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Are you talking about physical war? There's obvious proof no wars were initiated by Israel, except for the Six Days War. I don't think anyone would claim otherwise, and if they do, they're lying...

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Are you talking about physical war? There's obvious proof no wars were initiated by Israel, except for the Six Days War. I don't think anyone would claim otherwise, and if they do, they're lying...

OBVIOUS PROOF huh? I'm sure if you asked the Nazi's they'd say that Kristallnacht was OBVIOUS because that Jewish guy killed the German guy who worked at the embassy. And if you don't think anyone would argue otherwise perhaps you should come outside your shell and realize, if there is something to be believed, someone somewhere believes it. Also by saying that they are lying, that is foolishly overconfident, not to mention as long as they bring up an actual event they aren't lying, it may be a crappy reason but it isn't a lie.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Wars were physically started by other countries around Israel, there's historical proof for that, I don't think the countries themselves would deny that. Israel just did not attack first, there's no argument over that...

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Wars were physically started by other countries around Israel, there's historical proof for that, I don't think the countries themselves would deny that. Israel just did not attack first, there's no argument over that...

There is an argument over everything. Just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean everyone else believes it. I personally have no belief on the matter of who started Israels wars, I just think it's foolish of you to say "It's obvious." or "Everyone knows that." When there are people in the world who still believe the Earth is flat, I can assure you there are people who think that Israel started some wars.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Wars were physically started by other countries around Israel, there's historical proof for that, I don't think the countries themselves would deny that. Israel just did not attack first, there's no argument over that...

There is an argument over everything.

 

I don't get where you're coming from. Wars are always initiated by one side, they can't be initiated by both sides at the same time. The exact date, hour, and place are noted for every attack, every time war initiates.

 

Again, I don't think the countries themselves would deny the fact that they attacked first, and I have no idea why anyone would claim otherwise (unless, ofcourse, they're lying).

 

Every war (in the world) is triggered by 1 side, no one but fools and liars would claim other wise, and I can say that with great confidence because I know the truth. I really have absolutly no idea where you're coming from, no one denies the noted facts.

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Wars were physically started by other countries around Israel, there's historical proof for that, I don't think the countries themselves would deny that. Israel just did not attack first, there's no argument over that...

There is an argument over everything.

 

I don't get where you're coming from. Wars are always initiated by one side, they can't be initiated by both sides at the same time. The exact date. hour, and place are noted for every attack, every time war initiates.

 

Again, I don't think the countries themselves would deny the fact that they attacked first, and I have no idea why anyone would claim otherwise (unless, ofcourse, they're lying).

Who gets to decide what counts as an attack? One side can say oh well they attacked us here and then. But the other side can say well look they did this here and then which we think was an attack.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Wars were physically started by other countries around Israel, there's historical proof for that, I don't think the countries themselves would deny that. Israel just did not attack first, there's no argument over that...

There is an argument over everything.

 

I don't get where you're coming from. Wars are always initiated by one side, they can't be initiated by both sides at the same time. The exact date. hour, and place are noted for every attack, every time war initiates.

 

Again, I don't think the countries themselves would deny the fact that they attacked first, and I have no idea why anyone would claim otherwise (unless, ofcourse, they're lying).

Who gets to decide what counts as an attack? One side can say oh well they attacked us here and then. But the other side can say well look they did this here and then which we think was an attack.

 

Wow, are you even serious? If you are, then no offence, but I think you don't even realize what going to war means. Wars against Israel were initiated by one side, the other side physically went to war against Israel, and Israel reacted.

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I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Wars were physically started by other countries around Israel, there's historical proof for that, I don't think the countries themselves would deny that. Israel just did not attack first, there's no argument over that...

There is an argument over everything.

 

I don't get where you're coming from. Wars are always initiated by one side, they can't be initiated by both sides at the same time. The exact date. hour, and place are noted for every attack, every time war initiates.

 

Again, I don't think the countries themselves would deny the fact that they attacked first, and I have no idea why anyone would claim otherwise (unless, ofcourse, they're lying).

Who gets to decide what counts as an attack? One side can say oh well they attacked us here and then. But the other side can say well look they did this here and then which we think was an attack.

 

Wow, are you even serious? If you are, then no offence, but I think you don't even realize what going to war means. Wars against Israel were initiated by one side, the other side physically went to war against Israel, and Israel reacted.

You are so sure of your opinion I don't even think you're trying to understand what I'm saying. You refuse to believe that Israel possibly could have done anything wrong because the fact that you WANT TO BELIEVE say so. Ask some other people, and they'll tell you the facts THEY WANT TO BELIEVE.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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Umm... It's not my opinion, it's facts. Just like the sun shines every day is a fact. You can check those facts, and validate those facts, again, and again. I don't think anyone at all denies what war was initiated by whom. Go to Wikipedia and check it if you want.

 

 

Also, I can tell you myself that Israel had been, and currently is, doing things wrong. I don't refuse to believe Israel could have done anything wrong, I know it has, and is.

 

 

Are you legit?

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Umm... It's not my opinion, it's facts. Just like the sun shines every day is a fact. You can check those facts, and validate those facts, again, and again. I don't think anyone at all denies what war was initiated by whom. Go to Wikipedia and check it if you want.

 

 

Also, I can tell you myself that Israel had, and currently is, doing things wrong. I don't refuse to believe Israel could have done anything wrong, I know it has, and is.

 

 

Are you legit?

I'm trying really hard to make you understand, what you consider FACTS, not everyone considers FACTS. yes you can say A happened then therefore it started this war. Someone else can and will say B happened before A therefore it started the war. I'm not even really disagreeing with you. As for your sun analogy, one person can say the sun rose at 6:03, another person can say that it rose at 6:01. Who is right? If you wanted to you could choose some clock that is considered a "master clock" and go by that. But in the real world not all situations have a "master clock". So the only way to decide who is wrong is to assume that the other guy is wrong. I don't know how to make it more simple than that.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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Umm... It's not my opinion, it's facts. Just like the sun shines every day is a fact. You can check those facts, and validate those facts, again, and again. I don't think anyone at all denies what war was initiated by whom. Go to Wikipedia and check it if you want.

 

 

Also, I can tell you myself that Israel had, and currently is, doing things wrong. I don't refuse to believe Israel could have done anything wrong, I know it has, and is.

 

 

Are you legit?

I'm trying really hard to make you understand, what you consider FACTS, not everyone considers FACTS.

If anyone in the world doesn't consider it a fact, he's simply wrong (and frankly, I never heard of anyone claim certain wars were initiated by someone else, I'm pretty sure we're arguing over nothing).

 

yes you can say A happened then therefore it started this war. Someone else can and will say B happened before A therefore it started the war.

I don't think anyone even discussed "B", everyone knows "A" is what started the war PHYSICALLY. And you don't even need to count on my, supposedly biased, claim, go to other objective sources and find out I'm speaking the truth. Wikipedia could be a good start right there.

 

As for your sun analogy, one person can say the sun rose at 6:03, another person can say that it rose at 6:01.

Perhaps, but no one would deny the sun rose.

 

Who is right? If you wanted to you could choose some clock that is considered a "master clock" and go by that. But in the real world not all situations have a "master clock". So the only way to decide who is wrong is to assume that the other guy is wrong. I don't know how to make it more simple than that.

Again, the "master clock" could help you find out who really was right about the exact time the sun rose, but no one would deny the sun rose.

 

 

 

 

Again, I'm pretty sure we're arguing over nothing, as I never heard of anyone denying who started each specific war. I have heard of people arguing over the reasons the wars started, or why they should/shouldn't have, but never ever have I heard anyone argue who initiated the wars.

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Umm... It's not my opinion, it's facts. Just like the sun shines every day is a fact. You can check those facts, and validate those facts, again, and again. I don't think anyone at all denies what war was initiated by whom. Go to Wikipedia and check it if you want.

 

 

Also, I can tell you myself that Israel had, and currently is, doing things wrong. I don't refuse to believe Israel could have done anything wrong, I know it has, and is.

 

 

Are you legit?

I'm trying really hard to make you understand, what you consider FACTS, not everyone considers FACTS.

If anyone in the world doesn't cosndier it a fact, he's simply wrong (and frankly, I never heard of anyone claim certain wars were initiated by someone else, I'm pretty sure we're arguing over nothing).

 

yes you can say A happened then therefore it started this war. Someone else can and will say B happened before A therefore it started the war.

I don't think anyone even discussed "B", everyone knows "A" is what started the war PHYSICALLY. And you don't even need to count on my, supposedly biased, claim, go to other objective sources and find out I'm speaking the truth. Wikipedia could be a good start right there.

 

As for your sun analogy, one person can say the sun rose at 6:03, another person can say that it rose at 6:01.

Perhaps, but no one would deny the sun rose.

 

Who is right? If you wanted to you could choose some clock that is considered a "master clock" and go by that. But in the real world not all situations have a "master clock". So the only way to decide who is wrong is to assume that the other guy is wrong. I don't know how to make it more simple than that.

Again, the "master clock" could help you find out who really was right about the exact time the sun rose, but no one would deny the sun rose.

 

 

 

 

Again, I'm pretty sure we're arguing over nothing, as I never heard of anyone denying who started each specific war. I have heard of people arguing over the reasons the wars started, or why they should/shoudn't have, but never ever have I heard anyone argue who initiated the wars.

I really just want you to know I'm not disagreeing with you, I have no opinion on the matter. My point is it all depends on your perspective. If the Nazis had won WWII you probably would not understand why killing minorities is wrong. By saying the sun rose you are saying the war started, no one is denying that, and you could use the master clock to tell what time the sun rose, but you ignored the fact that the real world does not have a master clock for every situation. There is no central authority that everyone agrees on that says these are the facts. You have your "clock" which you say is right. Other people have theirs which they say is right. are either of you wrong? No. You believe your "clock" is the "master clock" and the other guy assumes his is. you think that whoever disagrees with you on this is simply stupid or lying, I'm sure they think the same about you! they have sources to back up their opinion too. You can have your opinion and your facts to back it up, but I just don't think you understand that the other side has their opinion and their facts.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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I really just want you to know I'm not disagreeing with you, I have no opinion on the matter.

You keep brining up opinion. There's no opinion here, we're only discussing facts. The armies of Eygept, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and the Arab legion all rushed to war against Israel and INITIATED the Independence War, for instance. And no one denies that, everyone knows, understands, and admits, this war wasn't initiated by Israel.

 

My point is it all depends on your perspective. If the Nazis had won WWII you probably would not understand why killing minorities is wrong.

A perspective is a matter of opinion. We're not discussing opinions.

 

By saying the sun rose you are saying the war started,

No, I used the analogy as means to explain wars initiated by X, are facts, not opinions. In other words, the sun rising is not saying the war started, it's saying it's a fact, just like the known facts of who started which war.

 

You have your "clock" which you say is right. Other people have theirs which they say is right. are either of you wrong? No.

I'm not even sure there's anyone with another clock, I never heard anyone deny which war was initiated by whom. Also, it's not "my" clock, any objective sources would tell you what I'm saying is a fact. I don't even think subjective sources would tell you otherwise.

 

You believe your "clock" is the "master clock" and the other guy assumes his is.

In order to stop that pointless argument- Can you show me proof of that other guy claiming that? I'm not even sure the other guy ever said anything about his clock...

 

 

you think that whoever disagrees with you on this is simply stupid or lying,

No, I think anyone that denies the facts is stupid or lying.

 

I'm sure they think the same about you! they have sources to back up their opinion too.

I don't think any source support other opinions, frankly. Please, use a different objective source (hint: Wikipedia), and see for yourself.

 

You can have your opinion and your facts to back it up, but I just don't think you understand that the other side has their opinion and their facts.

 

Again, not discussing opinions here...

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I'm not even sure there's anyone with another clock, I never heard anyone deny which war was initiated by whom. Also, it's not "my" clock, any objective sources would tell you what I'm saying is a fact. I don't even think subjective sources would tell you otherwise.

Right here is why you can't understand me, and you keep saying we aren't discussing opinions. There is ALWAYS another clock. Just because you don't believe in what that clock says doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thinking that everyone believes something that you do is quite frankly stupid. You are asking me to check out other sources, you can't seem to drop the whole Israel thing for one second and see I am talking about way more than just that. Still on the sources, this is the internet, if I wanted to I could find porn about how Israel started the wars. If you want proof that people disagree about who started the wars, find a terrorist and ask him. The first thought to go through your head I'm sure was "Well they aren't reliable." From his point of view neither are you. Are either of you wrong? You assume he is because you believe something, he assumes you are because you believe something. THERE IS NO SUPREME AUTHORITY. Facts and opinions are different, YES. I am trying to tell you there are always 2 sets of "facts", and not always someone to say one set is right. I know you say there can only be one set of facts but the world is not so black and white. I'm sorry but I can't think of a way to simplify this any more, and If you can't manage to grasp it I'm just not going to try anymore.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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I understand everything you say, I just think you're wrong. In order to make sure beyond doubt we understand each other, I'll elaborate as much as possible.

 

 

I'm not even sure there's anyone with another clock, I never heard anyone deny which war was initiated by whom. Also, it's not "my" clock, any objective sources would tell you what I'm saying is a fact. I don't even think subjective sources would tell you otherwise.

Right here is why you can't understand me, and you keep saying we aren't discussing opinions. There is ALWAYS another clock. Just because you don't believe in what that clock says doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thinking that everyone believes something that you do is quite frankly stupid. You are asking me to check out other sources, you can't seem to drop the whole Israel thing for one second and see I am talking about way more than just that.

The reason I say things like "I don't think even subjective sources would tell you otherwise" is that I live here, and know what each side thinks of what. I most probably would know if anyone denied Israel did not initiate certain wars, but because I can't be sure, I let this argument go on, as I thought you know of certain opinions that contradict the facts. After saying you're talking about the macro, and not Israel specifically, I believe it's safe to say you don't know of such opinions, only believe they exist, right?

Well, they most probably don't exist, and if they do, on a very, very tiny scale. The countries initiating the wars don't deny doing so, and I don't see why anyone should.

 

 

 

Still on the sources, this is the internet, if I wanted to I could find porn about how Israel started the wars. If you want proof that people disagree about who started the wars,

The reason I kept bringing up the sources, is that Wikipedia's policy is to be as objective as possible, and only present facts. You can more than usually use Wikipedia's word as the most objective one, and since (as I just mentioned) I thought you knew of some people thinking otherwise, I kept bringing Wikipedia- To explain that even if someone does think otherwise, they're just wrong. Because an objective source says otherwise.

 

 

find a terrorist and ask him. The first thought to go through your head I'm sure was "Well they aren't reliable." From his point of view neither are you. Are either of you wrong? You assume he is because you believe something, he assumes you are because you believe something.

The terrorist may think Israel isn't deserving of it's land or permission to have a country, he may think every war against Israel is just, and he may think not enough wars against Israel have occured, but he most probably doesn't deny Israel is not the one to initiate those wars (he'd probably even be proud of it, you know, that his side is the one acting on "what's right").

 

 

THERE IS NO SUPREME AUTHORITY.

There's an objective one.

 

 

Facts and opinions are different, YES. I am trying to tell you there are always 2 sets of "facts", and not always someone to say one set is right. I know you say there can only be one set of facts but the world is not so black and white. I'm sorry but I can't think of a way to simplify this any more, and If you can't manage to grasp it I'm just not going to try anymore.

 

On this very specific issue, there aren't 2 sets of facts (I don't think there are anywhere, but let's drop that). No one, atleast on a large scale, believes otherwise.

 

 

 

I hope we understand each other now...

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Ok I think you understand me better than I thought you did. Perhaps you are right that there is no large scale disagreement but you might be surprised. The problem with human nature is that we hang out with people who agree with us and are naturally inclined to find things that agree with us. When I was younger I couldn't believe people thought there were 2 JFK shooters, let alone a large number of people. I also don't like objective vs subjective sources because no matter how hard anyone tries an opinion seeps through. I love Wikipedia, don't get me wrong but I just don't like assuming that anything is completely objective. For instance, FOX news claims to be fair and balanced, though they most often agree with what I think, I also don't really believe they are fair and balanced.

 

I suppose the terrorist was kind of a bad example, because you are right, whilst bragging to his buddies he'd probably be happy to say how many times he has attacked Israel, but when Israel does something back he'd be more than happy to say "LOOK! LOOK! They started all this by doing this!"

 

Also I might not post for a while as I have some history homework to do .

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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Alright, I'm glad we understand each other now :).

 

 

Also, just so you'd know, I'm very much into politics, and as I try to form my opinion on political issues, I do my best at hearing each opinion and it's reasoning, even ones I don't agree with.

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It is my opinion that "reparations" should only be given to the people who the event actually happened to. And the establishment of Israel, if you don't consider that a reparation I don't know what you would. So for instance, the Japanese put into camps during WW2 if they asked to should be compensated, not their children or grandchildren but THEM SPECIFICALLY. Israel supposedly belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. Though this may sound biased, but I think it also applies to what ShadowFax said about the native Americans, as well as blacks for slavery.

 

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

 

In conclusion I think that in the end Israel will eventually collapse, reasons? They will eventually get less/ no foreign help, the Palestinians and anyone else fighting Israel aren't going away, and everyone's luck runs out. The sad thing is that the Israeli people are probably going to be poorly treated when/if this happens (and poorly treated may be an understatement) and then from the ashes of one f-up will rise another.

Zionism is a political movement that soldified in the 19th century as antisemitic feelings in Europe were building and Jews wanted to go back and reclaim a nation of their own centered around Zion, the temple mount, which is a basic run through of Zionism. Some Jews do not support Israel for specific reasons like for instance it is not ruled by a king of the line of David therefore it is not a legitimate state of Israel. Other Jews actually have morals and feel bad about killing and containing a native population that the land belonged to.

 

I feel personally offended by this. Are you implying any Jew that supports Zionism doesn't have morals?

 

Also, most religous Jews that don't support Zionism do it because, supposedly, Israel should not be re-built until the Days of the messiah.

 

I quickly made a map showing Israeli expansion:

[hide=Israel]israel.png[/hide]

Yellow=What Israel is suppose to be

Red=Land partitioned for Palestinians in the Partition Proposal of 1947

1. Egypt- Sinai, which the US forced them to withdraw from

2. Lebanon- Southern half, they were kicked out by Hamas mostly

3. Syria- Golan Heights, they have an "early attack detection base" here, they're still to give it back to Syria

*Not noted. Egypt-Gaza Strip, technically its under Hamas (not an improvement) now but Israel walks into it like its their backyard.

You always seem to forget that tiny detail of HOW these lands were conquered. Through war, and not with the intent to conquer land, and not war Israel even initiated (again, except for the Six Days War).

 

1. US asked, not forced.

2. You're misinformed, Israel withrawed from there on it's own after the war of October.

3. I'm afraid the Golan Heights are going to stay Israel's. Remember that Israel is not obliged to give up the land.

*You mean so that huge amounts of weapons won't be sent there and used on Israeli citizens? Or do you mean so that Israel could send supplies over there?

I was saying Jews who aren't Zionists actually follow their religion.

 

1. "Heavy diplomatic pressure from both the United States and the Soviet Union forced Israel into a conditional withdrawal of its military from the Sinai Peninsula,[27] only after satisfactory arrangements had been made with the international force that was about to enter the canal zone."

 

2. "In the second half of September Hezbollah claimed victory and asserted an improvement in their position, and they redeployed to some positions on the border[297][298] as Israel completed its withdrawal from Lebanon save border-straddling Ghajar." Just because one withdraws does not mean they do it fully on their own accord. It seems like a retreat since it accomplished little but bloodguilt.

 

3. Conquest

 

*You're a Jew right? Why did God not destroy Sodom, the city full of evil people [comparable to Gaza which you say is full of danger for the Israelis]? Because Abraham tells God he can find 10 innocent people in the entire city and God said He would not kill the innocent because of the unjust. Now either the Zionist government spits on its own holy book's instructions how to live [the OT] or they act to their own convenience and disregard their own standard of morals [provided in Torah]. The average Gazan citizen has about $3.50 a day, majority are under the age of 18, do not have the freedom of movement and many die from starvation, by Israeli aid do you mean the creation of a prison with 1.4millon prisoners? So you're willing to starve, imprison and harm innocent children to kill a few terrorists?

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He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion
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fakeit could you please edit the last part of your post, the way its written is kinda weird and I'm having trouble understanding what you mean.

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God dammit Seany, STOP SHARING MY MIND

" I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

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It is my opinion that "reparations" should only be given to the people who the event actually happened to. And the establishment of Israel, if you don't consider that a reparation I don't know what you would. So for instance, the Japanese put into camps during WW2 if they asked to should be compensated, not their children or grandchildren but THEM SPECIFICALLY. Israel supposedly belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. Though this may sound biased, but I think it also applies to what ShadowFax said about the native Americans, as well as blacks for slavery.

 

Also could someone please give me a rundown on Zionism? Sorry if I sound ignorant, I know it has to do with Israel and Judaism, and even some people who support Israel do not support the Zionists, so what is it?

 

Also if I'm not mistaken Israel has expanded way over the amount of land originally given to them by the UN I saw a picture of it once.... it was like 3 maps with years underneath.

 

Anyway, the thing that really made me say whoa hold up one freaking minute is when I actually began to learn about the subject and found out that hundreds if not thousands of the Palestinians live in refugee camps because they were forced out of their homes. They didn't even have the decency or maybe the intelligence to say wait, where will all these people go.

 

In conclusion I think that in the end Israel will eventually collapse, reasons? They will eventually get less/ no foreign help, the Palestinians and anyone else fighting Israel aren't going away, and everyone's luck runs out. The sad thing is that the Israeli people are probably going to be poorly treated when/if this happens (and poorly treated may be an understatement) and then from the ashes of one f-up will rise another.

Zionism is a political movement that soldified in the 19th century as antisemitic feelings in Europe were building and Jews wanted to go back and reclaim a nation of their own centered around Zion, the temple mount, which is a basic run through of Zionism. Some Jews do not support Israel for specific reasons like for instance it is not ruled by a king of the line of David therefore it is not a legitimate state of Israel. Other Jews actually have morals and feel bad about killing and containing a native population that the land belonged to.

 

I feel personally offended by this. Are you implying any Jew that supports Zionism doesn't have morals?

 

Also, most religous Jews that don't support Zionism do it because, supposedly, Israel should not be re-built until the Days of the messiah.

 

I quickly made a map showing Israeli expansion:

[hide=Israel]israel.png[/hide]

Yellow=What Israel is suppose to be

Red=Land partitioned for Palestinians in the Partition Proposal of 1947

1. Egypt- Sinai, which the US forced them to withdraw from

2. Lebanon- Southern half, they were kicked out by Hamas mostly

3. Syria- Golan Heights, they have an "early attack detection base" here, they're still to give it back to Syria

*Not noted. Egypt-Gaza Strip, technically its under Hamas (not an improvement) now but Israel walks into it like its their backyard.

You always seem to forget that tiny detail of HOW these lands were conquered. Through war, and not with the intent to conquer land, and not war Israel even initiated (again, except for the Six Days War).

 

1. US asked, not forced.

2. You're misinformed, Israel withrawed from there on it's own after the war of October.

3. I'm afraid the Golan Heights are going to stay Israel's. Remember that Israel is not obliged to give up the land.

*You mean so that huge amounts of weapons won't be sent there and used on Israeli citizens? Or do you mean so that Israel could send supplies over there?

I was saying Jews who aren't Zionists actually follow their religion.

 

I'm sorry I don't stand up to your "high standards" then.

 

1. "Heavy diplomatic pressure from both the United States and the Soviet Union forced Israel into a conditional withdrawal of its military from the Sinai Peninsula,[27] only after satisfactory arrangements had been made with the international force that was about to enter the canal zone."

That's like saying (if Netanyahu agreed to stop building in EJ) that Israel was forced to do that. If Israel didn't agree to get out of Sinai back then- that's exactly what was going to happen. Yes, the USA-Israel relations would probably cool off a bit (just like today with Israel not agreeing to some of the USA's demands), but the bottom line is that Israel is an independent country by any means, and has it's red lines which it would never cross. Sinai was not a red line.

 

2. "In the second half of September Hezbollah claimed victory and asserted an improvement in their position, and they redeployed to some positions on the border[297][298] as Israel completed its withdrawal from Lebanon save border-straddling Ghajar." Just because one withdraws does not mean they do it fully on their own accord. It seems like a retreat since it accomplished little but bloodguilt.

I can tell you the Arab world, at least the way I see it, can't afford to claim it didn't win. Oferet Yetzuka in Gaza was most porbably not a victory by the Hamas (considering the number of people hurt on each side, less than 20 on Israel's side, etc)- Israel retreated from Gaza on the basis of Hamas' promise to stop shooting missles, and it did not. The Arab world (Gaza, Syria, and some others) celebrated Israel's defeat, after Arab leaders claimed they're glad Israel lost. I leave it for you to decide what happend in Gaza.

 

And the reasons you give yourself aren't necessarily Israel's reasons. Israel did withdraw.

 

3. Conquest

Call it whatever you like, but the Golan Heights are legally Israel's and are going to stay that way.

 

*You're a Jew right? Why did God not destroy Sodom, the city full of evil people [comparable to Gaza which you say is full of danger for the Israelis]? Because Abraham tells God he can find 10 innocent people in the entire city and God said He would not kill the innocent because of the unjust. Now either the Zionist government spits on its own holy book's instructions how to live [the OT] or they act to their own convenience and disregard their own standard of morals [provided in Torah]. The average Gazan citizen has about $3.50 a day, majority are under the age of 18, do not have the freedom of movement and many die from starvation, by Israeli aid do you mean the creation of a prison with 1.4millon prisoners? So you're willing to starve, imprison and harm innocent children to kill a few terrorists?

 

Your Sodom example is highly misfitting. The majoritiy of Israel's people is Jewish-secular, and the government itself is also Jewish-secular, the Bible does not dictate what Israel should or shouldn't do. The Gazans are also not "evil" (like the Sodomites), but enough of them want Israel's downfall, and too many would act on that wish.

You call it convenience, I call it safety.

I already confirmed I relate to the Gazans and as I put it- "can't bear to even think what their lives are like, but the only true solution I could ever see feasible is peace."

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Your Sodom example is highly misfitting. The majoritiy of Israel's people is Jewish-secular, and the government itself is also Jewish-secular, the Bible does not dictate what Israel should or shouldn't do. The Gazans are also not "evil" (like the Sodomites), but enough of them want Israel's downfall, and too many would act on that wish.

You call it convenience, I call it safety.

I already confirmed I relate to the Gazans and as I put it- "can't bear to even think what their lives are like, but the only true solution I could ever see feasible is peace."

The Old Testament is the source of law for the Jews. Since God is the perfect and just being, Jews strive to be like that when trying to do what is right. If God is just and Israel wants to be just, than they would follow the example of God. And if Gazans aren't even evil than that's even worse that they would destroy innocent people's lives to kill non-evil people.

kaisershami.png

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion
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Your Sodom example is highly misfitting. The majoritiy of Israel's people is Jewish-secular, and the government itself is also Jewish-secular, the Bible does not dictate what Israel should or shouldn't do. The Gazans are also not "evil" (like the Sodomites), but enough of them want Israel's downfall, and too many would act on that wish.

You call it convenience, I call it safety.

I already confirmed I relate to the Gazans and as I put it- "can't bear to even think what their lives are like, but the only true solution I could ever see feasible is peace."

The Old Testament is the source of law for the Jews. Since God is the perfect and just being, Jews strive to be like that when trying to do what is right. If God is just and Israel wants to be just, than they would follow the example of God. And if Gazans aren't even evil than that's even worse that they would destroy innocent people's lives to kill non-evil people.

 

Lol, the Bible also encourages killing non-virgin women who marry- would you say Israel has to follow that rule?

The Bible (by the request of the Orthodox Jews before Israel's establishment) is A source of law for Jews, used SOMETIMES by courts, etc. and only to a CERTAIN EXTENT The Jewish people doesn't have to follow the Bible, and most of it agrees not to. There are Orthodox, Conservative, Traditional, secular, atheist, and a lot more groups of Jews. The Bible isn't binding to the state of Israel, and that whole argument of yours is pointless and unbased.

 

How is it worse that you'd fight your enemy?

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Your Sodom example is highly misfitting. The majoritiy of Israel's people is Jewish-secular, and the government itself is also Jewish-secular, the Bible does not dictate what Israel should or shouldn't do. The Gazans are also not "evil" (like the Sodomites), but enough of them want Israel's downfall, and too many would act on that wish.

You call it convenience, I call it safety.

I already confirmed I relate to the Gazans and as I put it- "can't bear to even think what their lives are like, but the only true solution I could ever see feasible is peace."

The Old Testament is the source of law for the Jews. Since God is the perfect and just being, Jews strive to be like that when trying to do what is right. If God is just and Israel wants to be just, than they would follow the example of God. And if Gazans aren't even evil than that's even worse that they would destroy innocent people's lives to kill non-evil people.

 

Lol, the Bible also encourages killing non-virgin women who marry- would you say Israel has to follow that rule?

The Bible (by the request of the Orthodox Jews before Israel's establishment) is A source of law for Jews, used SOMETIMES by courts, etc. and only to a CERTAIN EXTENT The Jewish people doesn't have to follow the Bible, and most of it agrees not to. There are Orthodox, Conservative, Traditional, secular, atheist, and a lot more groups of Jews. The Bible isn't binding to the state of Israel, and that whole argument of yours is pointless and unbased.

 

How is it worse that you'd fight your enemy?

I find it extremely stupid that Jews can justify any sort of claim to the land of Palestine and yet they don't even follow the religion of the state. It just goes to show their hypocrisy and blatant contradictions. See, if you go to the Vatican, all rules of the New Testament are expected to be upheld because it is a sectarian nation which follows the laws of their holy book. Israel is a nation which claims Jews should have a homeland and yet so some aren't even followers of Judaism. The claim of their land is "validated" further by their lack of a homeland and supposed descent from the original Israel. Seeing as how it has been thousands or years, majority of Jews aren't from the Middle East (Majority being from Eastern Europe/Germanic nations) how do they even know they weren't converted?

 

And it's not worse you'd fight your enemies. It's worse that you'd kill people defined as "non-evil" because that would mean they have the chance to be corrected and it is not out of their own bad intent to commit wrong. It's much easier to defend the argument of blockading, starving and restricting Gazan children who are defined as an "evil" people because they would warrant their elimination. If they are not evil and just not good for Israel then it is just out of greed one would harm innocent defenseless people. And as I said God is suppose to represent justice and not killing innocent because of bad people/enemies is something that agrees with the general consensus of international law and yet Israel breaks that and their own holy book's example.

kaisershami.png

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion
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I find it extremely stupid that Jews can justify any sort of claim to the land of Palestine and yet they don't even follow the religion of the state. It just goes to show their hypocrisy and blatant contradictions. See, if you go to the Vatican, all rules of the New Testament are expected to be upheld because it is a sectarian nation which follows the laws of their holy book. Israel is a nation which claims Jews should have a homeland and yet so some aren't even followers of Judaism. The claim of their land is "validated" further by their lack of a homeland and supposed descent from the original Israel. Seeing as how it has been thousands or years, majority of Jews aren't from the Middle East (Majority being from Eastern Europe/Germanic nations) how do they even know they weren't converted?

The state of Israel was, along with other things, a solution to the Jew problem, mainly throughout Europe and Russia. The situation at the time was unbearable, and a home was had to be found ASAP, for holocaust survivors and the Jews of Russia. Again, most of the Jewish nation is secular, forcing Biblic rules would mean dictatorship. May I also remind you that according to the Torah, if Israel wants to go to war, it should first ask it's enemy if it's willing to surrender, and if the enemy says 'no', Israel has God's permission to go to war. Hmmm.... I wonder what the discussion on this thread would be like if Israel welcomed the rules of the Bible with open arms...

If you see it as a contradiction, fine, but you should know that if Israel was formed the way you suggest, it wouldn't be a democracy.

 

 

And it's not worse you'd fight your enemies. It's worse that you'd kill people defined as "non-evil" because that would mean they have the chance to be corrected and it is not out of their own bad intent to commit wrong.

Not with the intent to commit what THEY think is wrong. It makes perfect sense that even if your enemy isn't evil, you'd fight him. It's your enemy after all. Germany of WWII wasn't evil, it was brainwashed, does that mean the rest of Europe shouldn't have defended itself and fought the Germans? As for the chance to correct it... may I ask how? What do you expect Israel to do in order to "correct" that?

The reason I said the Gazans are not evil, is because they're not evil, not because they're not dangerous to Israel, or because they don't hate Israel (they even act on that hatred...)

With all seriousness, your arguments are starting to come out as "let's see what she has to say about that" rather than out of logic.

 

It's much easier to defend the argument of blockading, starving and restricting Gazan children who are defined as an "evil" people because they would warrant their elimination.

I think the mere fact Gaza attacked Israel is enough to "defend" that argument. There's no other choice. Period.

 

If they are not evil and just not good for Israel then it is just out of greed one would harm innocent defenseless people.

Of greed? Greed to spending rediculous amounts of money on security? Or did you mean greed to kill people? Because if you did, that's demonizing, degrading, senseless, baseless, and on top of all, clearly wrong.

Israel only attacked Gaza because it had no other choice, not because Israel is some sort of evil state with severe problems of bloodlust.

 

And as I said God is suppose to represent justice and not killing innocent because of bad people/enemies is something that agrees with the general consensus of international law and yet Israel breaks that and their own holy book's example.

What are you talking about? The Bible clearly encourages war. It even presents 2 sets of laws to war, one for war God tells his people to fight, and one for war the people just want to fight.

Basically, one of the guidelines to war, as I said up this post, is that Israel should first ask it's enemy if it's willing to surrender, and if not, go to war. God of the Torah clearly encourages fighting your enemies.

I have no idea where you got that from, the rules and guidelines of the Bible, if placed in today's society, would be preposterous, misfitting, a religious coercion, even evil.

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i cant help but laugh at the IRONY romy, that you surely claim a lot of defense for Israel (a "homeland" purely based off a religion which is made up of a few loosely-based facts at best and shrouded with political agendas and myths of 2000+ yrs ago) and then go ahead and post ur signature which is designed to be a mockery of religion.

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