Bloodstain

Heh, kinda funny view when the context is a contest to see who is more attractive Do you think incest is okay? No, because it can produce some pretty unhealthy kids

Oh, and even more evidence for the anti torture side: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?f ... _id=510315 Damn, what a low success rate for rapport building! And torture of middle easterners led to more joining terrorist organizations?! No way!

Misunderstood that. And no, switch those success rates around. We're almost 5 pages in and there hasn't been one source where torture actually worked, and rapport building IS effective. Did you by any chance read the thread?

Yeah, please post a reason for your opinions or you'll end up with the reputation of Robert. Anyway, you say torture is torture, but you still haven't proven to me that it's torture. There's no harm being done to the person it's happening to. Because I say it's not, that's why. And, yes, that's a perfectly valid reason. The problem with the "It's torture!" crowd is that, by following the logic that any physical, mental or emotional pain inflicted on someone solely to obtain information is torture, then any way used to glean information from someone which isn't, "Would you be so kind as to tell me what you know?" would have to be, by it's very definition, also torture. Ergo, there would be no legal was to find out what someone knows, as anything involving any means of coercion would have to be wrong and the CIA, FBI and pretty much ever intelligence agency would be out of a job. *shrugs* So, to avoid all of this, let's just say its not torture. Please tell me how asking someone questions inflicts pain and lasting effects

Not bugged by this one bit. North Korea isn't stupid, and how many countries in the world to tests like these and have weapons like those?

Oh boy, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read, comparing Al-Qaeda to "the CIA". I'm sure the CIA would gladly rip off the head of a reporter, send kids out to die in mine fields and kill gays simply because they're gay. GREAT COMPARISON. Btw, huff post & a blog? :lol: It doesn't matter if it's from Huff, the most important part is the document released by the Red Cross. It could be posted for download on a porn site and it would still be relevant. Oh, and for clarification, the thing I said about CIA and Al-Qaeda was meant to be taken in the context of this topic (torture), but apparently the CIA is quite bad from what other people have posted Edit: Page 4 and still no empirical or direct evidence that can confirm torture's effectiveness

Nominated for stupidest post of the year. Thanks for the no relevant info post :thumbsup: But let's go in to your Sri Lanka thread where 90% of your posts are either 2 sentences or just flaming people =)

A) Congratulations on thinking like a terrorist B) Because torture doesn't get any information which is one of the main reasons for gitmo?

But see, there are 100 terrists for 100 "innocent" terrists in gitmo, and the guv'ment is torturing them to make sure USA doesnt get attacked again! I mean, look at all the attacks they've prevented so far, like, uh, well ok, they can't ACTUALLY tell us about the attacks they prevent because that would ruin their investigations!

Although I agree with you that we need to move beyond waterboarding, that statement is entirely subjective. While Rapport building will work with lower level operatives; a key problem lies in what you said, that lower level operatives arent just given information. Any higher ups we capture(Im talking head commanders/people that we know 100% are terrorists/were well known before 9/11) arent going to "betray" the organization they have devoted their life to just because we try to be friendly. Now, we should be using rapport building and other non torture like means on anyone who is low level if we think we can get some useful stuff out of them. When we start talking about higher levels we need to consider less pleasant means. Waterboarding is in my opinion overboard, but methods such as mild sleep deprivation, nutritious but "cardboard" food, and uncomfortable living quarters(within reason) need to be looked into. While we have to avoid becoming worse then what we are fighting; giving up on intelligence operations is never going to be a solution. We touched on this in the other topic, but I'm sure you remember KSM and Zubydayh or however you spell it were the mastermind of the first hijacked-airliner attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001. He then claimed to have info on an imminent attack on LA, and the CIA claimed that he was uncooperative to interrogation and responded well to torture. http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/A ... rcid=46949 HOWEVER http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Ma ... logId=7022 Hey look, it's A HIGH RANKING TERRORIST COOPERATING WITH INTERROGATORS! HMMMMMMM Oh, and that "mild" stuff you talked about is already being used, so there's that

Give me a source where torture has saved people. Please do. So far no one in any discussion I've been has been able to, so please find one. And psychological harm is ALOT worse than physical. Physical wounds heal, the brain is a very delicate and complicated thing, and water boarding most definitely has a serious impact on psychological health. http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2009-05-01 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02242.html And from a leaked CIA document "issued by the International Committee for the Red Cross following two rounds of private interviews it held with the 14 "high value detainees" held at Guantanamo Bay." Oh, and also from that report http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-nick ... 01728.html Congratulations to the CIA on becoming as bad, if not worse than Al-Qaida. Round of applause please? =D>

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=793416 Torture thread, discuss it there. But please, read the entire thread first. Pretty much all arguments FOR torture are disproven. Some things I'd like to say first though: 1. Waterboarding has major psychological side effects which can be WAY worse than physical. And if the water gets in the lungs it can cause serious physical harm 2. It is not simulated drowning. It is drowning that is stopped 3. There have been 2 trials for the "terrorists" at gitmo. TWO 4. Percent of gitmo detainees actually caught by US forces: 5% Percentage of gitmo detainees turned in for REWARD MONEY by Afghan and Pakistani citizens: 95% "You can receive millions of dollars for helping the Anti-Taliban Forces catch Al-Qaida and Taliban murderers. This is enough money to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for the rest of your life. Pay for livestock and doctors and schoolbooks and housing for all your people" Sample text of leaflet handed out by US forces in Afghanistan Seems like a pretty good way to get rid of that neighbor you hate and take his land 5. THERE HAS BEEN NO EVIDENCE THAT TORTURE IS EFFECTIVE 6. So far, there has not been one case where torture has actually got anything valuable (and if it has, it could have been gotten through traditional methods/Rapport building) 7. Rapport building is more effective Honestly, it seems that every time I run into someone who is Pro-Torture it is because they are not educated on the subject or have done no research. Annnyyy way, back on topic There is another forum I frequent that is going to try to open a website and raise money to have other people who say it is not torture waterboarded, and donate the money to a charity of their choice when they do it.

EDIT: Wow, table breakage! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Azimuthal_Equidistant_N90.jpg http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

And the link to the youtube They didn't even put the mask over his mouth :| Apparently he did raise money for charity doing this though And a link to this one, another one where a journalist bet he could endure 15 seconds of it ("Nothings so bad that you can't do 15 seconds of it" and then lasts 6 seconds), and the Vanity fair one. Consider that these guys had their hands held through the entire thing too, and they still freak out. http://blogs.suntimes.com/sportsprose/2 ... arded.html

That would get rid of a lot of jobs though

Just a rumor http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/58664

a lie detector cant work in the sense of gaining information, if you ask someone will there be an attack even if they lie about there not being and we catch it or they say there will be it doesnt help in its prevention. For the record, Im largely defending waterboarding out of the need. While I firmly believe we can find better methods that arent as controversial, I severly dislike the witchhunting of cia operatives. So bloodstain, since I do agree rapport building is rather effective long term, what would you suggest for prisoners it doesnt work on? Then you're screwed. Get the CIA or FBI or whoever the hell they use and try to get information through other avenues

If you were in charge of handling interogation and getting information for the United States, what would your method be? I WOULD USE RAPPORT BUILDING, WHICH IS PROVEN TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF GETTING INFORMATION, BUT YOU DIDN'T READ THE THREAD SO YOU WOULDN'T KNOW THAT Lie detectors are not reliable at detecting the truth at all, they are even inadmissible in court

would not know if they were guilty unless we had a trial. You'd like to try and prosecute the brave people of the CIA who have been working to keep you safe?! And if you believe they are guilty and what they say is a lie, you should have no trust in the American government at all. Although I was referring to the terrorists and not the CIA agents, I would love to see the agent's boss go on trial. oh, and if you BOTHERED TO READ THE THREAD I ALREADY POSTED ABOUT THE CASE YOU LINKED TO, AND ONE OF THE INTERROGATORS OF HIM SAID: One of the most striking parts of the memos is the false premises on which they are based. The first, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use harsh interrogation techniques on a high-ranking terrorist, Abu Zubaydah, on the grounds that previous methods hadnt been working. The next three memos cite the successes of those methods as a justification for their continued use. So no, torture did not save the day. http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Ma ... logId=7022 And from a leaked CIA document "issued by the International Committee for the Red Cross following two rounds of private interviews it held with the 14 "high value detainees" held at Guantanamo Bay." Oh, and also from that report http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-nick ... 01728.html There is another post in the previous pages of this topic that I link to the very subject that you brought up, but I guess it's too much to ask for you to read the god damn thread hunh? And congratulations CIA, you made the USA worse than Al-Qaida! Guess I'm not done after all

A news story where their source is the CIA is not empirical and you cannot know if they are guilty unless they have a trial. And lol at if we took them to a full trial blah blah blah Oh, and it sure isn't that bad hunh? http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2009-05-01 From a scientific journal. Anyway, last post

1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain of body or mind. I don't think you realize how much water boarding can [bleep] someone up, and you're justification for it being borderline is that there are worse. Awesome logic there. Now, my question still stands. Anyone care to link me to ANY empirical evidence that torture works when other methods do not? Until then I'm done with all the morons in this topic

The psychological harm is way worse than the physical. ^and drowning someone and then stopping it at the last second is borderline?! You're right because we wouldn't want to mentally harm the terrorists responsible for killing thousands of Americans. And if you think they are innocent, do you think they were just dropped into battle with a gun and they had no intention of killing anyone? Have you not read the thread? NONE of these "terrorists" have had trials. The USA offered REWARDS to turn in "terrorists". And of course they're going to be fighting USA, USA is invading THEIR country. All you're doing is rationalizing torture as an Al Qaida would

The psychological harm is way worse than the physical. ^and drowning someone and then stopping it at the last second is borderline?! I don't know how many of you checked the link when it was posted but http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...ens_video200808 Just thought I'd post this link, it's of a journalist volunteering to get water boarded to see what it's like. He doesn't last long at all and now has nightmares among other things related to it after just a few seconds of waterboarding. Imagine being water boarded literally hundreds of times with no safe words or precautions

The Wrestler had quite a few for me. Couple of the ones I remember the most are 1) The end, when he's talking to Marissa before going into the ring and what he says to her 2) His daughter never wanting to see him again 3) His heart attack and quite a few scenes after that

Pointless, they'll just step around the questions like in the tip it interview.