National Healthcare. What do you think of it?

[Robert_de_Sable]

I hate the idea that a man who makes $13,000 a year can be rushed to the hospital with the same cardiac arrest as any CEO and receive the same treatment for it. One of the two has worked harder in his life, and deserves what he wants to pay for.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Plus Government run healthcare would kill any private healthcare for one simple fact.

 

 

 

Private compnaies have to make a profit. The government is does not have to meet this objective.

 

 

 

Not that private healthcare is all the great anyway.

 

 

 

I'd like to point out something else.

 

 

 

Remember about 2 years back that scandal with all the mistreatment the soldiers from Iraq were getting. The people injured there. Well Walter Reed Hospital was treating them terribly. This was a government run healthcare that was meant to take care of active soldiers. The people we're meant to care about the most. And they got this. Could you imagine how an oridnary citizen will be treated?

[Racheya]

I hate the idea that a man who makes $13,000 a year can be rushed to the hospital with the same cardiac arrest as any CEO and receive the same treatment for it. One of the two has worked harder in his life, and deserves what he wants to pay for.

 

What's to say the man that works at a construction site, has been doing hard graft since he had to drop out of school because he needed to be making a wage is worth any less than the CEO? I believe that while people aren't equal and will never be, that we should treat all people as equal in the one thing we all are - human beings.

 

 

 

I think it's wrong and cruel to say that the person who has the most money has worked harder and deserves to live more than the man who works just as hard but has a family of 4 to pay for.

[Robert_de_Sable]

But the cretin dropped out of school. The CEO didn't, and good a PHD in economics instead. People should be rewarded for making good choices.

[Racheya]

Some people have no choice but to leave school. They have families to support. That person could have gone further but not everyone has a choice in what they can do in life. In general the less money you have, the less choices you have. Just because one person went further in school than another person doesn't make one life better than another.

[Robert_de_Sable]

Unfortunately, life isn't fair. One of my parents died when I was much younger, and we never really had enough money to do much. I hope to finish a degree in medicine on a partial scholarship and working late nights.

[Ss_J9_Goten]

How do you know the CEO worked harder? Who's to say the construction worker hasn't pulled double shifts, etc. just to get by? What if what he does is back breaking labour?

 

 

 

Things aren't all black and white; just because you earn more doesn't mean you earned it.

[Jernlov]

People are still arguing with Robert?

 

 

 

Just drop it and move on. No point.

[Robert_de_Sable]

People are still arguing with Robert?

 

 

 

Just drop it and move on. No point.

 

Look, you can pretend to be above debating me all you want. Certain people have done a fine job of it in the past, and I lose debates. A lot. It doesn't stop me from voicing my opinion though, and you're just giving me strength here. If you can't think of anything to say, don't say anything at all.

[Earth_Poet]

I hate the idea that a man who makes $13,000 a year can be rushed to the hospital with the same cardiac arrest as any CEO and receive the same treatment for it. One of the two has worked harder in his life, and deserves what he wants to pay for.

 

 

 

When/if you graduate with a medical degree, I hope I don't have the misfortune of you as my doctor with a philosophy like this. Will you be turning down patients based on a preexisting income?

 

 

 

We can muddy this hypothetical with even more hypotheticals. What if the CEO was involved in a criminal fraud, and spent his life drinking, abusing prescription pills, and eating fatty foods? What if low-waged man is a clergyman, or a college student trying to work to become that next CEO? The point is, none of that matters, and neither should income.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, as great as capitalism is, this is one of the byproducts: an attitude of get the hell out of my way and stay the hell off my property...even from our aspiring doctors apparently.

[Ss_J9_Goten]

How do you know the CEO worked harder? Who's to say the construction worker hasn't pulled double shifts, etc. just to get by? What if what he does is back breaking labour?

 

 

 

Things aren't all black and white; just because you earn more doesn't mean you earned it.

 

The fact of the matter is, they have earned it. Physical labor is not automatically hard work.

 

 

 

CEOs either worked hard in school and quickly moved through the ranks of a large company, or had a great idea and worked hard to make it real.

 

 

 

I think you missed my point...my point was, just because they're an "uneducated moron" doesn't mean that they haven't worked hard. Or if you want to get picky, it doesn't mean that they've worked less hard than the CEO.

 

 

 

And haha at the bolded part.

[Earth_Poet]

How do you know the CEO worked harder? Who's to say the construction worker hasn't pulled double shifts, etc. just to get by? What if what he does is back breaking labour?

 

 

 

Things aren't all black and white; just because you earn more doesn't mean you earned it.

 

The fact of the matter is, they have earned it. Physical labor is not automatically hard work.

 

 

 

CEOs either worked hard in school and quickly moved through the ranks of a large company, or had a great idea and worked hard to make it real.

 

 

 

And haha at the bolded part.

 

 

 

Yeah, he also forgot pedigree and cronyism as a couple of more reasons.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

How do you know the CEO worked harder? Who's to say the construction worker hasn't pulled double shifts, etc. just to get by? What if what he does is back breaking labour?

 

 

 

Things aren't all black and white; just because you earn more doesn't mean you earned it.

 

The fact of the matter is, they have earned it. Physical labor is not automatically hard work.

 

 

 

CEOs either worked hard in school and quickly moved through the ranks of a large company, or had a great idea and worked hard to make it real.

 

 

 

I think you missed my point...my point was, just because they're an "uneducated moron" doesn't mean that they haven't worked hard. Or if you want to get picky, it doesn't mean that they've worked less hard than the CEO.

 

 

 

And haha at the bolded part.

 

 

 

They worked hard. Physically. Physcial labor, while very taxing, isn't exactly an uncommon thing. Someone using mental labor, will always be paid more because that thing is more uncommon than phyiscal labor. That's a simple matter of supply and demand.

 

 

 

We are however, in the positions we are in in life because of the decisions we have made, and we will act and be treated justly.

[Wisp]

I'll just give an example.

 

I know this one woman, I use to get guitar lessons from her. She owns her own business, a house (which she has to rent out), and has been working ridiculously hard since she got out of college (She's like 29). But, despite all this, she can't afford health insurance, and as a result, a serious problem with her foot can't be diagnosed because she can't afford an MRI, and then probably wouldn't be able to fund the insurance.

 

I know there are problems with the system that's proposed, but we'll see how it works out.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Well clearly her business isn't making enough money to sustain her. So she should do something else. Now you might say why should she have to change her life and so forth just to get healthcare blah blah. Well I'd ask why I have to have my taxes/my life be taken to afford her?

[Wisp]

It's making enough that she gets a little bit extra, but not enough for her to afford insurance on top of that.

 

Why should your tax dollars pay for keeping people with life sentences alive in prison for another 50 years?

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Because prisons are places necessary to our country. Though if possible, the prisoners should have to work to at least to take a part of the cost.

 

 

 

There are certain justifiable uses of taxes. Firemen, police, military, roads, etc. Those are all things included in the US constitution and are part of living here. That was what our country was founded on.

 

 

 

It was not founded on porgressive income taxes, nationalized healthcare, banning substances. it was about freedom. remember that. And as much financial freedom as religios.

 

 

 

As for being founded with terrible religious controls and stuff. I know. Don't criticize me on that. It was bad.

 

 

 

And if she can't afford to take care of herself in every way needed, than she needs to be doing something else or something more.

[Bloodstain]

Part of the reason you hear for Americans not wanting something like the NHS is that it equates to big government and higher taxes. The other interesting part from the WHO report is to look at the spending per capita (this time its 2006 figures).

 

 

 

The USA spent $6,719 per capita on healthcare (private $3,642, government $3,077), and the gross national income per capita was $45,850.

 

 

 

Canada spent $3,673 per capita on healthcare (private $1,087, government $2,586), and the gross national income per capita was $35,310.

 

 

 

The UK spent $2,815 per capita on healthcare (private $358, government $2,457), and the gross national income per capita was $33,800.

 

 

 

The American system costs the average person 14.65% of their income they spend 7.94%, the state spends 6.71%.

 

 

 

The Canadian system costs the average person 10.40% of their income they spend 3.08%, the state spends 7.32%.

 

 

 

The British system costs the average person 8.33% of their income they spend 1.06%, the state spends 7.27%.

 

 

 

Using the Canadian system in the USA would save the average person $1,949 per year ($2,229 less on private, $280 more on state). Using the British system in the USA would save the average person $2,900 per year ($3,157 less on private, $256 more on state).

 

 

 

Lets extrapolate that to the total US population of 305,826,000 people (WHO report again).

 

 

 

Using the Canadian system in the USA would save a total of $596,242,388,384. Using the British system in the USA would save a total of $887,026,145,139.

 

 

 

USA's health care needs to be like ours

[1_man_army]

Though if possible, the prisoners should have to work to at least to take a part of the cost.

 

 

 

 

Doing what? A day release system where they work in the community? I can't see that going down well with the public. Many prisoners already do jobs within the prisons they do time in, many others aren't allowed to.

[Bloodstain]

Though if possible, the prisoners should have to work to at least to take a part of the cost.

 

 

 

 

There used to be a prison system in effect in the past that did this, and used fines.

 

 

 

The reasoning in this thread is pretty god damn pathetic by the way

 

 

 

E: I should add this

 

 

 

http://www.pluralofanecdote.com/#

 

 

 

experiences from this thread

 

 

 

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... enumber=41

 

 

 

A sample

 

 

 

Appendix Bursting in Brooklyn, New York, U.S.A.:

 

Private insurance

 

cost: USD$27,000.00

 

wait time: 6-7 hours

 

[hide=]In early May 2009, my abdomen began to hurt. It worsened over four days. I arrived at Kings County Medical Center (yes, the one from the news where they let a poor woman die on the floor of a waiting room) after not being able to sleep all night due to abdominal pain. I waited in a jam packed waiting room for 6-7 hours. Occasionally I couldn't find a seat. When an actual doctor got a look at me, they became very concerned and ran blood, urine, and stool samples. When all of those came back negative for anything, I was sent in for an emergency CAT scan of my abdomen. That immediately showed them that my appendix was on the border of bursting, and they rushed to prepare me for an emergency appendectomy. They got me in a gown, and did one final palpation of my lower right abdomen, at which point the pain had suddenly disappeared. I didn't know this at the time, but this meant that the appendix had actually burst. As they had not been able to operate in time to remove the appendix before it's rupture, I had to remain hospitalized for 8 days. Each day cost around $3,000. I received two separate operations, one to install a J.P. drainage ball and one to remove it. Each of these cost in the range of $7,000 - $10,000. Had they merely seen me sooner I most likely would have been able to have an appendectomy and would have had a hospital stay of around 3 days, greatly reducing the overall cost.

 

 

 

added 2009-08-17 22:00:08[/hide]

 

 

 

 

 

27k for something here in Canada that I've had friends go through painlessly, really seems minor here

 

 

 

And one for universal

 

[hide=]bone cancer in Edmonton, Canada:

 

Universal healthcare

 

cost: USD$0.00

 

wait time: weeks

 

 

 

A few years ago I was in constant back pain, so I made an apointment with my family doctor for the following week. He sent me off to get an X-ray at the walk-in clinic where you just hand them the doctor's form and wait for the couple of people before you.

 

 

 

My Doctor made another appointment for me to come in the next week for the results; turns out I had a compression fracture on my L2 vertabrae. I got a bone scan the following week to get some more information since I didn't remember any sort of trauma. Luckily there was a place on my university campus that could do the bone scan, so I ended up going there between classes.

 

 

 

After getting the bone scan back, he scheduled me for a CT scan, which I had to wait about 3 weeks for. It was a bit of a longer of a wait than I would have liked but since I couldn't do anything about it I just ended up being a good Canadian and put up with it. I get the CT scan in the morning, and in the afternoon I get a call from my doctor "We need you to go in for an MRI tomorrow". None of this waiting for the next available spot, they saw something serious and got me in the next day (made me feel OK about wait times...in my case anyway).

 

 

 

The MRI shows a tumor on my vertabrae, so they schedule me for a biopsy the next day. I saw an orthopedist later that week and scheduled a surgery about a month later to get the tumor out and fuse my spine up. I could have put the surgery sooner, but the school term was just about done and I wanted to get my finals over with.

 

 

 

I get my surgery and it turns out the tumor was more malignant that hoped so I get referred to an oncologist and the local cancer hospital. I start on chemo the next week which continues for the summer, and then just to be sure they decide to give me radiation therapy too.

 

 

 

The only costs that we had to pay for were some anti-nausea pills for the chemo, some morphene after the surgery, and the TV in the hospital room.

 

 

 

added 2009-08-31 11:11:55[/hide]

 

 

 

And another for privatized

 

[hide=]cancer in Portland, USA:

 

Private insurance

 

cost: USD$8,000.00

 

wait time: N/A

 

 

 

After noticing swelling and discomfort in my abdomen, I had a series of tests done and was diagnosed with cancer (GIST).

 

 

 

I met with a surgeon a week later. My surgery went well. 3 weeks after leaving the hospital, I was laid off. I'm quickly coming to the end of my subsidized COBRA insurance, and will likely go bankrupt trying to pay for coverage to ensure I keep taking the $4500 per month medication that is keeping me alive.

 

 

 

USA! USA!

 

 

 

added 2009-08-21 13:52:58[/hide]

 

 

 

And just one more for Universal (from an American too!)

 

[hide=]American, NHS in West Sussex, England:

 

No coverage

 

cost: USD$164.80

 

wait time: 10 minutes

 

 

 

I had large chunks of my face sewn back on by the NHS in England, a fairly nice bit of plastic surgery -- while an American abroad. I'd been riding my bicycle down a steep hill, did somersaults when something got stuck through my front spokes, and face planted at about 30mph (no helmet). The result was a 4 day hospital stay, some very prompt and quality plastic surgery, a bill for well under 100 quid, AND a small story to tell at cocktail parties and sites like this one.

 

 

 

added 2009-08-21 16:04:40[/hide]

[l0l0lpur34]

Because prisons are places necessary to our country. Though if possible, the prisoners should have to work to at least to take a part of the cost.

 

 

 

There are certain justifiable uses of taxes. Firemen, police, military, roads, etc. Those are all things included in the US constitution and are part of living here. That was what our country was founded on.

 

 

 

It was not founded on porgressive income taxes, nationalized healthcare, banning substances. it was about freedom. remember that. And as much financial freedom as religios.

 

 

 

As for being founded with terrible religious controls and stuff. I know. Don't criticize me on that. It was bad.

 

 

 

And if she can't afford to take care of herself in every way needed, than she needs to be doing something else or something more.

 

Who cares about "the constitution", it's a document written like 230 years ago? You can't use a document written in the mid-1700s to run a 2009 society - you'll be quoting the bible next I assume? It was about freedom, really? Why was slavery still legal in most US states for a good few decades after the constitution was written? I think this whole "America was founded on freedom" idea is a pretty weak argument myself :lol:

 

 

 

I'm gonna assume you're either really naive or were born with a silver spoon in your mouth for that "needs to be doing something else or something more" comment - the idea that "anyone can get a good job/career if they they try hard and pull themself up" isn't quite that simple, shown by statistics on social mobility. what about people who were born with mental/physical disabilities, how are they meant to "Pull themself up", change their genes somehow? also some people simply don't have the people skills/intelligence required for high salaries - do they deserve to just die if they fall ill?

 

 

 

The profit motive is good for a lot of industries, but healthcare just simply isn't one of them.

[l0l0lpur34]

I hate the idea that a man who makes $13,000 a year can be rushed to the hospital with the same cardiac arrest as any CEO and receive the same treatment for it. One of the two has worked harder in his life, and deserves what he wants to pay for.

 

What exactly makes the man on $13k a year's life any less valuable? What if he was born into a poor family in a very impoverished area and he had to get a job straight out of school to support his mother, and there was no possible financial way for him to try and get some qualifications to "pull himself up"? And the CEO would more than likely have private healthcare anyway - all universal healthcare does is provide a certain level of care to everyone, not ban people from paying for better healthcare if they want to.

 

 

 

Don't you support eugenics anyway? So it's no surprise that you value people's lives based upon how high of a salary they earn.

 

 

 

edit: oh yeah, you do support eugenics: viewtopic.php?p=6724268#p6724268 - you're an ignorant [puncture] with no respect for human life to be honest, all you care about is "resources" and "money".

[Bloodstain]

http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/preve ... _2008.html

 

 

 

America also has the 14th highest preventable deaths out of 18 industrialized countries at 110 per 100, 000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This study compared trends in deaths considered amenable to health care before age seventy-five between 199798 and 200203 in the United States and in eighteen other industrialized countries.

 

 

 

Such deaths account, on average, for 23 percent of total mortality under age seventy-five among males and 32 percent among females.

 

 

 

"By focusing on deaths amenable to health care, Nolte and McKee strip out factors such as population and lifestyle differences that are often cited in response to international comparisons showing the U.S. lagging in health outcomes. The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals, and efforts to improve health systems make a difference".

 

 

 

 

 

Study authors state that the measure of deaths amenable to health care is a valuable indicator of health system performance because it is sensitive to improved care, including public health initiatives. It considers a range of conditions from which it is reasonable to expect death to be averted even after the condition develops. This includes causes such as appendicitis and hypertension, where the medical nature of the intervention is apparent; it also includes illnesses that can be detected early with effective screenings such as cervical or colon cancer, and tuberculosis which, while acquisition is largely driven by socio-economic conditions, is not fatal when treated in a timely manner.

 

 

 

Spending more and still under performing

[l0l0lpur34]

http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/preventable_deaths_country_ranks_1997-1998_2002-2003_2008.html

 

 

 

America also has the 14th highest preventable deaths out of 18 industrialized countries at 110 per 100, 000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This study compared trends in deaths considered amenable to health care before age seventy-five between 199798 and 200203 in the United States and in eighteen other industrialized countries.

 

 

 

Such deaths account, on average, for 23 percent of total mortality under age seventy-five among males and 32 percent among females.

 

 

 

"By focusing on deaths amenable to health care, Nolte and McKee strip out factors such as population and lifestyle differences that are often cited in response to international comparisons showing the U.S. lagging in health outcomes. The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals, and efforts to improve health systems make a difference".

 

 

 

 

 

Study authors state that the measure of deaths amenable to health care is a valuable indicator of health system performance because it is sensitive to improved care, including public health initiatives. It considers a range of conditions from which it is reasonable to expect death to be averted even after the condition develops. This includes causes such as appendicitis and hypertension, where the medical nature of the intervention is apparent; it also includes illnesses that can be detected early with effective screenings such as cervical or colon cancer, and tuberculosis which, while acquisition is largely driven by socio-economic conditions, is not fatal when treated in a timely manner.

 

 

 

Spending more and still under performing

 

The conservatives/libertarians will all just say something like it's all a big conspiracy to turn America into a communist state :lol:

[mmmcannibalism]

Who cares about "the constitution", it's a document written like 230 years ago? You can't use a document written in the mid-1700s to run a 2009 society - you'll be quoting the bible next I assume? It was about freedom, really? Why was slavery still legal in most US states for a good few decades after the constitution was written? I think this whole "America was founded on freedom" idea is a pretty weak argument myself

 

 

 

When you realize how impressive the constitution is and stop wallowing in the slavery mud, we can have an interesting conversation. If we shouldn't follow a law that is 230 years old why should we follow a law that is ten years old?

 

 

 

Yes, the constitution has been neccesarily ammended at times; and yes there are probably a few more things we could do to deal with issues. However, the actual law the constitution lays down is very effective and proper; the problem is noone obeys the law in government. Of course, there was some needed expansion of government that wasn't anticipated, if you really want to throw out the entire law because of that be my guest :roll: