PvP & Potions - From the RSOF

[lordkafei]

Hey all,

 

Firstly, thanks for your patience whilst we were further investigating the high level potion changes. After monitoring player feedback in and out of the game, we will not be making any further changes to the potions released a short while ago. They will remain out of PvP scenarios.

 

Questions that may be asked at this point:

 

Why wasn't this done before release/done so quickly post-release?

The potions were tested and balanced beforehand to a degree that we were happy with their effects. It was only after monitoring combat post release on a large scale that we could see the randomness of hit chances had been effected in a negative way. With the increased numbers "under the hood" so to speak, the randomness of hitting vs not hitting in a fight between differently buffed players had tilted in a direction we didn't intend. As a result, more players may have lost an unfair fight from the start. This is something we will look to rectify in the future with the combat system changes.

 

Why don't you allow them in PvP but make the tradeable?

A fair point, but we want these potions to only give benefits to players who have trained for the levels themselves. This is still the case, as those who have trained gain advantages in PvE situations.

 

Isn't there also a problem in general with Hitpoints and Max-hit?

Yes. Another reason that was considered in the removal was that some weapons gained ability to 1-hit a player, or got closer to doing so. Whilst this occurrence is rare, it didn't mean it wasn't possible. In regards to Hitpoints and Max-hitting, we will look to address this in regards to the combat system changes and perhaps looking closer at the Defence skill.

 

Why did you do this, but leave items such as dragon claws/AGS as they are?

It's true, some weapons special attacks are more powerful than others. Whilst we can look at these on a case-by-case basis, items such as the claws have been a part of the game for a year now. Again, as the claws/AGS are distinctly tied to a combat stat (Attack) they have no reason to be removed. These items are also visible if someone is holding them - whereas a boosted stat isn't.

 

What next? I trained my Herbore level and some benefits got removed!

Fair enough, I've got 99 Herblore myself so can relate to the loss of this change, but we have decided to spend some time on another Herblore update that does not go against the points/answers I've outlined above, so let's see if we can use this thread constructively to get some great potions in-game together. We'll be watching this thread as close as we can, so please post anything you think would work well, and if you'd have it tradeable too!

 

Some preliminary ideas I've been thinking on (No guarantees here!) are potions that might give regeneration abilities over time, leech health for a certain amount of time (like 1/2 the damage you hit is healed for a short period of time), or maybe a potion that might help prevent death...

 

Thanks for reading and understanding.

-Chris

 

 

Quick find code: 15-16-985-59800114

 

Jagex should open a dog obedience school - they have gotten rolling over down to an art form.

[Everyonedies]

Meh i think at least they should let the potions in on safe mini games like castle wars, soul wars and any others im too tired to think of.... I mean 138 fighting a lvl 30 is instant death for the lvl 30 what harm is it to allow the e-pots to be used.

[Wachtwoord]

Meh i think at least they should let the potions in on safe mini games like castle wars, soul wars and any others im too tired to think of.... I mean 138 fighting a lvl 30 is instant death for the lvl 30 what harm is it to allow the e-pots to be used.

Personally, I'm glad they're removed the duel arena. Level 100-110's who are tied to 130+'s, already have small chance of winning (as long as the 130+ knows what he's doing), these potions would almost nullify the chance of winning for the lower levelled.

[langer]

Future combat changes... I expect pures rioting all over RS.

 

This is very interesting, lots of ideas being thrown out there. More rewards for high herblore in the future, I would like that a lot.

[Toad]

Chris has 99 herb amg.

 

I don't mind about potions but I don't usually pk, I am however stuck with 13.9k extreme antifire potions soon :P

[AlexRose]

It's true, some weapons special attacks are more powerful than others. Whilst we can look at these on a case-by-case basis, items such as the claws have been a part of the game for a year now. Again, as the claws/AGS are distinctly tied to a combat stat (Attack) they have no reason to be removed. These items are also visible if someone is holding them - whereas a boosted stat isn't.

 

It would be a wonder if they got anything accomplished following this logic; its borderline hypocritical to justify their updates with that logic, seeing that Jagex have shown no hesitation to update integrated parts of the game before. Reading between the lines, however, they basically admit that they don't want to nerf any weapons for fear of retribution from the general population.

 

 

The potions were tested and balanced beforehand to a degree that we were happy with their effects. It was only after monitoring combat post release on a large scale that we could see the randomness of hit chances had been effected in a negative way. With the increased numbers "under the hood" so to speak, the randomness of hitting vs not hitting in a fight between differently buffed players had tilted in a direction we didn't intend. As a result, more players may have lost an unfair fight from the start. This is something we will look to rectify in the future with the combat system changes.

 

If there was an imbalance regarding the potions, then why didn't Jagex simply reduce their effectiveness (nerf them), in particular regards to the Magic Extreme?

 

 

Yes. Another reason that was considered in the removal was that some weapons gained ability to 1-hit a player, or got closer to doing so. Whilst this occurrence is rare, it didn't mean it wasn't possible. In regards to Hitpoints and Max-hitting, we will look to address this in regards to the combat system changes and perhaps looking closer at the Defence skill.

 

 

That is absolutely true, and in my opinion should be a top priority for future updates. However, Jagex has shown no regards for their increasing deprivation of the defensive skills up until this point, and surely they must have noticed this if they performed proper testing. So why didn't they make new effects that did not involve increasing damage potential in the first place (and they did open the forum for suggestions in that regard)? It just seems that they aren't thinking very clearly about the impact of updates.

[Toad]

Personally I want Evil Dave to sell stew spices, so we can use it in potions with specific herbs for like construction +4 or whatever instead of the +6 the stew does now but works for that skill.

 

I just think we need some more non-combat potions sometimes too, although these combat ones need rebalancing.

[Den]

That sucks. What harm does it have at castle wars? "Boohoo, a 130 killed me at level 100." Big whoop.

Clan Wars, "Oh no, our clan lost a fight where the only thing to gain is reputation."

 

Oh well, cant use them anyway.

[bedman]

Damn, I really expected they would add them to clan wars, cwars etc over time.

[thunderlord]

or maybe a potion that might help prevent death...

 

 

sounds nice but... this would defintly have a great impact on boss hunting and such

[langer]

or maybe a potion that might help prevent death...

 

 

sounds nice but... this would defintly have a great impact on boss hunting and such

 

Probably something with the same effect as ring of life.

[Everyonedies]

Meh i think at least they should let the potions in on safe mini games like castle wars, soul wars and any others im too tired to think of.... I mean 138 fighting a lvl 30 is instant death for the lvl 30 what harm is it to allow the e-pots to be used.

Personally, I'm glad they're removed the duel arena. Level 100-110's who are tied to 130+'s, already have small chance of winning (as long as the 130+ knows what he's doing), these potions would almost nullify the chance of winning for the lower levelled.

No not for Duels unless pots were turned on then its ok its not the high herb level guys fault you want to use pots but he can use better ones... I dont have near the herb levels to use any of the extreme pots but if i ever get there i sure as hell would want to try them out on other players.

[Jehosaphat]

Oh well. Potions are still good for bosshunting.

[Wachtwoord]

Meh i think at least they should let the potions in on safe mini games like castle wars, soul wars and any others im too tired to think of.... I mean 138 fighting a lvl 30 is instant death for the lvl 30 what harm is it to allow the e-pots to be used.

Personally, I'm glad they're removed the duel arena. Level 100-110's who are tied to 130+'s, already have small chance of winning (as long as the 130+ knows what he's doing), these potions would almost nullify the chance of winning for the lower levelled.

No not for Duels unless pots were turned on then its ok its not the high herb level guys fault you want to use pots but he can use better ones... I dont have near the herb levels to use any of the extreme pots but if i ever get there i sure as hell would want to try them out on other players.

There's a difference between gaining an advantage and making the chance of winning almost 100%. I fear these post would have tipped the balance to the wrong side.

[Soma2035]

Oh well. Potions are still good for bosshunting.

 

Actually, they are useless, for the most part. Extreme Attack, Strength, Defense, and Range face the same problem that Super Attack, Strength, Defense, and Mage do - they get negated by Saradomin Brews. Unless you are in a PvP situation rather than PvM (competing with a crashing team for kills, versus just killing the boss alone or with your team), forgoing stat boosting potions altogether and just bringing more prayer / healing will get you more kills in the same amount of time, once you factor the time delving through waterbirth, or killing 40 GWD monsters, getting your teams together, etc. Only when you expect to have to compete with another team were Super Potions really useful. But kill speed doesn't reduce the amount of time spent waiting for a spawn, or time spent preparing for the trip.

 

Extreme Magic would be good, except Magic has never been a weapon-of-choice for bosses with exception of Dagannoth Rex. Dagannoth Rex exemplifies the same problems that plagues Super Attack/Strength/Defense/Range - killing faster doesn't speed of spawn time, so time per kill decreases only marginally. It doesn't help that runes have gone up in price...

 

Besides those... Super Antifire is still good, but it was never PvP related in the first place (items that prevent dragonfire didn't block DFS or Dragon Bolts last I checked). Special Restore makes me laugh - not worth the space unless you're competing for kills. Extreme Prayer is good, but most of the time, Super Restore is better since it allows the use of Brews. Overload is good, but the periodic hp drop can be fatal if it happens at the wrong time, and the 50 hp recovered at the end may be wasted if it happens at the wrong time.

 

Do you see a pattern here? Because I sure do - these potions are useful only in the PvP situations that Jagex failed to correct, such as FFA Corporeal Beast or GWD Bosses, or as substitutes for their Super counterparts in activities like slayer... where you really don't need the minor bonus anyways, and it's hardly worth the effort.

[@Dan3HitU]

Future combat changes... I expect pures rioting all over RS.

They have to learn it's THEIR choice not to train certain skills, therefor it's basically tough terd that they don't have updates/bonuses that people that train all the skills have.

[hohto]

Meh i think at least they should let the potions in on safe mini games like castle wars, soul wars and any others im too tired to think of.... I mean 138 fighting a lvl 30 is instant death for the lvl 30 what harm is it to allow the e-pots to be used.

Personally, I'm glad they're removed the duel arena. Level 100-110's who are tied to 130+'s, already have small chance of winning (as long as the 130+ knows what he's doing), these potions would almost nullify the chance of winning for the lower levelled.

No not for Duels unless pots were turned on then its ok its not the high herb level guys fault you want to use pots but he can use better ones... I dont have near the herb levels to use any of the extreme pots but if i ever get there i sure as hell would want to try them out on other players.

There's a difference between gaining an advantage and making the chance of winning almost 100%. I fear these post would have tipped the balance to the wrong side.

 

The combat level doesn't always correlate with high herblore. There's still plenty of people with 130+ combat and too low herblore for the potions, yet there's people with 99 herb and under 100 combat. Allowing them in duels would let people who have trained some skills instead of melee to have a better chance to win. I'd say it would benefit those who have worked for levels and not that it would take anything away from someone who hasn't. With an update like you're Jagex is just punishing people who have spent money and time to get the levels: we could aswell put a maximum gear limit (like, under 10m weapons+max5-10m in armours) to the same places. After all that would increase the chances for poorer people to win.

[D Jay99]

Oh well. Potions are still good for bosshunting.

 

Actually, they are useless, for the most part. Extreme Attack, Strength, Defense, and Range face the same problem that Super Attack, Strength, Defense, and Mage do - they get negated by Saradomin Brews. Unless you are in a PvP situation rather than PvM (competing with a crashing team for kills, versus just killing the boss alone or with your team), forgoing stat boosting potions altogether and just bringing more prayer / healing will get you more kills in the same amount of time, once you factor the time delving through waterbirth, or killing 40 GWD monsters, getting your teams together, etc. Only when you expect to have to compete with another team were Super Potions really useful. But kill speed doesn't reduce the amount of time spent waiting for a spawn, or time spent preparing for the trip.

 

Extreme Magic would be good, except Magic has never been a weapon-of-choice for bosses with exception of Dagannoth Rex. Dagannoth Rex exemplifies the same problems that plagues Super Attack/Strength/Defense/Range - killing faster doesn't speed of spawn time, so time per kill decreases only marginally. It doesn't help that runes have gone up in price...

 

Besides those... Super Antifire is still good, but it was never PvP related in the first place (items that prevent dragonfire didn't block DFS or Dragon Bolts last I checked). Special Restore makes me laugh - not worth the space unless you're competing for kills. Extreme Prayer is good, but most of the time, Super Restore is better since it allows the use of Brews. Overload is good, but the periodic hp drop can be fatal if it happens at the wrong time, and the 50 hp recovered at the end may be wasted if it happens at the wrong time.

 

Do you see a pattern here? Because I sure do - these potions are useful only in the PvP situations that Jagex failed to correct, such as FFA Corporeal Beast or GWD Bosses, or as substitutes for their Super counterparts in activities like slayer... where you really don't need the minor bonus anyways, and it's hardly worth the effort.

So basically, the only thing these pots are useful for is slayer?

[Skull]

I see a hint at reworking defence. Cool.

[bedman]

Oh well. Potions are still good for bosshunting.

 

Actually, they are useless, for the most part. Extreme Attack, Strength, Defense, and Range face the same problem that Super Attack, Strength, Defense, and Mage do - they get negated by Saradomin Brews. Unless you are in a PvP situation rather than PvM (competing with a crashing team for kills, versus just killing the boss alone or with your team), forgoing stat boosting potions altogether and just bringing more prayer / healing will get you more kills in the same amount of time, once you factor the time delving through waterbirth, or killing 40 GWD monsters, getting your teams together, etc. Only when you expect to have to compete with another team were Super Potions really useful. But kill speed doesn't reduce the amount of time spent waiting for a spawn, or time spent preparing for the trip.

 

Extreme Magic would be good, except Magic has never been a weapon-of-choice for bosses with exception of Dagannoth Rex. Dagannoth Rex exemplifies the same problems that plagues Super Attack/Strength/Defense/Range - killing faster doesn't speed of spawn time, so time per kill decreases only marginally. It doesn't help that runes have gone up in price...

 

Besides those... Super Antifire is still good, but it was never PvP related in the first place (items that prevent dragonfire didn't block DFS or Dragon Bolts last I checked). Special Restore makes me laugh - not worth the space unless you're competing for kills. Extreme Prayer is good, but most of the time, Super Restore is better since it allows the use of Brews. Overload is good, but the periodic hp drop can be fatal if it happens at the wrong time, and the 50 hp recovered at the end may be wasted if it happens at the wrong time.

 

Do you see a pattern here? Because I sure do - these potions are useful only in the PvP situations that Jagex failed to correct, such as FFA Corporeal Beast or GWD Bosses, or as substitutes for their Super counterparts in activities like slayer... where you really don't need the minor bonus anyways, and it's hardly worth the effort.

 

I have to agree with your arguments about GWD and DKS, but for things like KQ, KBD, and TDs, these pots help a lot.

For slayer, they have an effect that is big enough to warrant there use. I mean, people are pietying and cannoning and paying loads to get faster xp. At first I thought these pots were very expensive because you have to add another expensive second, but then I realised you gain very good xp for that. Take super attacks for instance. I happen to have 500 super attack (3) in bank. If I want to upgrade them, I will have to pay roughly 1.8m in avantoes. However, I will get 220k experience. Last time I checked that is a VERY good gp/xp rate for lvling herblore + the lvling is extremely quick.

 

But yeah, you are right, Jagex did a bad move. I just wanted to point out that they do still have uses. That's why I'm currently aiming to get them. Never been a big team boss hunter anyway.

[Articultural]

God forbid higher levels should give an advantage. <_<

[Stewie_Griffen]

So like 50 people whine and they take the potions out of PvP, and hundreds of people protest that and they do nothing?

 

Why not just get rid of normal worlds since PKers and merch clans are the only people that matter, Jagex?

[Obtaurian]

I'm disappointed that these PVP oriented potions are never going to see a PVP world again. :thumbdown: I will definitely be using them for slayer and solo boss hunting, nonetheless. I'm looking forward to these supposed changes to the combat system.

[Will H]

I'm very disappointed by this, they've basically put a chisel to the game and formed a crack between PvP combat and PvM combat. I can only see that crack widening in the future.

[Wachtwoord]

Meh i think at least they should let the potions in on safe mini games like castle wars, soul wars and any others im too tired to think of.... I mean 138 fighting a lvl 30 is instant death for the lvl 30 what harm is it to allow the e-pots to be used.

Personally, I'm glad they're removed the duel arena. Level 100-110's who are tied to 130+'s, already have small chance of winning (as long as the 130+ knows what he's doing), these potions would almost nullify the chance of winning for the lower levelled.

No not for Duels unless pots were turned on then its ok its not the high herb level guys fault you want to use pots but he can use better ones... I dont have near the herb levels to use any of the extreme pots but if i ever get there i sure as hell would want to try them out on other players.

There's a difference between gaining an advantage and making the chance of winning almost 100%. I fear these post would have tipped the balance to the wrong side.

 

The combat level doesn't always correlate with high herblore. There's still plenty of people with 130+ combat and too low herblore for the potions, yet there's people with 99 herb and under 100 combat. Allowing them in duels would let people who have trained some skills instead of melee to have a better chance to win. I'd say it would benefit those who have worked for levels and not that it would take anything away from someone who hasn't. With an update like you're Jagex is just punishing people who have spent money and time to get the levels: we could aswell put a maximum gear limit (like, under 10m weapons+max5-10m in armours) to the same places. After all that would increase the chances for poorer people to win.

Yes, but from the people who have such high herblore level and like to participate in PVP, the big majority of them also have almost maxed combat levels. Again, I agree they should have an advantage, but everyone with skill (=/=levels) should have at least a decent shot at winning. I fear those people won't have that shot any more when these pots are allowed. However, this is purely speculation, it'd be nice if anyone would know the real power of these potions in PVP. Too bad that's not possible. :S My biggest concern is Jagex took these potions out before they were thoroughly tested by the players.