I believe that mercheanting clans are acceptible to a certain degree but they inflate prices of items to insane prices dropping the value of coins.

dude seriously, stop. make real debate threads. not trival crap.

dude seriously, stop. make real debate threads. not trival crap.

 

 

 

I agree with this. The effect right now is just pushing great debates down the front page.

and changing the topic doesnt make it any better if there are already debates on this. STOP!

Seriously, STOP MAKING STUPID POSTS that have ABSOLUTELY no discussion value or are repeated and are clearly for the sake of boosting your stupid post count.

 

 

 

Learn how to get a good, debatable topic before posting it, instead of spamming stupid random crap around here and pushing the legitimate threads down.

Seriously, STOP MAKING STUPID POSTS that have ABSOLUTELY no discussion value or are repeated and are clearly for the sake of boosting your stupid post count.

 

 

 

Learn how to get a good, debatable topic before posting it, instead of spamming stupid random crap around here and pushing the legitimate threads down.

 

 

 

I agree with you. However calm down and watch your use of words :P There's no reason to yell at someone at 6 in the morning.

Omg spam much?

 

 

 

Am I the only one that sees a real debate here? Does the thread about what the easiest 99 skill is to get, something that can be figured out with some simple math, have anymore discussion value than this? Looks to me like this guy made a few bad topics and a few of you assumed he was incapable of making a decent topic. Simply put when you saw this topic, did you see "Merching clans are they acceptible?" or "Textrunner"? If you really thought there was no discussion value than simply report the topic and move on, the moderators will take care of it.

 

Lets see what you accomplished by flaming the topic creator. First and foremost, you managed to alienate a new member of tip.it. Second, you pretty much eliminated any opportunity for this topic to be debated. The last thing I'll mention is that you managed to make an [wagon] out of yourself in front of anyone who reads this board. Way to go. and why did you do this? Because it was pushing down all the other important debates? I don't know if you noticed, but this is one of the slower boards on tip.it. Don't worry your "great debates" won't be missed.

This is just like the "Price Manipulators" debate.

 

They are acceptable. The rules does not say anything about merchanting clans not being allowed, so that is why there are still merchanting clans.

 

They may be morally wrong, but not against the rules.

 

Also, LOL at above posts.

I don't got a problem with merch clans, best thing you can do is follow up their prices and 'abuse' the merch clan yourself.

Dump gear on them when they bumped something up, buy things cheap when they dumped their item.

 

It's only annoying if you need pk supplies fast for example, but if you got some patience and planning you can benefit from merch clans yourself.

 

Read this topic on the Runescape forums too (it's Jagex stance on merch clans) -> http://[Please Use QuickFind Code].com/c=WkJwg9DMh6M/[Please Use QuickFind Code]?74,75,817,59124146

They are annoying.

 

But while you get your fair share of losses, you also gain a lot unexpectedly by their "work". I prefer they not exist, but I can live with them.

Merching Clans make their living off other people. Where do you think they get there items to sell? From people who sell their items at low prices. How do they make a profit? By selling to people who want to buy something right now, regardless of cost. If people weren't so desperate at times, and not desperate enough at other times, perhaps the clans wouldn't be as effective as they are.

This subject has been done to death in the thread "Price Manipulation, Right or Wrong?" Please do not re-post existing threads :shame:

This subject has been done to death in the thread "Price Manipulation, Right or Wrong?" Please do not re-post existing threads :shame:

Price Manipulators =/= Merchanting Clans.

 

But yeah, you're right. Refer to my earlier post in this thread.

Bump.

 

Actually forget my other posts.

 

My stances on merchanting clans? Unacceptable.

 

Reasons being? Well, look at the below pics.

 

 

Merchanting clans = advertisers = auto-typers = spammers = WRONG.

 

Apparently, the names are so complicated, it's near impossible to report them.

 

Jagex, please make merchanting clans against the rules.

No, Merching clans should not be acceptable and i believe jagex should do anything in their power to stop them. (aka balance items, drops etc.)

 

The thruth is they drive the prices on items way up while profits for skiller will drop to become smaller and smaller.

This subject has been done to death in the thread "Price Manipulation, Right or Wrong?" Please do not re-post existing threads :shame:

Was all the complaints about the poster of this question really necessary? Also, he didn't re-post. This was originally posted 2 weeks before that threat was started, and you responded a month after it's last post, so somehow this topic has endured...albeit with little to no debate and large-scale flaming of the OP.

(erewhon, I'm not singling you out on this. Your post was just the best single example)

 

textrunner has, however, brought up a good question: "Are merching clans acceptible?" Perhaps the original post could have done with a bit more context, but it's a question I've seen, and defended, a lot since joining a merchanting clan myself. Now, before you all spark up your flamethrowers, let me explain...

 

Merchanting clans in and of themselves are not the problem. A RuneScape clan is, after all, nothing more than a group of like-minded individuals gathering together to share similar interests. Why should those who enjoy the challenge of making money in-game be any different than those who enjoy skilling, mini games, combat, or any other RS activity? As I see it, the real problem is not the merchants but rather the price manipulators. Are they the same thing? No. But we've reached a point in RS where everyone is so fed up with price manipulation that the two terms have, unfortunately, become interchangeable to the community at large. My clan does not group together and force up the price of items so a handful of us can profit from it. We discuss the changes in the market and try to find the best short-term investments to maximize profit, and then everyone is free to make their own decisions. We do not manipulate, we speculate.

 

Perhaps Jagex should do more to ban manipulation clans, but it's very hard to find out exactly who is organizing the manipulation. Simply banning everyone who bought a manipulated item would lead to hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people being banned. Muting/banning the bots spamming the G.E. is nothing but a short term fix as there is no way to stop the people controlling them short of IP bans. Unfortunately I have no answers as to what should be done about manipulation clans, but I feel very strongly that something must be done.

 

A "proper" merchant clan does nothing more than try to help it's members predict the daily ups and downs of the market to gain profit.

A "manipulator" merchant clan uses the volume of it's membership to artificially, and forcefully, inflate the price of an item so that it gains them huge profits without any consideration to the effect this inflation would have upon the community as a whole.

 

As Sonic said "Price Manipulators =/= Merchanting Clans"

(of course he also said "Merchanting clans = advertisers = auto-typers = spammers = WRONG".. must have been a typo :P )

As Sonic said "Price Manipulators =/= Merchanting Clans"

(of course he also said "Merchanting clans = advertisers = auto-typers = spammers = WRONG".. must have been a typo :P )

ALL merchanting clans have advertisers so it's NOT a typo.

As Sonic said "Price Manipulators =/= Merchanting Clans"

(of course he also said "Merchanting clans = advertisers = auto-typers = spammers = WRONG".. must have been a typo :P )

ALL merchanting clans have advertisers so it's NOT a typo.

I'd have to disagree with that. Also with the fact that advertisers = auto-typers.

 

The only merchant clans I see with advertisers are the manipulation clans. That's because their success or failure in manipulating a price is primarily based around how many people they can get to purchase a single item. A proper clan has no need to do that because they're not trying to artificially inflate a price.

 

Also, not every clan who advertises is using auto-typers. Several, if not most or even all, clans have someone who is charge of recruitment and that person needs to get the word out about their clan. Just look at the number of threads in the Clan Recruitment section of this very forum. Although I do agree that the ones who simply stand in the G.E. and spam the chat window are definitely using auto-typers, the generalization of a term is part of the reason that people are having difficulty telling the difference between proper merchants and manipulators.

Merchanting clans in and of themselves are not the problem. A RuneScape clan is, after all, nothing more than a group of like-minded individuals gathering together to share similar interests. Why should those who enjoy the challenge of making money in-game be any different than those who enjoy skilling, mini games, combat, or any other RS activity? As I see it, the real problem is not the merchants but rather the price manipulators. Are they the same thing? No. But we've reached a point in RS where everyone is so fed up with price manipulation that the two terms have, unfortunately, become interchangeable to the community at large. My clan does not group together and force up the price of items so a handful of us can profit from it. We discuss the changes in the market and try to find the best short-term investments to maximize profit, and then everyone is free to make their own decisions. We do not manipulate, we speculate.

 

Perhaps Jagex should do more to ban manipulation clans, but it's very hard to find out exactly who is organizing the manipulation. Simply banning everyone who bought a manipulated item would lead to hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people being banned. Muting/banning the bots spamming the G.E. is nothing but a short term fix as there is no way to stop the people controlling them short of IP bans. Unfortunately I have no answers as to what should be done about manipulation clans, but I feel very strongly that something must be done.

 

A "proper" merchant clan does nothing more than try to help it's members predict the daily ups and downs of the market to gain profit.

A "manipulator" merchant clan uses the volume of it's membership to artificially, and forcefully, inflate the price of an item so that it gains them huge profits without any consideration to the effect this inflation would have upon the community as a whole.

 

As Sonic said "Price Manipulators =/= Merchanting Clans"

(of course he also said "Merchanting clans = advertisers = auto-typers = spammers = WRONG".. must have been a typo :P )

There was no intention to 'flame', just gain the attention of people in general as well as the OP. Whichever post came first the majority of the discussion including the points you have raised were debated back and forth in the other thread.

 

I understand the line you are attempting to draw between the 2 definitions, but it won't work. Basically because anyone who uses the GE will ultimately influence the prices, the larger the group, the larger the influence. Therefore a 'merchanting clan' will have a sigificant impact on the prices in the GE and this will result in changes whether up or down. A merchanting clan manipulates prices, even if they declare there is no intention of this....of course there is! Every merchanting clan wants the prices to go up and will sell to make a profit, the result being the prices may then fall = price manipulation. Price manipulators may be more aggressive in the way they play this, but any active role in the GE trading changes and manipulates the prices.

 

For those who are interested, Jagex have given some clearer guidelines on this subject, but still emphasis that merchanting clans and price manipulators are not against the rules, I can't get the link to work but you can find the thread by Mod Jon H on the RS forum via Quick find code: 74-75-817-59124146

 

I personally have no direct problems with either sorts of clans providing they are not breaking the rules. If they bother me with autotyping, advertisers or repetative typing while in the GE I just put them on my ignore list, anyone can do that.

I understand the line you are attempting to draw between the 2 definitions, but it won't work. Basically because anyone who uses the GE will ultimately influence the prices, the larger the group, the larger the influence. Therefore a 'merchanting clan' will have a sigificant impact on the prices in the GE and this will result in changes whether up or down. A merchanting clan manipulates prices, even if they declare there is no intention of this....of course there is! Every merchanting clan wants the prices to go up and will sell to make a profit, the result being the prices may then fall = price manipulation. Price manipulators may be more aggressive in the way they play this, but any active role in the GE trading changes and manipulates the prices.

 

I agree. I've seen players try to excuse merchanting/merchanting clans as noble while demonising price manipulators when they're in effect doing the same thing. Why would you have many players forming a merchanting clan? Simple they all have the same objective of making a profit so therefore they're in cahoots with each other. Its price manipulation but with a more acceptable badge on it and if players are saying price manipulators are bad than so are merchants. Personally I couldn't care less about either as I'm here to play a RS as a game not some stock market simulation.

I understand the line you are attempting to draw between the 2 definitions, but it won't work. Basically because anyone who uses the GE will ultimately influence the prices, the larger the group, the larger the influence. Therefore a 'merchanting clan' will have a sigificant impact on the prices in the GE and this will result in changes whether up or down. A merchanting clan manipulates prices, even if they declare there is no intention of this....of course there is! Every merchanting clan wants the prices to go up and will sell to make a profit, the result being the prices may then fall = price manipulation. Price manipulators may be more aggressive in the way they play this, but any active role in the GE trading changes and manipulates the prices.

 

I agree. I've seen players try to excuse merchanting/merchanting clans as noble while demonising price manipulators when they're in effect doing the same thing. Why would you have many players forming a merchanting clan? Simple they all have the same objective of making a profit so therefore they're in cahoots with each other. Its price manipulation but with a more acceptable badge on it and if players are saying price manipulators are bad than so are merchants. Personally I couldn't care less about either as I'm here to play a RS as a game not some stock market simulation.

I have to disagree with you on this, although you both have struck on something I had not considered:

 

Does everyone think that all merchanting clan members, intentional manipulators or not, all group together to purchase large quantities of the same items? Is this the root of the animosity towards us?

 

In response to that, I have to say that not all merch clans (at least not mine anyway) operate in this fashion. Personally, I can rarely ever buy any of the items my clan mates have recommended because the really good stuff, like always, is member's only. We mostly do what I refer to as "day trading", wherein we buy what we can in 24hrs and then flip it right away (rares and high priced items excluded of course, those are purely long-term speculation). We're not having everyone buy for a week and then dump to make profit.

 

I also have trouble believing that if I buy 100k of raw tuna one day and sell it the next that it's going to drastically affect the price, especially as I almost never buy/sell at min or max. I buy a little below mid, sell a little above and make a smaller amount of profit faster and more consistently. As to whether or not I want the price of what I bought to go up, of course I do but I'm not encouraging the others in my clan to buy as much as possible to try and raise it another couple of gp.

I understand the line you are attempting to draw between the 2 definitions, but it won't work. Basically because anyone who uses the GE will ultimately influence the prices, the larger the group, the larger the influence. Therefore a 'merchanting clan' will have a sigificant impact on the prices in the GE and this will result in changes whether up or down. A merchanting clan manipulates prices, even if they declare there is no intention of this....of course there is! Every merchanting clan wants the prices to go up and will sell to make a profit, the result being the prices may then fall = price manipulation. Price manipulators may be more aggressive in the way they play this, but any active role in the GE trading changes and manipulates the prices.

 

I agree. I've seen players try to excuse merchanting/merchanting clans as noble while demonising price manipulators when they're in effect doing the same thing. Why would you have many players forming a merchanting clan? Simple they all have the same objective of making a profit so therefore they're in cahoots with each other. Its price manipulation but with a more acceptable badge on it and if players are saying price manipulators are bad than so are merchants. Personally I couldn't care less about either as I'm here to play a RS as a game not some stock market simulation.

I have to disagree with you on this, although you both have struck on something I had not considered:

 

Does everyone think that all merchanting clan members, intentional manipulators or not, all group together to purchase large quantities of the same items? Is this the root of the animosity towards us?

 

In response to that, I have to say that not all merch clans (at least not mine anyway) operate in this fashion. Personally, I can rarely ever buy any of the items my clan mates have recommended because the really good stuff, like always, is member's only. We mostly do what I refer to as "day trading", wherein we buy what we can in 24hrs and then flip it right away (rares and high priced items excluded of course, those are purely long-term speculation). We're not having everyone buy for a week and then dump to make profit.

 

I also have trouble believing that if I buy 100k of raw tuna one day and sell it the next that it's going to drastically affect the price, especially as I almost never buy/sell at min or max. I buy a little below mid, sell a little above and make a smaller amount of profit faster and more consistently. As to whether or not I want the price of what I bought to go up, of course I do but I'm not encouraging the others in my clan to buy as much as possible to try and raise it another couple of gp.

 

I've stated that from my pov I couldn't care less whether players price manipulate or merchant so I'm neutral on this subject. In your second paragraph it reads in a similar way to price manipulation in that you all recommend items to buy then dump it. To me, apart from the time scale, theres very little difference to it. You still affect those prices although not as much as a price manipulation clan would. But you're still doing it for your own ends and I think thats what people don't like. You still affect prices. In the end we all do.

 

From my pov, I think those that hate price manipulation/merchants tend to be hypocrites. They don't like this sort of practice when it suits them, BUT, if one of their items rises significantly because of manipulation or merchants you can bet your bottom dollar they will be the first to flog it on the G.E and gleefully take the profit. They cry foul when it doesn't go their way.

I have to disagree with you on this, although you both have struck on something I had not considered:

 

Does everyone think that all merchanting clan members, intentional manipulators or not, all group together to purchase large quantities of the same items? Is this the root of the animosity towards us?

 

In response to that, I have to say that not all merch clans (at least not mine anyway) operate in this fashion. Personally, I can rarely ever buy any of the items my clan mates have recommended because the really good stuff, like always, is member's only. We mostly do what I refer to as "day trading", wherein we buy what we can in 24hrs and then flip it right away (rares and high priced items excluded of course, those are purely long-term speculation). We're not having everyone buy for a week and then dump to make profit.

 

I also have trouble believing that if I buy 100k of raw tuna one day and sell it the next that it's going to drastically affect the price, especially as I almost never buy/sell at min or max. I buy a little below mid, sell a little above and make a smaller amount of profit faster and more consistently. As to whether or not I want the price of what I bought to go up, of course I do but I'm not encouraging the others in my clan to buy as much as possible to try and raise it another couple of gp.

 

I've stated that from my pov I couldn't care less whether players price manipulate or merchant so I'm neutral on this subject. In your second paragraph it reads in a similar way to price manipulation in that you all recommend items to buy then dump it. To me, apart from the time scale, theres very little difference to it. You still affect those prices although not as much as a price manipulation clan would. But you're still doing it for your own ends and I think thats what people don't like. You still affect prices. In the end we all do.

 

From my pov, I think those that hate price manipulation/merchants tend to be hypocrites. They don't like this sort of practice when it suits them, BUT, if one of their items rises significantly because of manipulation or merchants you can bet your bottom dollar they will be the first to flog it on the G.E and gleefully take the profit. They cry foul when it doesn't go their way.

As I said, the impact a merchanting clan has on GE market prices may not be as significant as a price manipulation clan, but it is still there. Even a single individual will impact in some way, thats how markets work (otherwise what's the point in advertising in RL?). But being part of a 'group' that does it obviously increases the likliehood of causing greater change and that is why merchanting clans get tarred with the same brush as manipulation clans. To deny that you aim to buy and sell at as much profit as you can defeats the purpose of being part of this kind of clan and is naive, therefore you are hardly going to worry that 'flipping' it back on the market in a bigger quantity as you can is going to flood the GE (by however small or large amount), as long as you make your profit. If it bothers people, then don't be part of this kind of clan, and for those who really get offended, well don't use the GE, it is possible to play the game without it!

 

As for being 'acceptable', it's not against the rules and neither are price manipulation clans and as I stated previously Jagex have some good guidelines for those who don't understand this. I think Jrhairychest has made a good point and it reflects my pov in that I am happy to make a profit when I can and wait out the slumps, or even sell at low prices. After all this is a game and I would much rather be playing the RS game than spending all my time at the GE.

i personally hate merch clans. I'm one of those people who never really has any money, and am too busy doing other things to be bothered with making more. i keep a general stack of about 500k-2.5m. never buy any more things than i need, and always on the lookout for the cheap but effective things. when i do need things however, like hrebs a while back, sometime the merch clans will get their hands on the one or two specific items i need. the one or two items that EVERYONE needs. it is incredibly frustrating when i need something, be it sharks, herbs or whatever, and not able to buy it right then and there, every now and then having to pay even more for what i need.

 

frankly, merch clans are getting to be as much of a problem as bots used to be. we, as runescape players, must unite to stop what's already happening in America's economy from happening here too. Together, we can make a difference. and before you flame me or whatever, these are my honest-to-the-gods views on the topic, and regardless of what anyone has to say on the topic, my point will remain here loud and clear, my views unchanged...