Extreme pots in Pvp

[De_Lille_D]

I think one of the main things is that you can buy equipment but you can't buy levels, so it's forcing you to level up a non combat skill (almost to getting the skillcape) to beat others in PvP. I think they should have just been made tradeable.

I disagree. Say the item costs 50 mill, that you can make 1 mill per hour and that the skill takes 50 hours of training. Then you can obviously see that getting the skill or getting the item is the same thing.

Also, you all sound like having high Herblore equals instant victory. I agree that if 2 people with the exact same stats and equipment fight, but one of them has extreme pots, he'll win. But there are other kinds of advantages that can give you an edge (Dclaws, ancients, vengeance, vesta, ...). You can always check highscores to check Herblore level, just like you can check for 99 strength.

[Youmu]

A recent post in RSOF confirmed that Extreme pots are not allowed in PvP.

 

Check this thread.

[Will H]

Imagine it this way: You can be very effective in melee combat if you use dragon claws but without potions, but you can't be effective if you use potions but don't use a weapon. Fundamentally, they effect your chances in combat very differently.

Not using a weapon? That isn't a good comparison. When you look at combat levels now, they tell you how strong the player is, when using the average equipment. If you put a 120 vs 136, but the 136 has to use a rubber chicken, the combat level won't be representative from the 136s strength.

 

I think you have to compare a whip+pots or dclaws without pots. You'll see the difference isn't as big then.

Answer me this: why should the Herblore advantage be given a combat level effect, while the D Claw/Vengeance/Godsword/Sara Brews/Ancients/Vesta/Full Bandos (choose one) advantage doesn't?

 

There will always be advantages, but you can't make a number out of it! Combat level is for combat stats, not for advantages.

You can't see whether someone has potted up or not, whereas all equipped items (aside from rings, but they're not the subject of this discussion) are plainly visible. When you size up how effective a player is going to be in combat, you take into account his/her equipment, and combat level, which should represent the bonuses you can't directly see. It doesn't necessarily represent how strong a player is full stop.

[De_Lille_D]

You can't see whether someone has potted up or not, whereas all equipped items (aside from rings, but they're not the subject of this discussion) are plainly visible. When you size up how effective a player is going to be in combat, you take into account his/her equipment, and combat level, which should represent the bonuses you can't directly see. It doesn't necessarily represent how strong a player is full stop.

How about if you keep Dclaws in your inventory until you decide to spec? Or how about Barage runes, to farcast your opponent after he has wasted much of his food?

[Will H]

You can't see whether someone has potted up or not, whereas all equipped items (aside from rings, but they're not the subject of this discussion) are plainly visible. When you size up how effective a player is going to be in combat, you take into account his/her equipment, and combat level, which should represent the bonuses you can't directly see. It doesn't necessarily represent how strong a player is full stop.

How about if you keep Dclaws in your inventory until you decide to spec? Or how about Barage runes, to farcast your opponent after he has wasted much of his food?

The visible aspects of a player's combat ability, such as combat level and equipment (his/her combat profile, if you will) is subject from change from moment to moment, but the change should be visible, be it a prayer (even the stat boosting ones), the use of a spell, a change of weapon, or using a potion to give the opponent the chance to change tactics as well. If we can hide a change to our combat profile during or after it had been made, the point of a displayed combat level is lost.

 

If you can think of a better way of showing what is going on with the use of a stat boost other than messing with the combat level, I will support it also.

[De_Lille_D]

The visible aspects of a player's combat ability, such as combat level and equipment (his/her combat profile, if you will) is subject from change from moment to moment, but the change should be visible, be it a prayer (even the stat boosting ones), the use of a spell, a change of weapon, or using a potion to give the opponent the chance to change tactics as well. If we can hide a change to our combat profile during or after it had been made, the point of a displayed combat level is lost.

 

If you can think of a better way of showing what is going on with the use of a stat boost other than messing with the combat level, I will support it also.

So you suggest showing all the possible invisible boosts (pots, prays, pots) to all players? I don't think that's possible.

Don't forget combat level also influences other things, like if monsters are aggressive or not. Old Bounty Hunter used to be split up based on Combat level, so Jagex might use this again later.

Also, except for rings, you can look up someones herblore, pray or magic level. And it's obvious that if a person has high enough herb/Pray, he will use the unlocked boost.

[Will H]

So you suggest showing all the possible invisible boosts (pots, prays, pots) to all players? I don't think that's possible.

Don't forget combat level also influences other things, like if monsters are aggressive or not. Old Bounty Hunter used to be split up based on Combat level, so Jagex might use this again later.

Also, except for rings, you can look up someones herblore, pray or magic level. And it's obvious that if a person has high enough herb/Pray, he will use the unlocked boost.

Sure it's possible, we're only talking about stat-boosts. In that case, it needs to be a combat level system change, since it is vital to many activities, I agree. However, I don't believe looking up the stats of your opponent and guessing motives, although resourceful, counts as making the effects visible. If we have to do that, again we've lost the point of a combat level.

[De_Lille_D]

Sure it's possible, we're only talking about stat-boosts. In that case, it needs to be a combat level system change, since it is vital to many activities, I agree. However, I don't believe looking up the stats of your opponent and guessing motives, although resourceful, counts as making the effects visible. If we have to do that, again we've lost the point of a combat level.

In my opinion, combat level isn't meant to be correct for assessing player strength and should only be used for things like making some monsters unaggressive.

For example: if a pure with 99 att/99st/40def/99hp/1pray (combat 99) were to fight a person with 58att/57str/99def/99hp/99pray (same combat), I'm pretty sure the pure would win (mainly because the other one can't wield any dragon weapons) [Ok, maybe not, but you can think of a few examples yourself where same combat doesn't mean same strength...]. I'm not saying the combat level algorithm is flawed. Everyone knows that already =p.

My point is: it's nearly impossible to make a level, based on 7 (or 8) skills that will realistically depict your strength in average equipment. Not, to forget the fact that most fights in wild are won by KO, not by running out of food (higher hitting average), so that means there should be a DeathMatch combat level and a No-Rules Combat level... As I said: nearly impossible.

The reason why you can make a good estimate of player strength in wildy, is because it's obvious that having higher strength and low pray is better; therefore, more people have that. Also, people who have high pray and low strength don't go pking because of their disadvantage.

 

The optimal solution would be to show everyone's 7 (or 8) skills (and maybe add herblore while you're at it for the extreme pots) next to the name, so you can make the assessment yourself. But that would not be practical and you still need combat levels for wildy levels...

So, the best way to know what you're up against, is to check the highscores. Usually, for higher levels, you'll be able to see all relevant skills.

 

Off topic: Apparently, Jagex has lowered some of my skills?

[Burzuk]

The argument of "i don't have the patience/money/time to raise my herblore lvl after raising my combat skills to have an edge in pvp" should validate the argument of "i don't have the money to buy bgs/claws/any weapon that can 1-hit ko my opponent" yet the latter is ignored...why's that?

 

This is crap, if i bothered to raise my herblore level i should reap the benefits from it. Just because you didn't doesn't mean it's unfair. If your bothered by this and you pk i'm going to assume that your combat stats are all 99 because otherwise why bother...other people with higher levels will just beat you and that would be unfair. Also every stat directly and indirectly affects all others....the only reason people complained it's because extreme pots are untradeable.

 

This to me falls in line with the "pker arguments". Honor Pking, pray is too strong at lvl 43, etc etc.

[De_Lille_D]

The argument of "i don't have the patience/money/time to raise my herblore lvl after raising my combat skills to have an edge in pvp" should validate the argument of "i don't have the money to buy bgs/claws/any weapon that can 1-hit ko my opponent" yet the latter is ignored...why's that?

 

This is crap, if i bothered to raise my herblore level i should reap the benefits from it. Just because you didn't doesn't mean it's unfair. If your bothered by this and you pk i'm going to assume that your combat stats are all 99 because otherwise why bother...other people with higher levels will just beat you and that would be unfair. Also every stat directly and indirectly affects all others....the only reason people complained it's because extreme pots are untradeable.

 

This to me falls in line with the "pker arguments". Honor Pking, pray is too strong at lvl 43, etc etc.

While I agree with everything you've said, I must ask you to keep these post to yourself, unless you have an new arguments to bring to the debate... This isn't a Rant thread.

[Youmu]

Pointing this out again:

This thread

 

End debate.

[De_Lille_D]

Pointing this out again:

This thread

 

End debate.

Oh come on. Do you really Jagex is going to admit they were wrong? They should've known that rushers would get stronger.

Positive point though: we're gonna get more potions, because their testers screwed up =).

[Will H]

Pointing this out again:

This thread

 

End debate.

We're not debating about what's happening, we're debating about what should happen. Often with Jagex, there's a huge difference.

[z0diark]

Personally, I thought it would have made some people a little overpowered in PVP but I wouldn't mind that. The problem for me was when Jagex released an update that caused alot of people to spend millions on training a skill that theu have little other use for and then a few days later they remove this update. I can live with most updates tbh, I just don't like when Jagex start changing their minds and removing updates.