Obama Extends Patriot Act

[SeanyTheSailor]

You say it's only a matter of time, but its not. Unless we really get [bleep]ed up somehow, Joe Schmoe will NOT give up his suburban lifestyle (loose his Hummer, loose his plasma TV, loose his money, etc) to go on a crusade that will most likely get him killed for hardly anything that affects him greatly.

 

Does the problem of the government really affect you much? Has the Patriot Act accused you of being a Terrorist? Has taxes ruined you financially (not stress, but absolute ruin)? Did the war in Iraq cause a tank to blow up your house? People have a very short-term mindset. While we do need to protect from the Patriot Act, pay considerable taxes, and the lives lost in Iraq, since it doesn't affect us directly in front of our eyes, people won't go on a revolution. Only those deeply directly affected and idealistic extremists will urge revolution.

 

What I'm trying to say, America is NOT in a position to be at the edge of revolution. Nor do I think, we will be in the near future. No matter what military monstrosities happen or scamming scum of the government does, we're just TOO content to do anything.

 

And realize the military will stop any "revolutions" from starting. The governments smart enough to attack these things before they become big, big enough to make the patriotic soldiers turn against the leaderships. Would a soldier not fight and face treason/discharge because of a little incident that at the time seems like nothing? It'll be stupid, they'll do the job, and the "potential revolution" is stopped.

So you're saying that all of these soldiers would shoot at their families and friends? Therein lies the problem of stopping revolutions. I'm not talking about 35 people carrying signs saying change government now! I'm talking serious bloodshed, when the American people are finally tired of getting shafted and they see all that they have lost. And as I said I don't think we should start a revolution now, i believe that the system is still salvageable. And due to Joe Schmoe would do just about anything if he thought everyone else was doing it, i almost said anything he thought was right, but that doesn't have to be the case as has been proved so many times.... Ans also at least at the moment the government can't "attack' these revolutions, freedom of expression, as long as they don't turn violent, but if it's serious it won't matter. My point is that the big wigs in Washington think they are invincible and the American people need to tell/show them they aren't, I think electing Scott Brown did wonders.

 

edit: on your above post, cops are citizens too

 

I also think it is worth special not that the other person "arguing" with you is a National Guard member, the exact person they would "send in".

[Vulxai]

You say it's only a matter of time, but its not. Unless we really get [bleep]ed up somehow, Joe Schmoe will NOT give up his suburban lifestyle (loose his Hummer, loose his plasma TV, loose his money, etc) to go on a crusade that will most likely get him killed for hardly anything that affects him greatly.

 

Does the problem of the government really affect you much? Has the Patriot Act accused you of being a Terrorist? Has taxes ruined you financially (not stress, but absolute ruin)? Did the war in Iraq cause a tank to blow up your house? People have a very short-term mindset. While we do need to protect from the Patriot Act, pay considerable taxes, and the lives lost in Iraq, since it doesn't affect us directly in front of our eyes, people won't go on a revolution. Only those deeply directly affected and idealistic extremists will urge revolution.

 

What I'm trying to say, America is NOT in a position to be at the edge of revolution. Nor do I think, we will be in the near future. No matter what military monstrosities happen or scamming scum of the government does, we're just TOO content to do anything.

 

And realize the military will stop any "revolutions" from starting. The governments smart enough to attack these things before they become big, big enough to make the patriotic soldiers turn against the leaderships. Would a soldier not fight and face treason/discharge because of a little incident that at the time seems like nothing? It'll be stupid, they'll do the job, and the "potential revolution" is stopped.

so you're saying that all of there soldiers would shoot at their families? Therein lies the problem of stopping revolutions. I'm not talking about 35 people carrying signs saying change government now! I'm talking serious bloodshed, when the American people are finally tired of getting shafted and they see all that they have lost. And as I said I don't think we should start a revolution now, i believe that the system is still salvageable. And due to Joe Schmoe would do just about anything if he thought everyone else was doing it, i almost said anything he thought was right, but that doesn't have to be the case as has been proved so many times.... Ans also at least at the moment the government can't "attack' these revolutions, freedom of expression, as long as they don't turn violent, but if it's serious it won't matter. My point is that the big wigs in Washington think they are invincible and the American people need to tell/show them they aren't, I think electing Scott Brown did wonders.

 

edit: on your above post, cops are citizens too

 

If there's a revolution, it's going to be violent. And I really don't see any sort of revolution anywhere in my lifetime. The government isn't THAT bad yet.

[The Dark Lord]

I would have to agree with Vulxai. The government hasn't proved to be bad enough for a revolt yet.

 

There are a few scenarios that could possibly start a civil war, though (in my eyes):

 

-Secession of a bloc of nations

-Collapse of the Dollar (tying in with the first bullet)

-Increasing governmental incompetence that causes extreme domestic problems. The government might try to declare war on too many fronts, causing the military to start losing the war, thus causing a military coup due to the disillusionment of the soldiers.

[Giordano]

You say it's only a matter of time, but its not. Unless we really get [bleep]ed up somehow, Joe Schmoe will NOT give up his suburban lifestyle (loose his Hummer, loose his plasma TV, loose his money, etc) to go on a crusade that will most likely get him killed for hardly anything that affects him greatly.

 

Does the problem of the government really affect you much? Has the Patriot Act accused you of being a Terrorist? Has taxes ruined you financially (not stress, but absolute ruin)? Did the war in Iraq cause a tank to blow up your house? People have a very short-term mindset. While we do need to protect from the Patriot Act, pay considerable taxes, and the lives lost in Iraq, since it doesn't affect us directly in front of our eyes, people won't go on a revolution. Only those deeply directly affected and idealistic extremists will urge revolution.

 

What I'm trying to say, America is NOT in a position to be at the edge of revolution. Nor do I think, we will be in the near future. No matter what military monstrosities happen or scamming scum of the government does, we're just TOO content to do anything.

 

And realize the military will stop any "revolutions" from starting. The governments smart enough to attack these things before they become big, big enough to make the patriotic soldiers turn against the leaderships. Would a soldier not fight and face treason/discharge because of a little incident that at the time seems like nothing? It'll be stupid, they'll do the job, and the "potential revolution" is stopped.

So you're saying that all of these soldiers would shoot at their families and friends? Therein lies the problem of stopping revolutions. I'm not talking about 35 people carrying signs saying change government now! I'm talking serious bloodshed, when the American people are finally tired of getting shafted and they see all that they have lost. And as I said I don't think we should start a revolution now, i believe that the system is still salvageable. And due to Joe Schmoe would do just about anything if he thought everyone else was doing it, i almost said anything he thought was right, but that doesn't have to be the case as has been proved so many times.... Ans also at least at the moment the government can't "attack' these revolutions, freedom of expression, as long as they don't turn violent, but if it's serious it won't matter. My point is that the big wigs in Washington think they are invincible and the American people need to tell/show them they aren't, I think electing Scott Brown did wonders.

 

edit: on your above post, cops are citizens too

 

I also think it is worth special not that the other person "arguing" with you is a National Guard member, the exact person they would "send in".

You're talking extremes. I'm talking realistic here. A group of guys doing violence will be put down by cops/natural guard/ army/whoever. The things you're talking about would be somewhat that stage passes through, or, a large cooperative assault by idealistic extremists in which the chances are low. If you're caught, which the chances are high, the executive powers WILL STOP YOU, saying "for natural security/the defense of this country" and ignore your pity pleas of your right of "expression".

 

So its very unlikely that the revolution will get that out of hand; it'll get stopped in the planning stages or the starting small-operations. It'll never get to the point of "omfg it's a real revolution!". It'll be said they're fundamentals, pot-heads, who the hell knows before they'll be labeled as a revolutionary. It's not gonna happen in whole fell swoop because the people in this country don't enough balls nor motivation for it.

[Furah]

 

You guys seem to think the government is all powerful, and while I agree that Joe Schmoe probably wouldn't stand up for himself when he is being wronged, it is only a matter of time. And I don't have a very skewed view of the world, I see it as a messed up place that many people are trying to make better but keep getting in each others way or tripping each other in the process. And if you want to talk about revolution why did the colonies revolt??? Pretty much taxes, which were minuscule compared to what other places where bearing. And the guy who said the military will side with the government, every one of those men and women take and oath to protect and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United states, not any of the branches and not even the President. Also contrary to apparently popular belief the people in the military aren't stupid, and I honestly believe that many if not most of them would call the government on something truly over the line. And if you know anything about our special forces, imagine what kind of damage a "rouge" unit could do. Have you ever considered that the government gets away with the [cabbage] they do because everyone thinks that if they try to stand up to them they'll be locked up in some dark hole? I assure you there are not 300 million secret cells in America or even 10 million for that matter. I think all too often people forget they answer TO US, but these days no one is interested so they bend us over. And this thought just came to me Nick 6464, most revolutions in history have been minority revolutions, but since everyone else doesn't rush off to help the government they can and do succeed. Also never underestimate what one person can do to history with one small act, case in point the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. And also perhaps arresting revolutionaries could backfire on them, like the British in India with Gandhi, he went on a hunger strike and people screamed for him to be released. Also i think that the American people could be a lot greater, but we haven't had a solid leader in so long, and ones you might consider solid have been for just one side (Reagan, Obama). And while it is disheartening to see all of these surveys and documentaries that show how ignorant the average populace is, I believe that American, as evidenced throughout history thrive in the face of adversity. I guess in summary everyone shouldn't be so afraid of big brother. Eventually people will notice when their neighbors disappear after asking questions about the government, and just as we are doing right now, I can tell thousands or millions of people in a couple of minutes.

 

I apologize that this is pretty much a random compilation of thoughts but I just wrote as it came to me. Also i'm not suggesting the we all "grab our torch and pitchfork" and march to Washington, but neither can we stand by while politicians pick away at and pervert the idea of America.

 

Try standing up to the government here. You can't even own a gun for self defence purposes. Hell the government even tries to ban games where you can kill police. Most recent case in point was Left 4 Dead 2, where there was a riot zombie, the only one to get removed from the Australian version.

[SeanyTheSailor]

 

You guys seem to think the government is all powerful, and while I agree that Joe Schmoe probably wouldn't stand up for himself when he is being wronged, it is only a matter of time. And I don't have a very skewed view of the world, I see it as a messed up place that many people are trying to make better but keep getting in each others way or tripping each other in the process. And if you want to talk about revolution why did the colonies revolt??? Pretty much taxes, which were minuscule compared to what other places where bearing. And the guy who said the military will side with the government, every one of those men and women take and oath to protect and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United states, not any of the branches and not even the President. Also contrary to apparently popular belief the people in the military aren't stupid, and I honestly believe that many if not most of them would call the government on something truly over the line. And if you know anything about our special forces, imagine what kind of damage a "rouge" unit could do. Have you ever considered that the government gets away with the [cabbage] they do because everyone thinks that if they try to stand up to them they'll be locked up in some dark hole? I assure you there are not 300 million secret cells in America or even 10 million for that matter. I think all too often people forget they answer TO US, but these days no one is interested so they bend us over. And this thought just came to me Nick 6464, most revolutions in history have been minority revolutions, but since everyone else doesn't rush off to help the government they can and do succeed. Also never underestimate what one person can do to history with one small act, case in point the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. And also perhaps arresting revolutionaries could backfire on them, like the British in India with Gandhi, he went on a hunger strike and people screamed for him to be released. Also i think that the American people could be a lot greater, but we haven't had a solid leader in so long, and ones you might consider solid have been for just one side (Reagan, Obama). And while it is disheartening to see all of these surveys and documentaries that show how ignorant the average populace is, I believe that American, as evidenced throughout history thrive in the face of adversity. I guess in summary everyone shouldn't be so afraid of big brother. Eventually people will notice when their neighbors disappear after asking questions about the government, and just as we are doing right now, I can tell thousands or millions of people in a couple of minutes.

 

I apologize that this is pretty much a random compilation of thoughts but I just wrote as it came to me. Also i'm not suggesting the we all "grab our torch and pitchfork" and march to Washington, but neither can we stand by while politicians pick away at and pervert the idea of America.

 

Try standing up to the government here. You can't even own a gun for self defence purposes. Hell the government even tries to ban games where you can kill police. Most recent case in point was Left 4 Dead 2, where there was a riot zombie, the only one to get removed from the Australian version.

 

Sorry misread what you posted.

 

To Nick 6464: Until you actually act violent they can't do jack [cabbage] so there is an infinite amount of time to "recruit" people.

[magekillr]

Once again, radical-right wing nationalists like 321Ownage talk about "big government" and how much they love small government, yet they love gigantic defense budgets, and they love giving the executive power that violates their own rights in the Constitution. You don't know anyone is a terrorist until after their trial when the judge/jury says they are, but here he is, saying only terrorists have something to worry about. Never mind the fact that the Patriot Act isn't only used for terrorism, and is used in regular police work:

 

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/09/doj_admits_abuse_of_patriot_ac.php

 

Never mind the fact that Sprint just handed over information to the government regarding their geo-tracking system, where 50 million customers were tracked 8 million times:

 

http://paranoia.dubfire.net/2009/12/8-million-reasons-for-real-surveillance.html

 

Never mind the millions of abuses regarding emails...

 

The list is getting rather large, and here the small government conservatives are, cheering this government abuse on. This is why whenever I hear some Republican talking about small government, I know they're full of [cabbage]. What they mean by small government is "lower the tax rate to zero, but spy on me all you want. oh, and ramp up the police state to overdrive with more military funding." White male suburban bubbles, they're really hard to pop.

[SeanyTheSailor]

Once again, radical-right wing nationalists like 321Ownage talk about "big government" and how much they love small government, yet they love gigantic defense budgets, and they love giving the executive power that violates their own rights in the Constitution. You don't know anyone is a terrorist until after their trial when the judge/jury says they are, but here he is, saying only terrorists have something to worry about. Never mind the fact that the Patriot Act isn't only used for terrorism, and is used in regular police work:

 

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/09/doj_admits_abuse_of_patriot_ac.php

 

Never mind the fact that Sprint just handed over information to the government regarding their geo-tracking system, where 50 million customers were tracked 8 million times:

 

http://paranoia.dubfire.net/2009/12/8-million-reasons-for-real-surveillance.html

 

Never mind the millions of abuses regarding emails...

 

The list is getting rather large, and here the small government conservatives are, cheering this government abuse on. This is why whenever I hear some Republican talking about small government, I know they're full of [cabbage]. What they mean by small government is "lower the tax rate to zero, but spy on me all you want. oh, and ramp up the police state to overdrive with more military funding." White male suburban bubbles, they're really hard to pop.

 

This is the guy who I earlier said described me as a right-wing nutcase I'm not going to even read what he posted because I'm sure it will piss me off and spur an argument that will get nowhere and just take up space. I was able to read roccodog's post though and yes it was called the Alien and Sedition Act, I believe passed/proposed under John Adams because newspapers were very harsh and critical towards him. From what I understand it just said you couldn't badmouth the government.

[Alg]

Once again, radical-right wing nationalists like 321Ownage talk about "big government" and how much they love small government, yet they love gigantic defense budgets, and they love giving the executive power that violates their own rights in the Constitution. You don't know anyone is a terrorist until after their trial when the judge/jury says they are, but here he is, saying only terrorists have something to worry about. Never mind the fact that the Patriot Act isn't only used for terrorism, and is used in regular police work:

 

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/09/doj_admits_abuse_of_patriot_ac.php

 

Never mind the fact that Sprint just handed over information to the government regarding their geo-tracking system, where 50 million customers were tracked 8 million times:

 

http://paranoia.dubfire.net/2009/12/8-million-reasons-for-real-surveillance.html

 

Never mind the millions of abuses regarding emails...

 

The list is getting rather large, and here the small government conservatives are, cheering this government abuse on. This is why whenever I hear some Republican talking about small government, I know they're full of [cabbage]. What they mean by small government is "lower the tax rate to zero, but spy on me all you want. oh, and ramp up the police state to overdrive with more military funding." White male suburban bubbles, they're really hard to pop.

Did... Did you even read his posts? *sigh*

If you're just going to post to accuse him of being a far-right radical without actually addressing his post's content you're worse than he is.

 

Never mind that the original thread isn't about some Republican president, either. It's Obama extending the patriot act.

[Vulxai]

To Nick 6464: Until you actually act violent they can't do jack [cabbage] so there is an infinite amount of time to "recruit" people.

 

Actually they can. If they catch wind of your little thing, which they WILL because I can guarantee you there are civilians who keep tabs on their neighborhood and inform the government of what's been going on, it's called InfraGuard. And if they find out about it, they'll find out what it's about, and if they have even the slightest hint that you guys are planning some sort of rebellion or revolution, they'll put an end to it and call it a risk to national security or something with the intent of treason.

[SeanyTheSailor]

To Nick 6464: Until you actually act violent they can't do jack [cabbage] so there is an infinite amount of time to "recruit" people.

 

Actually they can. If they catch wind of your little thing, which they WILL because I can guarantee you there are civilians who keep tabs on their neighborhood and inform the government of what's been going on, it's called InfraGuard. And if they find out about it, they'll find out what it's about, and if they have even the slightest hint that you guys are planning some sort of rebellion or revolution, they'll put an end to it and call it a risk to national security or something with the intent of treason.

I guess your right. In a corrupt government situation like we are talking about they can spin anything to be anything. Still, I believe in the American people. It's kind of an odd line, it seems obvious that a government should be able to put down a rebellion early, but our first Amendment in my opinion doesn't allow this (as long as they aren't violent).

 

To a local guy: I'm not going to hide the fact that I am far right conservative, but it still disgusts me that in every political topic I post in that guy comes in and starts slinging mud. My opinion is this, forgive me I forget who said it, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

Also i should probably say this, the more I hear about the Patriot Act the less i like it, it seems like an easy path to government abuse, but I think IF USED PROPERLY it is exactly what we should be doing. I have the same opinion on national security as I do my own household, if you enter it without my permission, I will assume you are doing so with violent and lethal intent and will not hesitate to replace your organs with lead. To summarize if I think you are going to harm what I love I will do whatever it takes to make you wish you'd never come here.

[Vulxai]

To Nick 6464: Until you actually act violent they can't do jack [cabbage] so there is an infinite amount of time to "recruit" people.

 

Actually they can. If they catch wind of your little thing, which they WILL because I can guarantee you there are civilians who keep tabs on their neighborhood and inform the government of what's been going on, it's called InfraGuard. And if they find out about it, they'll find out what it's about, and if they have even the slightest hint that you guys are planning some sort of rebellion or revolution, they'll put an end to it and call it a risk to national security or something with the intent of treason.

I guess your right. In a corrupt government situation like we are talking about they can spin anything to be anything. Still, I believe in the American people. It's kind of an odd line, it seems obvious that a government should be able to put down a rebellion early, but our first Amendment in my opinion doesn't allow this (as long as they aren't violent).

 

To a local guy: I'm not going to hide the fact that I am far right conservative, but it still disgusts me that in every political topic I post in that guy comes in and starts slinging mud. My opinion is this, forgive me I forget who said it, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

Also i should probably say this, the more I hear about the Patriot Act the less i like it, it seems like an easy path to government abuse, but I think IF USED PROPERLY it is exactly what we should be doing. I have the same opinion on national security as I do my own household, if you enter it without my permission, I will assume you are doing so with violent and lethal intent and will not hesitate to replace your organs with lead. To summarize if I think you are going to harm what I love I will do whatever it takes to make you wish you'd never come here.

 

While we do have the freedom of speech and assembly, if it does in fact threaten our national security (or if they can somehow spin it into that way), it will be put down. But your last point is exactly how the government feels, if they feel threatened, they'll make you wish you hadn't threatened them, so to speak.

[SeanyTheSailor]

To Nick 6464: Until you actually act violent they can't do jack [cabbage] so there is an infinite amount of time to "recruit" people.

 

Actually they can. If they catch wind of your little thing, which they WILL because I can guarantee you there are civilians who keep tabs on their neighborhood and inform the government of what's been going on, it's called InfraGuard. And if they find out about it, they'll find out what it's about, and if they have even the slightest hint that you guys are planning some sort of rebellion or revolution, they'll put an end to it and call it a risk to national security or something with the intent of treason.

I guess your right. In a corrupt government situation like we are talking about they can spin anything to be anything. Still, I believe in the American people. It's kind of an odd line, it seems obvious that a government should be able to put down a rebellion early, but our first Amendment in my opinion doesn't allow this (as long as they aren't violent).

 

To a local guy: I'm not going to hide the fact that I am far right conservative, but it still disgusts me that in every political topic I post in that guy comes in and starts slinging mud. My opinion is this, forgive me I forget who said it, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

Also i should probably say this, the more I hear about the Patriot Act the less i like it, it seems like an easy path to government abuse, but I think IF USED PROPERLY it is exactly what we should be doing. I have the same opinion on national security as I do my own household, if you enter it without my permission, I will assume you are doing so with violent and lethal intent and will not hesitate to replace your organs with lead. To summarize if I think you are going to harm what I love I will do whatever it takes to make you wish you'd never come here.

 

While we do have the freedom of speech and assembly, if it does in fact threaten our national security (or if they can somehow spin it into that way), it will be put down. But your last point is exactly how the government feels, if they feel threatened, they'll make you wish you hadn't threatened them, so to speak.

This is kind of a question directly toward you, what would it take for you to say hold up, this is wrong I'm not doing this any more. I'm not asking in an angry/aggressive way, I'm just kind of curious, because being a National Guardsman, in this situation we have been discussing you would be the branch that would be used, at least at first.

 

Also at its very moment if a revolt were to spring up the government would be in a bit of a tight spot since most of our troops are overseas(this is if they wanted to use them). But I really think that the military would say we're not doing this, if you're cracking skulls in Oklahoma and your family lives in Rhode Island you'd have to wonder, is this happening to my family? Then they'd want to get back to their families or they would at least lighten up.

[1230abcz]

I actually trust my government... Believe it or not, there's actually a difference between rationality and conspiracy.

[The Dark Lord]

 

Also at its very moment if a revolt were to spring up the government would be in a bit of a tight spot since most of our troops are overseas(this is if they wanted to use them).

 

We have a 1.5 million-strong standing army, and we have about another 1.5 million in reserves. Just saying.

 

I actually trust my government... Believe it or not, there's actually a difference between rationality and conspiracy.

 

I think that we're all being hypothetical. It's a type of what if? scenario... "What if the government becomes bad? What do we do about it?"

[magekillr]

Once again, radical-right wing nationalists like 321Ownage talk about "big government" and how much they love small government, yet they love gigantic defense budgets, and they love giving the executive power that violates their own rights in the Constitution. You don't know anyone is a terrorist until after their trial when the judge/jury says they are, but here he is, saying only terrorists have something to worry about. Never mind the fact that the Patriot Act isn't only used for terrorism, and is used in regular police work:

 

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/09/doj_admits_abuse_of_patriot_ac.php

 

Never mind the fact that Sprint just handed over information to the government regarding their geo-tracking system, where 50 million customers were tracked 8 million times:

 

http://paranoia.dubfire.net/2009/12/8-million-reasons-for-real-surveillance.html

 

Never mind the millions of abuses regarding emails...

 

The list is getting rather large, and here the small government conservatives are, cheering this government abuse on. This is why whenever I hear some Republican talking about small government, I know they're full of [cabbage]. What they mean by small government is "lower the tax rate to zero, but spy on me all you want. oh, and ramp up the police state to overdrive with more military funding." White male suburban bubbles, they're really hard to pop.

Did... Did you even read his posts? *sigh*

If you're just going to post to accuse him of being a far-right radical without actually addressing his post's content you're worse than he is.

 

Never mind that the original thread isn't about some Republican president, either. It's Obama extending the patriot act.

 

Of course I read his posts. He supports Obama extending the Patriot Act, and has said, and I quote:

 

If they have good reason to suspect you as a terrorist I'd let them do a lot more than tap your phone. The only reason you should be scared is if you think they'll make a mistake, and the only reason I could see that happening is if your acting like a terrorist. So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

I addressed this in my post. They're not using it just for terrorism, and are in fact using it far more when it comes to law enforcement. Besides, as MLK once said:

 

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

These are basic civil liberties, and they extend to not only me, but to our enemies as well. No one should cheer lead the erosion of our Constitution.

 

Does it look like I care who extends it? I vote for ideology, not party. I can't wait until the Democrats lose a lot of their people in the House and the Senate. Sure, the Republicans are bat [cabbage] insane and far to the right barring a select few (Olympia Snowe is center-right, like a lot of Southern Democrats, for example), but maybe they'll realize what Ted Kennedy said is true and has always been true:

 

“If the Democrats run for cover, if we become pale carbon copies of the opposition, we will lose — and deserve to lose. The last thing this country needs is two Republican parties.”

 

I voted for Obama, but he lost my support a long time ago; he barely had it to begin with, he's a conservative. The only area I can even commend him is foreign policy (and I'd give him an A+), and a lot of people on my side hate him for that (I think it's wrong to leave Afghanistan, just as I thought it was wrong for Reagan to leave them in the 1980's. It's his fault the country is in such a mess). The man trashes the Constitution just as much as Bush. He's not quite as bad, but his civil liberties record has been appalling. He's a chicken weakling who backs down at the slightest bit of controversy. And when it comes to the current Republican party, that includes anything he wants to do. This trial balloon makes me want to throw up:

 

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/03/05/obama/index.html

 

Yeah, he hasn't backed down yet, but just the mere act of throwing up a trial balloon shows weakness. Why the trial balloons? Why not fight back against these idiots in Congress, and take it straight to the American people...bring families who had victims involved to fight with you, I'm sure they want justice.

[superson]

So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

So simple solution, don't act like a Muslim.

 

(Note: this was intended to be humerous, and was NOT insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. It was [humerously] insinuating that Americans and our governmnet have an unjustifiable bias against/fear of Muslims.)

[Vulxai]

 

This is kind of a question directly toward you, what would it take for you to say hold up, this is wrong I'm not doing this any more. I'm not asking in an angry/aggressive way, I'm just kind of curious, because being a National Guardsman, in this situation we have been discussing you would be the branch that would be used, at least at first.

 

That's actually a really tough question, but if I felt that it was a matter of keeping our freedoms and our way of life as we know it, I'd let the revolt happen. If it's people rioting over an abortion ban or some reason like that, I wouldn't stand down.

[SeanyTheSailor]

So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

So simple solution, don't act like a Muslim.

 

(Note: this was intended to be humerous, and was NOT insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. It was [humerously] insinuating that Americans and our governmnet have an unjustifiable bias against/fear of Muslims.)

While I have no problem with Muslims your statement that it is unjustifiable is laughable, maybe you missed when Muslim extremists flew planes into our buildings. In my opinion it's amazing that NOT EVERYONE hates them. Consider they attacked us AS A PEOPLE, not one guy because he was American. So while i do believe it is wrong i think it is more than understandable or "justifiable".

[Alg]

So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

So simple solution, don't act like a Muslim.

 

(Note: this was intended to be humerous, and was NOT insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. It was [humerously] insinuating that Americans and our governmnet have an unjustifiable bias against/fear of Muslims.)

While I have no problem with Muslims your statement that it is unjustifiable is laughable, maybe you missed when Muslim extremists flew planes into our buildings. In my opinion it's amazing that NOT EVERYONE hates them. Consider they attacked us AS A PEOPLE, not one guy because he was American. So while i do believe it is wrong i think it is more than understandable or "justifiable".

Considering that it wasn't each and every one of the billion or so Muslims that did so, but a small extremist group... It IS unjustifiable to hate many for the actions of a few.

[Vulxai]

So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

So simple solution, don't act like a Muslim.

 

(Note: this was intended to be humerous, and was NOT insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. It was [humerously] insinuating that Americans and our governmnet have an unjustifiable bias against/fear of Muslims.)

While I have no problem with Muslims your statement that it is unjustifiable is laughable, maybe you missed when Muslim extremists flew planes into our buildings. In my opinion it's amazing that NOT EVERYONE hates them. Consider they attacked us AS A PEOPLE, not one guy because he was American. So while i do believe it is wrong i think it is more than understandable or "justifiable".

Considering that it wasn't each and every one of the billion or so Muslims that did so, but a small extremist group... It IS unjustifiable to hate many for the actions of a few.

 

Exactly. If you'd hate every muslim for the acts of a few, I'd have to call you Hitler as an analogy.

[The Dark Lord]

While on the Hitler topic, a young Jew who fled to Paris murdered a German diplomat in the German Embassy. This sparked the Kristallnacht because it gave the Nazis a chance to appeal to the people and "prove" that the Jews were really evil people. ;)

[SeanyTheSailor]

So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

So simple solution, don't act like a Muslim.

 

(Note: this was intended to be humerous, and was NOT insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. It was [humerously] insinuating that Americans and our governmnet have an unjustifiable bias against/fear of Muslims.)

While I have no problem with Muslims your statement that it is unjustifiable is laughable, maybe you missed when Muslim extremists flew planes into our buildings. In my opinion it's amazing that NOT EVERYONE hates them. Consider they attacked us AS A PEOPLE, not one guy because he was American. So while i do believe it is wrong i think it is more than understandable or "justifiable".

Considering that it wasn't each and every one of the billion or so Muslims that did so, but a small extremist group... It IS unjustifiable to hate many for the actions of a few.

 

Exactly. If you'd hate every muslim for the acts of a few, I'd have to call you Hitler as an analogy.

While I have no argument that very few Muslims are extremists many more than people realize are anti-American. And before one of you starts screaming "I'M MUSLIM AND I DONT HATE AMERICA!" just stop. I believe our view as Americans is very narrow of the world, our media focuses on stupid thing's like tiger woods affair while the Israelis captured an Iranian ship smuggling tons of weapons! And apparently we got bored of the Iranian people protesting the vote, well after we got bored guess what happened there were "trials" and people who opposed Ahmedenijad were killed. All we see is little kids saying "Thank you America!" And that's dandy, but what we don't see is kids that same age yelling "Death to America!" which yes, does happen. and any time someone tries to show us that many of these people DO NOT LIKE US they are immediately labeled racists and liars. OPEN YOUR EYES the world is not the movies where the bad guy realizes he was wrong in the end! Iran is developing new nuclear plants and all we are doing is "Imposing Tough Sanctions"?!? Yeah that's working just great. I apologize for my long rant but it's been brewing as for the original topic, I've never been good at expressing my opinions when they are complex so forgive me and I'm no longer going to try. Also what I think I didn't convey and maybe some of you don't understand, is that ignorance and sensationalism makes anything make sense.

[Alg]

Really? Last time I checked there were around one billion Muslims on earth. A very small fraction of them are in the terrorist groups that the US is opposed to. If the rest hate us it's because of what we've done since then, which is quite honestly deserved on our part. Let's be honest here, at the moment the United States is occupying their country to impose its own values on them.

 

Not to say anything about the war being unjustified, I don't want to get into that, but the way we are waging it is causing more problems than when we started it.

[Vulxai]

So simple solution, don't act like a terrorist.

 

So simple solution, don't act like a Muslim.

 

(Note: this was intended to be humerous, and was NOT insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists. It was [humerously] insinuating that Americans and our governmnet have an unjustifiable bias against/fear of Muslims.)

While I have no problem with Muslims your statement that it is unjustifiable is laughable, maybe you missed when Muslim extremists flew planes into our buildings. In my opinion it's amazing that NOT EVERYONE hates them. Consider they attacked us AS A PEOPLE, not one guy because he was American. So while i do believe it is wrong i think it is more than understandable or "justifiable".

Considering that it wasn't each and every one of the billion or so Muslims that did so, but a small extremist group... It IS unjustifiable to hate many for the actions of a few.

 

Exactly. If you'd hate every muslim for the acts of a few, I'd have to call you Hitler as an analogy.

While I have no argument that very few Muslims are extremists many more than people realize are anti-American. And before one of you starts screaming "I'M MUSLIM AND I DONT HATE AMERICA!" just stop. I believe our view as Americans is very narrow of the world, our media focuses on stupid thing's like tiger woods affair while the Israelis captured an Iranian ship smuggling tons of weapons! And apparently we got bored of the Iranian people protesting the vote, well after we got bored guess what happened there were "trials" and people who opposed Ahmedenijad were killed. All we see is little kids saying "Thank you America!" And that's dandy, but what we don't see is kids that same age yelling "Death to America!" which yes, does happen. and any time someone tries to show us that many of these people DO NOT LIKE US they are immediately labeled racists and liars. OPEN YOUR EYES the world is not the movies where the bad guy realizes he was wrong in the end! Iran is developing new nuclear plants and all we are doing is "Imposing Tough Sanctions"?!? Yeah that's working just great. I apologize for my long rant but it's been brewing as for the original topic, I've never been good at expressing my opinions when they are complex so forgive me and I'm no longer going to try. Also what I think I didn't convey and maybe some of you don't understand, is that ignorance and sensationalism makes anything make sense.

 

We're talking about muslims, not Iranians. While the vast majority of Iranians are Muslim, the vast majority of Muslims AREN'T Iranian. Can you really blame the Iranians for hating American, though? If a country came into your country and started a war for something you probably had no idea about (I'd really not get into the whole 9/11 thing, as my theories on it would get flamed like no other), would you like them?