Hamas executes 2 for Israeli collaboration

[Romy]

1. I don't remember this question, and I also don't see why I didn't answer- the answer is fairly simple. They never wanted Israel there- the minute Israel declared it's independent, all the bordering countries rushed to war against Israel. They didn't wake up one day and decide their neighbor has to die, that's what they've been thinking since day 1 (or even before that, issues had occured between Jews and arabs even during the Ottoman rule, and the British rule).

Jews and other Middle Eastern groups, specifically the Shamis (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine) have coincided together for a long time in peace. It was only until the European Jews started coming to the Middle East starting in 1897 when Zionism started to pick up that people were started to get annoyed with the Jews in Al Sham, particularly Palestine. The opinion of non-European Jews who resided mostly out of Palestine in the Middle East remained the same, as a brother-religion sort of view. The Middle East only completely erupted against the Jews when Israel was created from taking land away from the British Mandate of Palestine/Trans-Jordan by a UN resolution to create the dual states. From this we can see that (1) Arabs are not against Jews; rather, they are against Zionist European Jews who seize land from them and (2) It was acknowledged as Palestine unanimously internationally until 1947. It also just so happens that every major migration of Jews to Palestine in the pre-Israel period coincide with the beginning of a revolt. The mindset is not that Jews have to die, it is that the Zionist takeover of Palestine. I also know of the coexistence and peace between Middle Eastern people and Jews seeing as how my family ruled Walaayeh Al Sham and I have to hear stories like every day my grandmother feels like talking about it, it might not have been Palestine but they were in the same province.

 

The point of my post was to show hostility against Israel is because of their own intrusiveness and how it wasn't because they were Jews, it was because the Zionists were threatening the dream of having an independent Al Sham unjustly as they were a foreign element.

 

What are you talking about? Jews were highly discriminated against, and I'm being gentle with that statement, in Iraq, Iran, Morroco, and many others, before and after Israel was established. Violent treatment was not out of the ordinary during the Ottoman and British rule in Israel aswell. It wasn't a one-sided war, but you can be sure hatred is nothing new, to say the least.

[Romy]

Zionism = Terrorism

Zionism = Patriotism. Don't just throw statements into the basket, atleast try to support them.

 

European/Caucasian/Convert Jews should have never been allowed to settle in Palestine. It was never their land in the first place

Really? What was their land then? Europe of antisemitism or Russia of endless pogroms?

[obfuscator]

Correct you are. But just because others do it doesn't come close to making it ok for Israel to.

 

 

Double standards, can't damn them for being worse than you can any other country. Unless you are predisposed to a bias. The Chinese have done lots of shady things to it's own people and Tibet in 10 years, the mexican cartels stitch faces on soccer balls and terrorize people domestically, you're going to tell me that isreal is damned for having to make tough choices in a time of war? and they are surrounded by enemies.

 

 

This is being blown out of proportion IMO.

I'm not damning them for being worse than any other country at all - in fact as it goes Israel is nowhere near one of the worst abusers. But it still doesn't make it ok. I have a problem with any country that abuses human rights, including my own. However, as Israel is where the discussion is, that's the only country I brought up.

[Romy]

Correct you are. But just because others do it doesn't come close to making it ok for Israel to.

 

 

Double standards, can't damn them for being worse than you can any other country. Unless you are predisposed to a bias. The Chinese have done lots of shady things to it's own people and Tibet in 10 years, the mexican cartels stitch faces on soccer balls and terrorize people domestically, you're going to tell me that isreal is damned for having to make tough choices in a time of war? and they are surrounded by enemies.

 

 

This is being blown out of proportion IMO.

I'm not damning them for being worse than any other country at all - in fact as it goes Israel is nowhere near one of the worst abusers. But it still doesn't make it ok. I have a problem with any country that abuses human rights, including my own. However, as Israel is where the discussion is, that's the only country I brought up.

 

Israel is not the only country that fits our discussion...

[obfuscator]

Correct you are. But just because others do it doesn't come close to making it ok for Israel to.

 

 

Double standards, can't damn them for being worse than you can any other country. Unless you are predisposed to a bias. The Chinese have done lots of shady things to it's own people and Tibet in 10 years, the mexican cartels stitch faces on soccer balls and terrorize people domestically, you're going to tell me that isreal is damned for having to make tough choices in a time of war? and they are surrounded by enemies.

 

 

This is being blown out of proportion IMO.

I'm not damning them for being worse than any other country at all - in fact as it goes Israel is nowhere near one of the worst abusers. But it still doesn't make it ok. I have a problem with any country that abuses human rights, including my own. However, as Israel is where the discussion is, that's the only country I brought up.

 

Israel is not the only country that fits our discussion...

 

I'm not sure what you're asking me here - I admit launching rockets at innocent civilans (hamas) is just as bad if not worse than any human rights violations Israel commits. My point is that it still doesn't give Israel the right to ignore human rights (nor Palestine).

 

Interesting story btw: http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/796852--palestinian-doctor-spreads-message-of-life-death-and-peace

 

This is the attitude people need. Obviously one man is the tip of the iceberg - but if more people could show one tenth the selflessness of this man, this conflict would go away in a heartbeat.

[Romy]

Correct you are. But just because others do it doesn't come close to making it ok for Israel to.

 

 

Double standards, can't damn them for being worse than you can any other country. Unless you are predisposed to a bias. The Chinese have done lots of shady things to it's own people and Tibet in 10 years, the mexican cartels stitch faces on soccer balls and terrorize people domestically, you're going to tell me that isreal is damned for having to make tough choices in a time of war? and they are surrounded by enemies.

 

 

This is being blown out of proportion IMO.

I'm not damning them for being worse than any other country at all - in fact as it goes Israel is nowhere near one of the worst abusers. But it still doesn't make it ok. I have a problem with any country that abuses human rights, including my own. However, as Israel is where the discussion is, that's the only country I brought up.

 

Israel is not the only country that fits our discussion...

 

I'm not sure what you're asking me here - I admit launching rockets at innocent civilans (hamas) is just as bad if not worse than any human rights violations Israel commits. My point is that it still doesn't give Israel the right to ignore human rights (nor Palestine).

 

Interesting story btw: http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/796852--palestinian-doctor-spreads-message-of-life-death-and-peace

 

This is the attitude people need. Obviously one man is the tip of the iceberg - but if more people could show one tenth the selflessness of this man, this conflict would go away in a heartbeat.

 

Truely breath-taking story.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Zionism = Patriotism.

Zionism is not patriotism, it is an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive and steal land that is not there's because those people are living in a fictitious past when the last time someone of their religion ruled that land was 40BC and any Middle Eastern person has more genetic similarities with the Israelites than the European Jews who seized the land. There are devote Jews who do not advocate Zionism and it is incredibly laughable that anyone would validate Zionism by them being the original people there when their own holy book says they come from Mesopotamia and traveled to the land of the Canaanites.

[Romy]

Zionism = Patriotism.

Zionism is not patriotism, it is an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive and steal land that is not there's because those people are living in a fictitious past when the last time someone of their religion ruled that land was 40BC and any Middle Eastern person has more genetic similarities with the Israelites than the European Jews who seized the land. There are devote Jews who do not advocate Zionism and it is incredibly laughable that anyone would validate Zionism by them being the original people there when their own holy book says they come from Mesopotamia and traveled to the land of the Canaanites.

 

Sure, that's the definition of Zionism... [/sarcasm]

 

 

 

The reason the more strict religous Jews aren't Zionist is that it collides with some of the Bible's principles, not because it's "an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive...".

 

 

 

Zionism really is patriotism, or as Wikipedia puts it- "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

If that's not patriotism, I don't know what is.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Zionism = Patriotism.

Zionism is not patriotism, it is an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive and steal land that is not there's because those people are living in a fictitious past when the last time someone of their religion ruled that land was 40BC and any Middle Eastern person has more genetic similarities with the Israelites than the European Jews who seized the land. There are devote Jews who do not advocate Zionism and it is incredibly laughable that anyone would validate Zionism by them being the original people there when their own holy book says they come from Mesopotamia and traveled to the land of the Canaanites.

 

Sure, that's the definition of Zionism... [/sarcasm]

 

 

 

The reason the more strict religous Jews aren't Zionist is that it collides with some of the Bible's principles, not because it's "an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive...".

 

 

 

Zionism really is patriotism, or as Wikipedia puts it- "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

If that's not patriotism, I don't know what is.

If you want to quote Wikipedia, fine. Under the article: "The revisionists advocated the formation of a Jewish Army in Palestine to force the Arab population to accept mass Jewish migration." That is a bit intrusive would you not say, the formulation of an army to force native people to accept a migration of foreign colonizers?

 

As for your beloved UN [because you claimed Israel has the right to exist because of a UN vote, remember the countless ones against them]: The Organization of African Unity and the Non-Aligned Movement passed resolutions condemning Zionism and equating it with racism and apartheid during the early 1970s. The United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 3151 72 to 36, with 32 abstentions, in December 1973, stating that there was an "unholy alliance between South African racism and Zionism." [31] Resolution 3379, stating in its conclusion that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination", passed in November 1975, with many Arab, African, South Asian, Latin American and Soviet bloc states voting in favor of it.[27][32] The resolution was opposed by most of the Western world.

 

Which was only repealed after the apartheid in South Africa was ended (which the South Africans drew parallel to with the Palestinians) and the Soviet government was collapsing, as well as Israel threatened to not partake in the Madrid Conference in 1991 unless it was repealed.

[Romy]

Zionism = Patriotism.

Zionism is not patriotism, it is an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive and steal land that is not there's because those people are living in a fictitious past when the last time someone of their religion ruled that land was 40BC and any Middle Eastern person has more genetic similarities with the Israelites than the European Jews who seized the land. There are devote Jews who do not advocate Zionism and it is incredibly laughable that anyone would validate Zionism by them being the original people there when their own holy book says they come from Mesopotamia and traveled to the land of the Canaanites.

 

Sure, that's the definition of Zionism... [/sarcasm]

 

 

 

The reason the more strict religous Jews aren't Zionist is that it collides with some of the Bible's principles, not because it's "an ideal that one of any nationality has the right to be intrusive...".

 

 

 

Zionism really is patriotism, or as Wikipedia puts it- "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

If that's not patriotism, I don't know what is.

 

 

If you want to quote Wikipedia, fine. Under the article: "The revisionists advocated the formation of a Jewish Army in Palestine to force the Arab population to accept mass Jewish migration." That is a bit intrusive would you not say, the formulation of an army to force native people to accept a migration of foreign colonizers?

Not any more than the USA, or perhaps with even more justifications, considering Jews are related to Israel.

Besides, you have got to understand what the Jewish people had to put up with. Antisemitic events occured largely througout Europe and Russia, while their peak is the Holocaust and the increasing level of pogroms in Russia. As it was, a valid, feasible solution had to be found, and Israel was the only logical choice, as that's where most Jews would turn to because of their bond to Israel.

 

As for your beloved UN [because you claimed Israel has the right to exist because of a UN vote, remember the countless ones against them]:

It's not my "beloved UN", I actually think the UN had lost it's power quite a bit, the UN vote was noted as means to show it was legal.

 

The Organization of African Unity and the Non-Aligned Movement passed resolutions condemning Zionism and equating it with racism and apartheid during the early 1970s. The United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 3151 72 to 36, with 32 abstentions, in December 1973, stating that there was an "unholy alliance between South African racism and Zionism." [31] Resolution 3379, stating in its conclusion that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination", passed in November 1975, with many Arab, African, South Asian, Latin American and Soviet bloc states voting in favor of it.[27][32] The resolution was opposed by most of the Western world.

 

Which was only repealed after the apartheid in South Africa was ended (which the South Africans drew parallel to with the Palestinians) and the Soviet government was collapsing, as well as Israel threatened to not partake in the Madrid Conference in 1991 unless it was repealed.

 

It's a shame you forgot to mention that- A. "There is evidence to suggest that anti-Zionism is sometimes used in place of or in order to forward antisemitic views under a more politically and socially acceptable term. sanitized term.[36] The word Zionist is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew and anti-Zionists may use motifs previously associated with antisemitism." and B."The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. "

 

I think it makes sense that Zionism is accused for things like the ones you listed, considering the above (point A), and yet you shouldn't forget the real goal(s) of Zionism- "Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state." and "Since the creation of the State of Israel, the World Zionist Organization has functioned mainly as an organization dedicated to assisting and encouraging Jews to migrate to Israel."

 

Zionism does not and never have encourage(d) apartheid or racism.

[magekillr]

Zionism does not and never have encourage(d) apartheid or racism.

 

Sorry for jumping into this conversation late, but I must interject here.

 

Are you kidding me, romy? Zionism is racist and nationalist by its very definition. So is the Arab Nationalist Movement. It doesn't have to advocate apartheid, but the Zionists in power DO advocate for it. By refusing to grant the Palestinians with their own state, to get all of the Israeli settlers to abandon their settlements, and to give back EJ, the Zionists are in fact practicing apartheid. This is especially evident in EJ, where Israel has annexed it, yet not given citizenship status to the Palestinians who live there. That is the definition of apartheid, romy. With the settlements expanding, Israel is desperately trying to annex the West Bank and to ethnically cleanse the region, forcing the remaining Palestinians into Gaza, Jordan and Lebanon. They're trying to do, unsuccessfully, what China did to Tibet: send settlers into the region, have them procreate, and the population of the Israelis overshadows that of the Palestinians. Welp, too bad that won't work, as the Palestinians far outnumber the Israelis. I welcome them to extend their borders. Make my day, Zionists. Let's see you rationalize not giving rights to all of the Palestinians under your illegally-annexed land, not just those in EJ.

 

I don't favor either side, but I empathize and sympathize with the Palestinians far more than I do with the Israelis. Nothing less than a one-state ruled by a secular government is good enough for me; and giving all refugees the right of return.

 

In the mean time I can accept a two-state solution, I suppose, but I don't think it will end there. It's not going to be resolved until the apartheid ends, and both regions are unified under one secular flag.

 

So am I calling for an end to the Jewish identity of Israel? Perhaps. One cannot or rather should not base a nation-state upon a single religion. It is asking for inequity within the confines of that society and whatever minority communities may exist within said society. That's all there is to it. However, this extends to France and Germany as well, who refuse to allow Turkey to be admitted into the EU. Why? Because that would mean the European culture would be killed. And by European culture I mean white people would need to be around brown people; France and Germany wouldn't just be French and German people anymore. The horror! The free movement of people is the best weapon against nationalism and racism. Sorry, but "ethnic regions/states" are a thing of the past. Europe and Israel are going to have to accept that.

[Romy]

Zionism does not and never have encourage(d) apartheid or racism.

 

Are you kidding me, romy? Zionism is racist and nationalist by its very definition. So is the Arab Nationalist Movement.

For that, you'd have to define racist. If by racist you mean one race is superior to another, then no, Zionism is not racist. If by racist you mean Zionism is looking to forward establishment of a country to it's people (or now that it's been done, support it), then you can call it racist.

 

It doesn't have to advocate apartheid, but the Zionists in power DO advocate for it. By refusing to grant the Palestinians with their own state, to get all of the Israeli settlers to abandon their settlements, and to give back EJ, the Zionists are in fact practicing apartheid.

Jerusalem as a whole is Israel's capital for almost half a decade now, and building there is as legitimate as bulding in Tel-Aviv, Haifa, and any other city in Israel.

 

The illegal settlements are a crime, certainly, but they do not resemble apartheid by the original definition. The apartheid in Israel is an analogy more than it is actual apartheid.

 

This is especially evident in EJ, where Israel has annexed it, yet not given citizenship status to the Palestinians who live there. That is the definition of apartheid, romy.

I'm sorry? When Israel declared sovereignty over EJ in 67', it granted permanent Israeli residency to those Arab Jerusalemites that stayed there.

 

With the settlements expanding, Israel is desperately trying to annex the West Bank and to ethnically cleanse the region, forcing the remaining Palestinians into Gaza, Jordan and Lebanon. They're trying to do, unsuccessfully, what China did to Tibet: send settlers into the region, have them procreate, and the population of the Israelis overshadows that of the Palestinians. Welp, too bad that won't work, as the Palestinians far outnumber the Israelis. I welcome them to extend their borders. Make my day, Zionists. Let's see you rationalize not giving rights to all of the Palestinians under your illegally-annexed land, not just those in EJ.

Same as above, every time Israel declared sovereighty over a place, it granted permanent Israeli residency to the Arabs staying there. Those that weren't there did not receive such recognition by Israel, and that's wrong, but to go as far as naming that apartheid is taking it too far IMHO.

 

So am I calling for an end to the Jewish identity of Israel? Perhaps. One cannot or rather should not base a nation-state upon a single religion. It is asking for inequity within the confines of that society and whatever minority communities may exist within said society. That's all there is to it.

Israel is a Jewish state, that provides shelter and a home to Jewish people from all over the world. It is also a democracy, and as such, allowes all sorts of parties- including national-Arab parties, even those that want it's downfall. If any party that opposes Israel's current doctrine, gains enough votes to change it, so be it. But as long as it's a democracy, and as long as most of it's people agree to it's doctrine (like any other democracy in the world), then that's how it's going to be.

[Faux]

Yes, it was rightfully Israels'....hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean they have or had the right to just invade now.

 

Says who? Canada/US are built on Native American soil but no one cares (just an example). Invading isn't a right, but it can be a necessity.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Yes, it was rightfully Israels'....hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean they have or had the right to just invade now.

 

Says who? Canada/US are built on Native American soil but no one cares (just an example). Invading isn't a right, but it can be a necessity.

Yes but the Arabs are far more numerous, unrelenting and better understood than the Native Americans were.

 

Edit: Plus the Israelis are so highly offensive they've managed to also annoy the Iranians and Lebanese Christians who are not considered Arabs (as Iranians are Persian and Syrian Christians are Phoenician due to their intentional mountain isolation for 15 centuries).

[SeanyTheSailor]

It is my opinion that "reparations" should only be given to the people who the event actually happened to. And the establishment of Israel, if you don't consider that a reparation I don't know what you would. So for instance, the Japanese put into camps during WW2 if they asked to should be compensated, not their children or grandchildren but THEM SPECIFICALLY. Israel supposedly belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. Though this may sound biased, but I think it also applies to what ShadowFax said about the native Americans, as well as blacks for slavery.

 

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

 

In conclusion I think that in the end Israel will eventually collapse, reasons? They will eventually get less/ no foreign help, the Palestinians and anyone else fighting Israel aren't going away, and everyone's luck runs out. The sad thing is that the Israeli people are probably going to be poorly treated when/if this happens (and poorly treated may be an understatement) and then from the ashes of one f-up will rise another.

[fakeitormakeit2]

It is my opinion that "reparations" should only be given to the people who the event actually happened to. And the establishment of Israel, if you don't consider that a reparation I don't know what you would. So for instance, the Japanese put into camps during WW2 if they asked to should be compensated, not their children or grandchildren but THEM SPECIFICALLY. Israel supposedly belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. Though this may sound biased, but I think it also applies to what ShadowFax said about the native Americans, as well as blacks for slavery.

 

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

 

In conclusion I think that in the end Israel will eventually collapse, reasons? They will eventually get less/ no foreign help, the Palestinians and anyone else fighting Israel aren't going away, and everyone's luck runs out. The sad thing is that the Israeli people are probably going to be poorly treated when/if this happens (and poorly treated may be an understatement) and then from the ashes of one f-up will rise another.

Zionism is a political movement that soldified in the 19th century as antisemitic feelings in Europe were building and Jews wanted to go back and reclaim a nation of their own centered around Zion, the temple mount, which is a basic run through of Zionism. Some Jews do not support Israel for specific reasons like for instance it is not ruled by a king of the line of David therefore it is not a legitimate state of Israel. Other Jews actually have morals and feel bad about killing and containing a native population that the land belonged to.

 

I quickly made a map showing Israeli expansion:

[hide=Israel][/hide]

Yellow=What Israel is suppose to be

Red=Land partitioned for Palestinians in the Partition Proposal of 1947

1. Egypt- Sinai, which the US forced them to withdraw from

2. Lebanon- Southern half, they were kicked out by Hamas mostly

3. Syria- Golan Heights, they have an "early attack detection base" here, they're still to give it back to Syria

*Not noted. Egypt-Gaza Strip, technically its under Hamas (not an improvement) now but Israel walks into it like its their backyard.

 

It kinda looks like they're trying to do this hahaha:

[hide=I know this is going to receive Romy criticism ]][/hide]

You're right Romy, they'd never do that. Cuz they already conquered the land of Philistine on the coast and they would never let Phoenicia get away :P

[Romy]

Yes, it was rightfully Israels'....hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean they have or had the right to just invade now.

 

Says who? Canada/US are built on Native American soil but no one cares (just an example). Invading isn't a right, but it can be a necessity.

Yes but the Arabs are far more numerous, unrelenting and better understood than the Native Americans were.

So what? What makes that right and that wrong? It definitely has nothing to do with their ability to communicate or how many they are, if it's wrong here, it's wrong there.

 

Edit: Plus the Israelis are so highly offensive they've managed to also annoy the Iranians and Lebanese Christians who are not considered Arabs (as Iranians are Persian and Syrian Christians are Phoenician due to their intentional mountain isolation for 15 centuries).

The Israelis are so offensive? They only ever started ONE war since Israel's establishment, and that war was initiated because the Israeli intelligence found out Eygept is about to attack the very same day. I keep brining it up because you seem to keep forgetting.

 

 

It also has nothing to do with how aggressive Israel is, because without it getting even a chance to be non-aggressive, a war started (like a minute after the Israeli declaration of independence). Personally, the conclusion I drew from that, is that Israel would be hated whether it did everything right and whether it did not.

[Romy]

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

No, you're not mistaken. Please do remember that Israel never went to wars in order to conquer or win land, throughout all of the Israeli wars, Israel always went to war because it was attacked first (and had to protect itself), minus the Six Days War.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

That's what war brings, I'm afraid. And any Arab staying in a land conquered by Israel, received permanent Israeli residency.

 

If you meant the illegal settlements, then I addressed that issue endlessly. If you still wish to get a response, PM me.

[Romy]

It is my opinion that "reparations" should only be given to the people who the event actually happened to. And the establishment of Israel, if you don't consider that a reparation I don't know what you would. So for instance, the Japanese put into camps during WW2 if they asked to should be compensated, not their children or grandchildren but THEM SPECIFICALLY. Israel supposedly belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. Though this may sound biased, but I think it also applies to what ShadowFax said about the native Americans, as well as blacks for slavery.

 

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

 

In conclusion I think that in the end Israel will eventually collapse, reasons? They will eventually get less/ no foreign help, the Palestinians and anyone else fighting Israel aren't going away, and everyone's luck runs out. The sad thing is that the Israeli people are probably going to be poorly treated when/if this happens (and poorly treated may be an understatement) and then from the ashes of one f-up will rise another.

Zionism is a political movement that soldified in the 19th century as antisemitic feelings in Europe were building and Jews wanted to go back and reclaim a nation of their own centered around Zion, the temple mount, which is a basic run through of Zionism. Some Jews do not support Israel for specific reasons like for instance it is not ruled by a king of the line of David therefore it is not a legitimate state of Israel. Other Jews actually have morals and feel bad about killing and containing a native population that the land belonged to.

 

I feel personally offended by this. Are you implying any Jew that supports Zionism doesn't have morals?

 

Also, most religous Jews that don't support Zionism do it because, supposedly, Israel should not be re-built until the Days of the messiah.

 

I quickly made a map showing Israeli expansion:

[hide=Israel][/hide]

Yellow=What Israel is suppose to be

Red=Land partitioned for Palestinians in the Partition Proposal of 1947

1. Egypt- Sinai, which the US forced them to withdraw from

2. Lebanon- Southern half, they were kicked out by Hamas mostly

3. Syria- Golan Heights, they have an "early attack detection base" here, they're still to give it back to Syria

*Not noted. Egypt-Gaza Strip, technically its under Hamas (not an improvement) now but Israel walks into it like its their backyard.

You always seem to forget that tiny detail of HOW these lands were conquered. Through war, and not with the intent to conquer land, and not war Israel even initiated (again, except for the Six Days War).

 

1. US asked, not forced.

2. You're misinformed, Israel withrawed from there on it's own after the war of October.

3. I'm afraid the Golan Heights are going to stay Israel's. Remember that Israel is not obliged to give up the land.

*You mean so that huge amounts of weapons won't be sent there and used on Israeli citizens? Or do you mean so that Israel could send supplies over there?

[SeanyTheSailor]

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

No, you're not mistaken. Please do remember that Israel never went to wars in order to conquer or win land, throughout all of the Israeli wars, Israel always went to war because it was attacked first (and had to protect itself), minus the Six Days War.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

That's what war brings, I'm afraid. And any Arab staying in aland conquered by Israel , received permanent Israeli residency.

 

If you meant the illegal settlements, then I addressed that issue endlessly. If you still wish to get a response, PM me.

You sir have just contradicted yourself on a huge scale, but I won't hammer it too much because I myself have fallen victim to my own bad wording.

[Romy]

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

No, you're not mistaken. Please do remember that Israel never went to wars in order to conquer or win land, throughout all of the Israeli wars, Israel always went to war because it was attacked first (and had to protect itself), minus the Six Days War.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

That's what war brings, I'm afraid. And any Arab staying in aland conquered by Israel , received permanent Israeli residency.

 

If you meant the illegal settlements, then I addressed that issue endlessly. If you still wish to get a response, PM me.

You sir have just contradicted yourself on a huge scale, but I won't hammer it too much because I myself have fallen victim to my own bad wording.

 

I didn't contradict myself, you just did not read it properly.

 

I said Israel never went to war in order to conquer land, not that it never conquered land. In other words, Israel went to wars in order to protect itself, and during those wars, conquered land.

 

 

Also, I'm a girl :).

[obfuscator]

Yes, it was rightfully Israels'....hundreds if not thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean they have or had the right to just invade now.

 

Says who? Canada/US are built on Native American soil but no one cares (just an example). Invading isn't a right, but it can be a necessity.

I care, actually. Natives are treated like absolute crap here and the government does absolutely nothing about it. It's something that would be a vote-changer for me were anyone to actually propose a solution.

[SeanyTheSailor]

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

No, you're not mistaken. Please do remember that Israel never went to wars in order to conquer or win land, throughout all of the Israeli wars, Israel always went to war because it was attacked first (and had to protect itself), minus the Six Days War.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

That's what war brings, I'm afraid. And any Arab staying in aland conquered by Israel , received permanent Israeli residency.

 

If you meant the illegal settlements, then I addressed that issue endlessly. If you still wish to get a response, PM me.

You sir have just contradicted yourself on a huge scale, but I won't hammer it too much because I myself have fallen victim to my own bad wording.

 

I didn't contradict myself, you just did not read it properly.

 

I said Israel never went to war in order to conquer land, not that it never conquered land. In other words, Israel went to wars in order to protect itself, and during those wars, conquered land.

 

 

Also, I'm a girl :).

I apologize for calling you sir then. But if land was conquered then it wasn't really defensive. Also no other country would get away with the stuff that Israel pulls.

[Romy]

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

No, you're not mistaken. Please do remember that Israel never went to wars in order to conquer or win land, throughout all of the Israeli wars, Israel always went to war because it was attacked first (and had to protect itself), minus the Six Days War.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

That's what war brings, I'm afraid. And any Arab staying in aland conquered by Israel , received permanent Israeli residency.

 

If you meant the illegal settlements, then I addressed that issue endlessly. If you still wish to get a response, PM me.

You sir have just contradicted yourself on a huge scale, but I won't hammer it too much because I myself have fallen victim to my own bad wording.

 

I didn't contradict myself, you just did not read it properly.

 

I said Israel never went to war in order to conquer land, not that it never conquered land. In other words, Israel went to wars in order to protect itself, and during those wars, conquered land.

 

 

Also, I'm a girl :).

I apologize for calling you sir then. But if land was conquered then it wasn't really defensive. Also no other country would get away with the stuff that Israel pulls.

 

Really? Why not? Israel did not initiate those wars, it got attacked and reacted. When, in war, you can move forward, you do.

[SeanyTheSailor]

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

"Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is an international nationalist political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the existence of a sovereign, Jewish national homeland. Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state."

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

No, you're not mistaken. Please do remember that Israel never went to wars in order to conquer or win land, throughout all of the Israeli wars, Israel always went to war because it was attacked first (and had to protect itself), minus the Six Days War.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

That's what war brings, I'm afraid. And any Arab staying in aland conquered by Israel , received permanent Israeli residency.

 

If you meant the illegal settlements, then I addressed that issue endlessly. If you still wish to get a response, PM me.

You sir have just contradicted yourself on a huge scale, but I won't hammer it too much because I myself have fallen victim to my own bad wording.

 

I didn't contradict myself, you just did not read it properly.

 

I said Israel never went to war in order to conquer land, not that it never conquered land. In other words, Israel went to wars in order to protect itself, and during those wars, conquered land.

 

 

Also, I'm a girl :).

I apologize for calling you sir then. But if land was conquered then it wasn't really defensive. Also no other country would get away with the stuff that Israel pulls.

 

Really? Why not? Israel did not initiate those wars, it got attacked and reacted. When, in war, you can move forward, you do.

I understand what you are trying to say, but then conquered is the wrong word. Occupied would be better. And as to who started them both sides claim the other did, and each has something that they point to.