Hegemony

[Retech]

Perhaps you should base the price on the Tomahawk Cruise missle, which is approximately 600,000 dollars each? For my missiles, I upped the price to 1 million each, because they were especially advanced.

[The_Mather1]

Retech, that thing is perhaps as much as 5-10 times as large as the JSM with four times the weight, the JSM is a small missile for fighters and weapon platforms. It has a long range because it quite literally has a mind of its own with advanced friend-and-foe software.

[The_Mather1]

To develop, yes, but computer chips are cheap to produce.

[Guest Rob]

Okay, well. Resistance is sort of going into another downward spiral.

 

1.4b split evenly between vehicles and troops for me this turn.

[The_Mather1]

I see that the price was grossly underestimated by comparing it to other missiles of similar weight and size, I think 100,000 each would be a more correct price as most of the price is obviously due to the fact that it's a weapon, though Kongsberg Gruppen would agree that arguing about how much over production cost that I should pay is not a wise thing to do with enemy ships heading for Norway. That means 880 missiles will be purchased. If I run out of missiles before all the ships are sunk, then I've just got to hope I didn't rearm the naval forts for nothing.

[archimage_a]

AFF (Advanced Friend Foe):

That man has a hat and a lit cigar on him, he is my friend.*

 

IFF (Identify Friend Foe):

That man has a microchip on him, he is my friend.

 

 

Any system, including the human senses, can be fooled relatively simply.

All you have to do is satisfy a few conditions and it is rendered useless.

For example, using a special silver based paint can fool the majority of modern sensing equipment into thinking that a wooden frame is, infact, metal.

Or wearing a uniform with an IFF sewn into the lining that marks you as a friend.

Or it sees a convoy of trucks...are they enemy or refugees?

 

Its not actually any more advanced than the EU3 engine...

 

 

 

*The software compares the shape and characteristics(say Infra-red bleed from the engines, or some such) to a set of presets, and things that match are tagged as friends (or foes, if the software has a netural setting as the default).

[The_Mather1]

"The target selection technology provides NSM with a capacity for independent detection, recognition, and discrimination of targets at sea or on the coast. This is possible by the combination of an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker and an onboard target database."

I see you can read... Impressive. :rolleyes:

 

The Norwegian version of the article goes into a little more detail, stating that it does not only seek out and identify heat sources but instead is constantly generating an image of a wide and identifies multiple targets at the same time then decides which to attack and which it can't attack. That used together with their communication means that the missiles themselves "plan" an approach so they don't all go after the same ship.

[archimage_a]

I see you can't think for yourself...Slightly less impressive.

 

The technology there is old as salt...

For example:

 

"Our new Technology allows Advanced Friend Foe Aquisition! Simply look up into the sky with your Optic Iris Pinhole Recongition System, and consult this External Database."

 

 

 

There is no great benefit to this technology.

Other than it can independantly target your own people, or that hostile lighthouse with a thermal register of a jet.

 

 

Seriously...Its a small peice of tech, it doesn't do anything particularly substantive, or achieve anything of any significantly measurable note.

Its the equivalent of the toy you get in fast food restraunts...It has no applicable purpose but to attract the naive.

 

 

The Norwegian version of the article goes into a little more detail, stating that it does not only seek out and identify heat sources but instead is constantly generating an image of a wide and identifies multiple targets at the same time then decides which to attack and which it can't attack. That used together with their communication means that the missiles themselves "plan" an approach so they don't all go after the same ship.

Its not actually any more advanced than the EU3 engine...

[The_Mather1]

You seem to confuse it with an active one, which just registers heat signatures, this one is passive, it registers the whole area and compares what it finds to the database not only by temperature and size but also by shape. We're talking more advanced than "that heat is one meter wide, it's a jet engine", it is more comparable to a combination of facial recognition and a fingerprint scanner.

[archimage_a]

Based on...what exactly?

 

Someone looking at a bird? Thats passive.

Bird watching is more or less exclusively dependant on shape.

Thanks for proving you are totally uninterested in what other people say...it clears up a lot of the problems I have been having trying to work out why you are unable to learn.

 

 

This is the level of tech you are dealing with:

http://uk.ask.com/wiki/20Q

 

Except the Q&A have been replaced with scanners.

 

If you are putting the capacity to blow things up in the hands a computer that consistantly failed to identify Custard then I feel sorry for your men.

[The_Mather1]

I'm sorry to say this but now you're just being purely [developmentally delayed]ed, there's significant difference between 20 questions and modern military identification software. It works by comparing images in the database to what it sees, once it finds a near-perfect match it registers it as identified and decides what to do then. This kind of identification is used in cameras as well, albeit with more margin for deviance. In the matter the details in order to identify the class of the ship it compares with high-precision, like a fingerprint reader, if it is a match then it is identified, if it isn't then it keeps looking until one is found. It is not as much comparable to watching birds as coin slots, using high-speed identification to separate a coin from a small, round piece of scrap metal.

[The_Mather1]

Population 5 768 903,08

 

Taxation $121 379 162 989,52

Export $141 479 925 051,72

Other $33 187 691 762,02

 

GDP $296 046 779 803,26

 

Budget $29 604 677 980,33

 

Saved 3 $1 800 000 000,00

Saved 4 $27 490 886 533,00

Saved 5 $28 178 158 696,33

Saved 6 $28 882 612 663,73

 

 

Improved torpedoes 4/5 100,000,000,000/125,000,000,000.

Flechettes 2/3 2,000,000,000/3,000,000,000.

 

Norway again requests a purchase of 200 CF-35 Lightning IIs now that they are in full-scale production.

[archimage_a]

I'm sorry to say this but now you're just being purely [developmentally delayed]ed, there's significant difference between 20 questions and modern military identification software. It works by comparing images in the database to what it sees, once it finds a near-perfect match it registers it as identified and decides what to do then. This kind of identification is used in cameras as well, albeit with more margin for deviance. In the matter the details in order to identify the class of the ship it compares with high-precision, like a fingerprint reader, if it is a match then it is identified, if it isn't then it keeps looking until one is found. It is not as much comparable to watching birds as coin slots, using high-speed identification to separate a coin from a small, round piece of scrap metal.

 

How is there any difference?

 

Does it look like this 3d model of this jet?

No

Does it look like this 3d model of this other jet?

Yes

Does it have a heat signature?

Yes

ect ect ect.

 

Computers only work on yes/no assumptions, or probability estimates, which are basically yes/no assumptions within a margin for error.

Does it look like this 3d model of this jet?

-Compared 200,000 points, similarity on 180,000 points.

-90% probability of this being that jet.

-Probability cut off at 85%.

-90>85

Yes

 

 

 

 

The only thing that seperates this from Birdwatching is that this uses a vast database of models/images/other data, with a bunch of technology feeding data into it, while birdwatching uses a book or a chart, with a pair of binoculars.

 

I am yet to so any difference beyond that.

 

 

As for your coinslot analogy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vending_machine#Coin_fraud

 

 

The essential difference here is that even a fake £2 coin is not worth the trouble of machining, where as a multimillion dollar jet is.

With just a little effort and know-how (and money) you could fly right passed your AFF, land, steal the jet the AFF is in and fly off again. All while the AFF waved cheerily at you.

[The_Mather1]

The JSM is a sea-skimming anti-ship missile, it's bit harder to copy a warship than a jet. The AA systems I ordered use radar and laser guided missiles.

 

Also computers can also work by percentage, making "This is not identical to the reference, do not engage." into "This is 98% identical to the reference, well within the margin, engage."

[archimage_a]

Also computers can also work by percentage, making "This is not identical to the reference, do not engage." into "This is 98% identical to the reference, well within the margin, engage."

Computers only work on yes/no assumptions, or probability estimates, which are basically yes/no assumptions within a margin for error.

Does it look like this 3d model of this jet?

-Compared 200,000 points, similarity on 180,000 points.

-90% probability of this being that jet.

-Probability cut off at 85%.

-90>85

Yes

 

Well done, you have successfully reguritated what I said.

 

The idea of an Anti-Ship missle, using all that technology, is, in many ways, laughable.

Naval ships travel around 30-40 knots (around 54-72 kilometers per hour). Missiles travel about 1,200 kilometers per hour.

Ergo, at the max range of the missile, about 130 kilometers(since it is 125+ on your page. It says 185 on mine, which would bump the time up to 9 minutes), it takes 6.5 minutes to reach the target. In that time the ship can move up to about 1.5 kilometers, assuming it is already travelling a full speed.

 

Now, I am no expert in naval strategy, but if you are firing missiles at a range of 130 kilometers, travelling at a speed of 1,200 kilometers per hour...Then why do you need them to acquire their own targets?

Are you just going to fire the missiles every 5 minutes, on the off chance the enemy warships are coming through?

Wouldn't a missile with a camera in be more directly useful in this situation? Less expensive too.

 

Ultimately I can see no real use to this as an Anti-Ship Missile.

It just sounds like people coming up with an excuse to the:

'Why not just camoflage the target?' issue.

Basically saying:

'Err, well, its targetted at boats, and you can't disguise a boat very easily.'

 

And even then, this is fundermentally inaccurate. A tanker with an atomic bomb onboard will be bypassed by this missile.

 

 

 

 

 

The only time this has anything approaching a usable value is if you are also engaging the enemy warships with several of your own warships, all of which are travelling at more than twenty knots, and the target has your IFF codes, so your missiles can't simply use them, and your launch platform is 125 kilometers from the target.

Which, to my mind, isn't going to happen that often....

 

Unless you are fighting in Skagerrak, with your missiles based at Kristianland, against an enemy that wants to use the Baltic, and the Kiel Canal is blocked to their ships.

 

Or your Lighening II planes are flying about, at night, when suddenly their aircraft carried is sunk, and they need to instantly retaliate by firing their missiles in the general direction the missiles that sunk the aircraft carrier came from...

 

 

For the purposes of destroying ships in dock, or moving slower than 20 knots, or without your IFF codes, or if the enemy hasn't managed to sneak across 130 kilometers of open sea to attack your navy without you knowing about it...A regular fly by wire missile, or laser guided...or hell, even plain old prediction missile would be cheaper, better and equally effective.

 

There is of course, one thing that this missile excels at...and that is a near-dead man's switch. You are flying about, when, suddenly, missiles are bearing down on you (fired in a straight line, with no attempt to hide the launch point). Realising you are doomed you arm and fire your JSMs, eject and watch the enemy ship get destroyed a few minutes later.

[The_Mather1]

It is also useful if you have less operators missiles and enemies, with these a single fighter could take out a small fleet while staying out of visual and perhaps even radar range, by firing all six they can carry (two in the bay and two on each wing).

Note that it can be controlled remotely as it can communicate with an operator as well as other missiles.

 

Though the two most important features of the missiles are the evasive maneuvers it is able to carry out autonomously to avoid countermeasures and the fact that it's the smallest anti-ship missile that can be launched from the air.

[The_Mather1]

Population 5 913 125,66

 

Taxation $124 413 642 064,26

Export $145 016 923 178,02

Other $34 017 384 056,07

 

GDP $303 447 949 298,35

 

Budget $30 344 794 929,83

 

Saved 4 $3 290 886 533,00

Saved 5 $28 178 158 696,33

Saved 6 $28 882 612 663,73

Saved 7 $29 604 677 980,33

 

Improved torpedoes completed.

Flechettes completed.

 

Norway purchases 200 CF-35 Lightning IIs for $183.5 million each, totaling a cost of $36.7 billion.

Kongsberg Gruppen receives a funding of 6,3 million to create two weapons platform for the flechettes, one for manned control (free standing, etc.) and one for electronic control (aircraft, etc.), these will be done by next year and available for purchase for any nations with friendly relations with Norway. This is expected to yield a <1% increase in export income (base value increased by 0.005(24524,58 to 24524,585)).

[Icuownage]

A contraversial video has been released in Japan.

 

Some experts say it's possibly a metaphor about the indecency of the western world

 

[The_Mather1]

Population 6 061 000,00

 

Taxation $127 524 955 250,00

Export $148 643 509 685,00

Other $34 868 084 460,00

 

GDP $311 036 549 395,00

 

Budget $31 103 654 939,50

 

Saved 7 $27 250 000 000,00

Saved 8 $30 344 797 886,40

[The_Mather1]

Is it safe to say this is dead?

[jasignhagj]

Yeah, before my estimate of 16 pages too. The tavern just can't handle an unstructured hegemony anymore.

[Icuownage]

I am still very much up for this game, but people didn't seem up for it, so I was not up for it.

 

But if people do actually start playing again I will too.

[The_Mather1]

I would love to continue as well so...

[archimage_a]

I have no issue continuing.

 

Ok. So.

 

Lets say it is 2013.

The great Sino-British war never happened.

Keep Calm and Carry on.

[The_Mather1]

But nothing happened to any of us who were playing seriously, so what's the point of turning back time?