

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I'm staying out of these topics. Too many liberals with whom I'd only be arguing. The only person even being close to my side being Robert, and he isn't exactly a great ally for lack of a better term.

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I'm staying out of these topics. Too many liberals with whom I'd only be arguing. The only person even being close to my side being Robert, and he isn't exactly a great ally for lack of a better term.

 

 

 

Ehhh,

 

 

 

Still, Robert if he were to clarify his, uhh, "arguments" and perhaps make them a little less inflammatory - they would be valid.

 

 

 

I do understand what Robert is saying and that is just a byproduct of our petty human emotions. Robert just wants to jump the queue and hey -- if [group/individual] with rolls of cash in [possesive] pocket is willing to shell out $50,000 for free Jatz biscuits while in a slightly more "responsive" bed - that's fine with me.

 

 

 

But just don't say - that because your salary has a few extra figures you have any more of a right of being treated - that too in a public hospital. Which let me remind you - has been paid for.

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I dislike liberals and what they stand for. Me_Dilsike_Liberals I thought was a bit too long of a name.

 

 

 

And since there's no one with whom I can have any real sort of discussion with, since I'd only be arguing with the liberals here, I'm gonna stop.

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I dislike liberals and what they stand for. Me_Dilsike_Liberals I thought was a bit too long of a name.

 

 

 

And since there's no one with whom I can have any real sort of discussion with, since I'd only be arguing with the liberals here, I'm gonna stop.

 

That's because the only person you want to discuss things with is the person who agrees with you.

 

 

 

No, I just don't want to discuss things with people who are so totally the polar opposite of me since all we'd do is argue, like we're doing now.

 

 

 

I'm a libertarian, so trust me, I don't agree with liberals or conservatives alike.

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

 

 

I have a challenge for all the liberals though, and considering there's so many of you this should be easy. Everyone keeps posting data that we've all seen before, data that says America's system is broken. We get that, why don't you tell us the sun is hot too. My challenge is this: tell us WHY universal healthcare is needed, why it outweighs other options like the rescinding of company tax breaks or capping court compensations in the tote system. Why is eliminating private practice so necessary and beneficial?

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

 

 

I have a challenge for all the liberals though, and considering there's so many of you this should be easy. Everyone keeps posting data that we've all seen before, data that says America's system is broken. We get that, why don't you tell us the sun is hot too. My challenge is this: tell us WHY universal healthcare is needed, why it outweighs other options like the rescinding of company tax breaks or capping court compensations in the tote system. Why is eliminating private practice so necessary and beneficial?

 

 

 

As far as the politicians pushing for it, it's all about power. They like people dependent on government. And we all know that's true. With that, I'm out of this topic.

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Oh ya, side note. l0l0lpure. Stop being an obnoxious piece of [cabbage]. 90% of your posts are composed of unwrented insults and attacks. Stop being a tool and actually debate, or get the hell gone.

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

 

 

You guys are lame. General opinion doesn't mean [cabbage]. At one point, the majority of voters thought Obama was a good leader and look how wrong they were. Well, that's a bad example since there weren't really any other options. A better example would be the Salem Witch Trials.

 

 

 

I will admit that it takes some weight off of yourself when someone backs you up, but come on, I've been through much worse and made it out alive. :lol:

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

 

 

You guys are lame. General opinion doesn't mean [cabbage]. At one point, the majority of voters thought Obama was a good leader and look how wrong they were. Well, that's a bad example since there weren't really any other options. A better example would be the Salem Witch Trials.

 

 

 

I will admit that it takes some weight off of yourself when someone backs you up, but come on, I've been through much worse and made it out alive. :lol:

 

 

 

For me, too many people in these forums that are liberal. I can't keep up with it all without anyone else helping to take on some form of a libertarian mantle, so I'm letting it go. I'm not gonna shoulder the burden all by myself.

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

 

 

You guys are lame. General opinion doesn't mean [cabbage]. At one point, the majority of voters thought Obama was a good leader and look how wrong they were. Well, that's a bad example since there weren't really any other options. A better example would be the Salem Witch Trials.

 

 

 

I will admit that it takes some weight off of yourself when someone backs you up, but come on, I've been through much worse and made it out alive. :lol:

 

 

 

For me, too many people in these forums that are liberal. I can't keep up with it all without anyone else helping to take on some form of a libertarian mantle, so I'm letting it go. I'm not gonna shoulder the burden all by myself.

 

 

 

Why is it Americans feel the need to label people as democratic, liberal, conservative, etc? Americans are the only people I ever see doing it and it's a bit silly.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and I feel I can sum up 90% of people's mind sets who are against GOOD health care when it comes to insurance:

 

 

 

"[bleep] you, got mine"

 

 

 

Until they actually need to use it for serious health issues and find that the insurance company will do anything to get out of paying for it, or that their insurance doesn't cover it, or they still have to pay thousands of dollars.

 

 

 

Keep livin the dream America

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

 

 

You guys are lame. General opinion doesn't mean [cabbage]. At one point, the majority of voters thought Obama was a good leader and look how wrong they were. Well, that's a bad example since there weren't really any other options. A better example would be the Salem Witch Trials.

 

 

 

I will admit that it takes some weight off of yourself when someone backs you up, but come on, I've been through much worse and made it out alive. :lol:

 

 

 

For me, too many people in these forums that are liberal. I can't keep up with it all without anyone else helping to take on some form of a libertarian mantle, so I'm letting it go. I'm not gonna shoulder the burden all by myself.

 

 

 

Why is it Americans feel the need to label people as democratic, liberal, conservative, etc? Americans are the only people I ever see doing it and it's a bit silly.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and I feel I can sum up 90% of people's mind sets who are against GOOD health care when it comes to insurance:

 

 

 

"[bleep] you, got mine"

 

 

 

Until they actually need to use it for serious health issues and find that the insurance company will do anything to get out of paying for it, or that their insurance doesn't cover it, or they still have to pay thousands of dollars.

 

 

 

Keep livin the dream America

 

 

 

I grew up poor as hell. I'm getting mine. I'll keep living this dream of being self suffiicient without needing the government's help. It's sweet. <3:

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I grew up poor as hell. I'm getting mine. I'll keep living this dream of being self suffiicient without needing the government's help. It's sweet. <3:

 

 

 

Bet you your insurance sucks. And how does it make you feel knowing that your government spends more per person on health care and still comes up short compared to nationalized health care countries? Or that if we need any sort of surgery, operation, or x-rays we pay next to nothing for it while Americans pay in the 10's of thousands? Or that the choice between being healthy and getting that pain in your gut checked out by a doctor vs being ruined financially is non-existent here?

 

 

 

Edit: Watch the language please. - Lateralus.

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I grew up poor as hell. I'm getting mine. I'll keep living this dream of being self suffiicient without needing the government's help. It's sweet. <3:

 

 

 

Bet you your insurance sucks. And how does it make you feel knowing that your government spends more per person on health care and still comes up short compared to nationalized health care countries? Or that if we need any sort of surgery, operation, or x-rays we pay next to nothing for it while Americans pay in the 10's of thousands? Or that the choice between being healthy and getting that pain in your gut checked out by a doctor vs being ruined financially is non-existent here?

 

 

 

I'd say it's the government getting involved as much as it does and is screwing that all up. And you may pay next to nothing, but believe me, someone else is paying for it in the end.

 

 

 

I have great health insurance. Because I'm live alone, pay for only myself, and don't smoke or drink, my costs are very low. I'm very well able to take care of myself and have even had surgeries done with minimal issue.

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I grew up poor as hell. I'm getting mine. I'll keep living this dream of being self suffiicient without needing the government's help. It's sweet.

 

 

 

Ok, I have A LOT of catching up to do in this thread, but let me start here with a story. Let me also say that libertarians (libertarians in the American context, not the global context) have to be supportive of the dumbest ideology in politics.

 

 

 

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards.With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

 

 

 

His employer's medica plan pays all but $10 of his medications because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it, too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

 

 

 

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath.

 

The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

 

 

 

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

 

 

 

Joe begins his workday. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

 

 

 

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

 

 

 

It's noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. The FSLIC federally insures Joe's deposit because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

 

 

 

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

 

 

 

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck is nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

 

 

 

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

 

 

 

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees:

 

 

 

"We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of himself, just like I have."

 

 

 

And...I know you're going to reply to this story with this ( http://divisionoflabour.com/archives/000292.php ), but most of that is nothing but a libertarian fairy tale. Half of it is construed in mistruths (for example, how medical breakthroughs happen...hint: it's through the government who gives money to researchers, not for profit entities) and other nonsensical things that aren't delved in reality (much like the entire philosophy).

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You know what magekillr? It's posts like that that should explain to you why no selfrespecting person who disagrees with you ever wants to argue with you. You don't debate- like barihawk said, you attack people undeservingly and then hide behind intellectualism.

 

 

 

To call your entire copypasta post a strawman would be to give it to much argumentative justice. Its a piece of [cabbage]. Grow up mate.

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by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

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You know what magekillr? It's posts like that that should explain to you why no selfrespecting person who disagrees with you ever wants to argue with you. You don't debate- like barihawk said, you attack people undeservingly and then hide behind intellectualism.

 

 

 

To call your entire copypasta post a strawman would be to give it to much argumentative justice. Its a piece of [cabbage]. Grow up mate.

 

 

 

1.) How is that a straw man? A straw man takes what someone is saying, and turns it into something that they weren't saying; it's a misinterpretation of what they're saying. I didn't disregard what he said and then attack something else. I attacked his argument that he has "made it all on his own," when that's patently false.

 

 

 

2.) So what if I occassionally attack a person? It's not like I have ad hominems filled throughout my posts. I give reasons behind my attacks. I have yet to go through the rest of the post, but let's take Bari as an example. I asked him if he was being paid to lie; obviously an attack. Was it an ad hominem? No, clearly not, because he cherry picked polls left and right, demands bipartisanship when that's clearly not going to happen because of the GOP's mindset, and acts as if he hasn't paid attention to the debate right now. Either that, or he's watched Fox News rather than looked at what's actually happening.

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no Mage, I mean look at you post and count the number of times it says "[mean adjective] liberal". No one here is doing/saying that, and I don't really see what that has to do with healthcare. Chill out please, I don't want a R/D attackfest, I want to talk about healthcare unbiasedly (that's a word, right?)

 

 

 

and cmon dude. Fox is somewhat conservtive yes, but basically every other station is liberal. Beyond that, unlike other stations fox actually brings in people of opposing views and actually has debates. A lot of other stations are jut filled with democrats agreeing with each other (I'm not saying this as an attack, it's just my observation)

 

 

 

No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

I'm sure we're all sorry for not having the correct politcal beliefs.

 

I'd facepalm if that wasnt bad form. No one said being conservative was the correct belief. I just said it's hard sometimes to have a 10 v 1 debate. (sorry bout any confusion, I see how it'd sound attacking)

 

 

 

This is also why unfair debates are hard. The majority side often slanders the minority side, and I feel like the majority does it cause they can get away with it with numbers. If I were to say to you what you'd just said to me, you mineaswell just throw me to the hounddogs. I'd be a goner lol.

 

 

 

Sorry bout the double post, posting on mah phone

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

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No Rocco, he's right. It's not so much that he wants to find someone to agree with as someone to back him up in debate. This forum might as well be a democratic convention. It's overwhelming, and admittedly a bit obnoxious.

 

I'm sure we're all sorry for not having the correct politcal beliefs.

 

I'd facepalm if that wasnt bad form. No one said being conservative was the correct belief. I just said it's hard sometimes to have a 10 v 1 debate. (sorry bout any confusion, I see how it'd sound attacking)

 

 

 

This is also why unfair debates are hard. The majority side often slanders the minority side, and I feel like the majority does it cause they can get away with it with numbers. If I were to say to you what you'd just said to me, you mineaswell just throw me to the hounddogs. I'd be a goner lol.

 

 

 

Sorry bout the double post, posting on mah phone

 

 

 

Do what I do. I call it a "sigh by." Basically you read the post and let out a sigh of the ignorance of the poster as you go by it. 8-)

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I'd say it's the government getting involved as much as it does and is screwing that all up. And you may pay next to nothing, but believe me, someone else is paying for it in the end.

 

 

 

 

Government involvement is why our health care is awesome. You act like the government is some evil entity that just wants to screw it's people over. Yes, everyone pays into health care whether they need it or not, and most of us are fine with that. It's the collective majority paying so that the people among us who need health care can do so without worrying about any financial problems, which should be a top priority. Your health is the most important thing, and to have to deny yourself the access to health care because you can't afford it is wrong. I have no problem paying (less than you Americans even) so that people who need help can get it, and for peace of mind knowing that if I ever need medical attention I can get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have great health insurance. Because I'm live alone, pay for only myself, and don't smoke or drink, my costs are very low. I'm very well able to take care of myself and have even had surgeries done with minimal issue.

 

 

 

 

[bleep] you, got mine. sighted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.) How is that a straw man?

 

 

 

Seems to me that "straw man" has become a buzz word on these forums

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no Mage, I mean look at you post and count the number of times it says "[mean adjective] liberal". No one here is doing/saying that, and I don't really see what that has to do with healthcare. Chill out please, I don't want a R/D attackfest, I want to talk about healthcare unbiasedly (that's a word, right?)

 

 

 

I didn't write it, and obviously you're not saying that lol. The point is that people like Me_Hate_Libs go through their entire lives thinking they accomplished everything on their own, when it was those "mean spirited elitist" liberals who got those things accomplished. The reason for the beginning adjectives is just a mockery of people like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. It's like how some liberals are now asking conservatives if they "hate America" when they oppose something the President does; much how conservatives asked me if I hated America when I opposed the Iraq War before it was the cool thing to do, because I'm a dirty hippie. They're not serious, it's just mocking with facetiousness.

 

 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with health care, it has everything to do with him saying he did everything on his own and was self-accomplished, without realizing the debt he owes to society.

 

 

 

Anyway, I don't mean to attack as much, and I know I get carried away (esp. with people like Bari who I think are genuinely interested in reform, even if their GOP leaders don't think so). However, I do this for a living. Well, not do it for a living as I'm in college, but I get paid to organize for liberal issues, and I tire of the constant spin on reality...so at times I lash out. And it's not a conflict of interest, haha. I don't have single payer people paying me or something...it's just to fight for things I believe in.

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Mage, I'm a Libertarian and an Objectivist. I don't like Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, liberals, convservatives, Christians, none of them really.

 

 

 

I am and will always be an individual who chooses to freely associate with other people. I do not like to be forced to cooperate at the point of a gun. The gun of course being what the federal government uses to accomplish it's means. The federal government of course the only entity that can legally use force to accomplish it's goals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bleep] you, got mine. sighted.

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, sighted and duly noted.

 

 

 

I'll totally put it out there.

 

 

 

Screw you. Got mine.

 

 

 

Rational self-interest is a beautful thing. God how I love Objectivism. <3:

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