input about melees

[Low Levelled]

just got 85 strength, which is currently my highest melee (stats in sig)

 

do i keep doing strength, or should i give my attack and/or defense a little love too?

 

I'm doing this through slayer if that matters.

[impalasforpeace]

wow i never ever ever ever ever considered what order leveling melees was best.

 

but yeah it's best to do str/att mostly together except maybe give str a bit of a lead (while str levels will get you more dps than attack levels per level , if you get str too far ahead of attack then the rate at which your dps will increase will actually be higher if you train attack due to it being faster to level).

 

i hope you can understand that. honestly it's kind of a fascinating problem. i'm not sure i properly understand it yet.

[impalasforpeace]

this post is my thinking space.

 

==

 

okay i got it.

 

xp per hour is proportional to:

 

str level + (attack level)/x.

 

now, leveling up str and attack increases your xp per hour. so at any point in time you want to level the one up which maximizes the rate of increase of your xp per hour

 

so you compare them. the the value of that str level to your dps over the xp to that str level, to the xp to the value of the attack level to dps over the xp to that attack level.

 

THAT is how you decide :). x is maybe like = to 1.3, dependng on your accuracy.

 

of course the big assumption is that training strength and attack give you the same rate of xp.

 

==

 

you know the one thing that is confusing? which of str and attack it is best to level up in the moment *could* screw you over later. the optimally choice in the short term, might not create the optimal path in the long term (the path of str/att level increases).

 

nah but i think i'm okay. in this case that is not a concern. taking the immediately optimal choices has to pave *the* optimal path.

[Th e Doctor]

As long as you have 80 attack and a chaotic rapier its best to do str to 99 then att 99 then defense. On anything you train on your accuracy is going to be good enough that str levels are more xp/hr than attack levels given you use supers/extremes/overloads and piety/turmoil (which you absolutely should be).

[impalasforpeace]

As long as you have 80 attack and a chaotic rapier its best to do str to 99 then att 99 then defense. On anything you train on your accuracy is going to be good enough that str levels are more xp/hr than attack levels given you use supers/extremes/overloads and piety/turmoil (which you absolutely should be).

 

the reason why i don't believe that is the following:

 

if you are 98 strength, then your dps increases faster if you train attack (while the strength level is more valuable, the attack level can be achieved in 20% of the time and it is more than 20% as valuable as the strength level).

 

and it is my belief is that it is best to train what increases your dps at the fastest rate.

[transcript80]

I train with whip on controlled (hate DG, no rapier). Most of my combat xp is from salyer, and the few times I need to use a strength weapon (SS) gives that a bit of lead. I like to have my melee combat stats equal. I think, unless you train either attack or strength a LOT higher than the other the difference is not too great.

 

Defense is of no intrest to you is you go for DPS max. As stated, you'll train on pretty weak mobs antway, so defence is not very important.

 

But I like my stats to be tretty balanced.

[Sy_Accursed]

The general rule of thumb (aside from getting stats for gd gear eg 80s for rapier) is:

Str>Att>Def.

 

High max hit has the biggest effect on your DPS and thus xp:hr

Higher accuracy has the 2nd biggest effect on your DPS and thus xp:hr

Def only helps you take less damage BUT having higher DPS and thus faster kills makes you take less damage than lower DPS with higher def.

[Hedgehog]

As long as you have 80 attack and a chaotic rapier its best to do str to 99 then att 99 then defense. On anything you train on your accuracy is going to be good enough that str levels are more xp/hr than attack levels given you use supers/extremes/overloads and piety/turmoil (which you absolutely should be).

 

the reason why i don't believe that is the following:

 

if you are 98 strength, then your dps increases faster if you train attack (while the strength level is more valuable, the attack level can be achieved in 20% of the time and it is more than 20% as valuable as the strength level).

 

and it is my belief is that it is best to train what increases your dps at the fastest rate.

The power of each attack level decreases as you level (think of it like 1/X), whereas the power of each strength level increases constantly (linear: mx+b).

 

Although the dps increase faster (only due to more levels/time) when you train a low attack level, increasing strength will always lead to more dps.

[Th e Doctor]

As long as you have 80 attack and a chaotic rapier its best to do str to 99 then att 99 then defense. On anything you train on your accuracy is going to be good enough that str levels are more xp/hr than attack levels given you use supers/extremes/overloads and piety/turmoil (which you absolutely should be).

 

the reason why i don't believe that is the following:

 

if you are 98 strength, then your dps increases faster if you train attack (while the strength level is more valuable, the attack level can be achieved in 20% of the time and it is more than 20% as valuable as the strength level).

 

and it is my belief is that it is best to train what increases your dps at the fastest rate.

 

Then you should train strength. The point is that with all boosts to accuracy being used (salve Tammy, slayer helm, void, piety/turmoil, and potions) you're going to be over 70% accurate on anything you should be "training" on. Attack levels won't increase dps as much as strength levels because accuracy has less value the more of it you get (I.e. you can't get over 100% accurate but str will always add dps).

 

Even if you can gain an attack level in 20% of the time it would take you to get 98-99 str you won't see as big of a benefit from that level as the str level unless you aren't using all your available boosts (which is your own personal issue and in that case why bother asking for advice?)

 

Unfortunately what you believe is the best way to go is just plain wrong. You can keep believing it but it isn't the best way to do things and it makes you ignorant.

[impalasforpeace]

Even if you can gain an attack level in 20% of the time it would take you to get 98-99 str you won't see as big of a benefit from that level as the str level unless you aren't using all your available boosts (which is your own personal issue and in that case why bother asking for advice?)

 

are you saying that an attack level would be less than 20% as valuable to your dps than a strength level? and if it was more than 20% as valuable would you agree it would be best to level attack from 80-81 before str from 98-99?

 

 

also, do you agree that it is best to level the thing which increases your dps at the fastest rate?

 

if you do not agree can you specify how you think it may be wrong?

 

let's be clear. thanks.

 

==

 

hmm no one caught me when i said dps is proportional to attack level/x +str level.

 

that doesn't make any sense.

 

rather dps is proportional to

 

accuracy*maxhit.

 

whichever of attack and strength increases accuracy*maxhit the most per time is what you want to do..

 

obviously it depends on your equipment and everything then .. and note that as str gets higher, training accuracy gets more valuable for two reasons - 1) the xp to get the attack level decreases in comparison to the xp needed to get the next strength level and 2) the value of increasing accuracy by a defined % increases as max hit (str level) increases.

[Th e Doctor]

Even if you can gain an attack level in 20% of the time it would take you to get 98-99 str you won't see as big of a benefit from that level as the str level unless you aren't using all your available boosts (which is your own personal issue and in that case why bother asking for advice?)

 

are you saying that an attack level would be less than 20% as valuable to your dps than a strength level? and if it was more than 20% as valuable would you agree it would be best to level attack from 80-81 before str from 98-99?

 

I'm saying str from 98 to 99 is a bigger dps increase than att from 80-81 given you use all boosts available to you.

 

also, do you agree that it is imperative to level the thing which increases your dps at the fastest rate?

 

Yes, which is strength

 

 

let's be clear. thanks :).

 

I really cba to be more clear than that, so this is the last I'm going to respond to this thread. Someone else can deal with being frustrated.

[impalasforpeace]

I'm saying str from 98 to 99 is a bigger dps increase than att from 80-81 given you use all boosts available to you.

 

yeah i know that.

 

also, do you agree that it is imperative to level the thing which increases your dps at the fastest rate?

 

Yes, which is strength

 

but doesn't leveling attack increase dps at the fastest rate if attack = lv 80 and str lv= 98.

 

your dps will go up faster if you train attack in that situation even though it increases your dps less than a str level because you will level it much, much sooner.

[Quyneax]

I get your point Impalas, but consider this:

 

To go from 80% to 90% accuracy, requires you to double your attack roll. At 80 attack, you have to get 88 attack levels, plus whatever boost you get from potions.

If you want to increase your dps just as much by increasing your max hit, you need to go from 100 to 112.5 max hit. At 98 strength, you have to get 13.25 strength levels, plus one eighth of the boost from potions.

[impalasforpeace]

thanks so much for that calculation :). hmm yeah i think you have it exactly right.

 

if your accuracy is 80% then 98-99str instead of 80-81 attack is better i guess. i can believe that.

 

==

 

if your accuracy is 70% on the other hand then your max hit would have to go from 100-121.5 (or increase by a factor of 1.21.5) to compensate for the 88 attack levels. that would take around 20 strength levels if you were 98. at that point training attack might be better.

[impalasforpeace]

quyneax i actually just realized your example needs some help

 

it's unfair to compare the 88 attack levels to the 13 strength levels BECAUSE while the strength levels are each of the same value to dps, the attack levels are decreasing in value to dps.

 

the first attack level is FOUR times as valuable at the 88th one to dps (i.e accuracy). that's because the value of attack levels to dps go down quadratically.

 

so the attack level that gives the average value of the attack levels from 80-168 is the 110-111 level.

 

but the 110-111 attack level is roughly 1/2 as valuable as the 80-81 level. SO, at 80% accuracy instead of 80-81 attack being 13/88 as good as 98-99 strength it is actually twice as valuable as that, so 13/44 as good (meaning str would be 44/13=3.38x as valuable).

 

the case that your example made was that 98-112 str has the same benefit as 80-168 attack, if you initially have 80% accuracy. what that doesn't mean is that 80-81 attack has 1/8th the effect on dps as 98-99 strength (actually it is like 1/4..).

[Quyneax]

You're right it doesn't, the first attack level is more valuable. My calculation was just to show that attack is really, really weak compared to strength (if you're not unlocking new weapons, that is).

 

Going from 88 to 89 attack roll (at 80% accuracy, that's 35.2 def roll) would increase your accuracy to 80.225%, 0,28125% dps boost. From 106 to 107 strength roll, 0,9434% boost. So about 3.54 times as valuable. The ratio is 13,25:88 = 6.64.

 

206,750 xp vs. 1,228,825 xp, so attack would seem worthwhile for at least one level.

[impalasforpeace]

aw i edited my post so it's clearer.

 

 

yeah, 3.54 times as valuable with those levels at 80% accuracy sounds right. if 98-99 was more than 3.54x the xp as 80-81 attack, then attack would be better to train still.. which i think it may be. ah i see you edited that fact in lolz :).

 

==

 

on another note you have a good method to doing the calculations. the confusing part to me was the fact that str bonus and attack bonus actually don't matter (because higher attack and strength bonus actually benefit both increases in attack and strength roll equally..).