Necrobean

This isn't mine but it's one of the most interesting reads you'll ever have and every opposer of the legalization which will remain ignorant after reading this, is a plain idiot. Sit down, I have something to talk to you about. Your mother and I found this in your room last night. We understand that this is a difficult time in your life, but we want to make sure that you have all of the information before you continue what you are doing. These uninformed posts are addictive, making them is a habit that is hard to break, and ultimately you might ruin your life or risk too much if you walk around this world without... INFORMATION! So, lets have an honest talk about marijuana. "What information is out there on marijuana? And why do I need to know it? Why can I not rely on common sense?" you might ask. As Galileo once said, where your senses fail, reason must step in. Likewise, there are many basic facts about marijuana that people seem to think are true based on their own common sense. However, you might quickly learn that common sense is not exactly the best way to approach marijuana related issues. Let me give you an example. All of us have lived to see a cigarette smoker or two... they die of horrible diseases like lung cancer or heart disease, or they are forced into a life with several taxing surgeries and never are the same. We see people rushed out of burning buildings with smoke inhalation who then need to be placed on oxygen tanks, or who die. So we see people inhale marijuana smoke, and we only have cigarette smoke and house fires to compare it to... and likewise say, "Marijuana is bad for you because smoking ANYTHING is bad for you. It causes cancer, because smoke always causes cancer!" But this just is not the case. Smoking marijuana is different from the other kinds of smoke. Marijuana smoke is a bronchodilator, so tar does not get trapped in your lungs like nicotine. Furthermore, THC has been shown to have anti-carcinogenic properties, making this issue far more complicated. Let me introduce you to the scientific body of thought behind marijuana, cancer, and other diseases: Peer Reviewed Studies showing marijuana poses no cancer risk: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 29_pf.html Quote: The new findings "were against our expectations," said Donald Tashkin of the University of California at Los Angeles, a pulmonologist who has studied marijuana for 30 years. "We hypothesized that there would be a positive association between marijuana use and lung cancer, and that the association would be more positive with heavier use," he said. "What we found instead was no association at all, and even a suggestion of some protective effect." http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/ ... use-cancer Quote: According to Ford, he thought he would find an association between marijuana use and cancer, but "that the association would fall away when we corrected for tobacco use. That was not the case. The association was never there." http://www.isegoria.net/2009/02/marijua ... growth.htm Quote: Marijuana cuts lung cancer tumor growth in half, according to Harvard researchers: Other studies disproving the Marijuana cancer link: S. Sidney (September 1997). "Marijuana use and cancer incidence (California, United States)". Cancer Causes and Control 8 (5): 722-728. J. Huff & P. Chan (October 2000). "Antitumor Effects of THC". Environmental Health Perspectives 108 (10): A442-3. K.A. Rosenblatt et al. (1 June 2004). "Marijuana Use and Risk of Oral Squamous Cell Carcinoma". Cancer Research 64: 4049-4054. Parolaro and Massi. 2008. Cannabinoids as a potential new drug therapy for the treatment of gliomas. Expert Reviews of Neurotherapeutics 8: 37-49 Galanti et al. 2007. Delta9-Tetrahydrocannabinol inhibits cell cycle progression by downregulation of E2F1 in human glioblastoma multiforme cells. Acta Oncologica 12: 1-9. Calatozzolo et al. 2007. Expression of cannabinoid receptors and neurotrophins in human gliomas. Neurological Sciences 28: 304-310. Ramer and Hinz. 2008. Inhibition of cancer cell invasion by cannabinoids via increased cell expression of tissue inhibitor of matrix metalloproteinases-1. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 100: 59-69. Preet et al. 2008. Delta9-Tetrahydrocannabinol inhibits epithelial growth factor-induced lung cancer cell migration in vitro as well as its growth and metastasis in vivo. Oncogene 10: 339-346. Quote: Joint a day keeps alzheimers away http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20 ... alzheimers And all of a sudden, it becomes apparent that in this case, our senses have failed us. We must throw aside our anecdotal experiences and become informed in the science behind the issue. When I was younger, just turned 16 years old, I remember very clearly the day my best friend told me he smoked marijuana. Of course, up to that point, I had relied on my common senses as well, much like many of you here on Dailykos. I was taken aback... I felt hurt, betrayed. How could my best friend become a pothead? How could he put me in the situation to choose between his friendship and what I so obviously felt I know was morally reprehensible? So I launched a deluge at him. Told him that marijuana kills brain cells, that it caused cancer, that it caused infertility, that he was hurting himself, and how betrayed I felt. I kept trying to convince him that what he was doing was killing himself. He was good to me though and stayed calm through my assault on his newly found recreational activity. He calmly referred me to a series of studies, a page on marijuana myths, and systematically deconstructed my entire worldview on marijuana. Then I turned my hurt and anger to society and the government, because it had so obviously lied to me. I stopped trusting anything coming from the government, and I was appalled at how studies against marijuana were so flawed as to be intentionally intellectually dishonest. This too, I got over with over time, because it wasn't the government's fault that I felt so betrayed, nor was it my friends fault. The fault lied with me and only me, because I did not know the truth behind the issue. So then I turned to more research. I wanted to know WHY marijuana was illegal, and what the government itself said about marijuana. The more I researched, the more I learned. I never knew, for instance, that governments across the world, including our own federal and some state governments, have determined that marijuana is not a danger to society: Official commissions that have determined marijuana poses no great risk to society and should NOT be criminalized: Canadian Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs. 2002. Cannabis: Summary Report: Our Position for a Canadian Public Policy. Quote: We believe that the continued prohibition of cannabis jeopardizes the health and well-being of Canadians much more than does the substance itself or the regulated marketing of the substance. In addition, we believe that the continued criminalization of cannabis undermines the fundamental values set out in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and confirmed in the history of a country based on diversity and tolerance. California Research Advisory Panel. 1989. Twentieth Annual Report of the Research Advisory Panel. State Capitol: Sacramento. Quote: The Panel therefore suggests that the law be changed to permit cultivation [of marijuana] for personal use." Swiss Federal Commission for Drug Issues. 1999. Cannabis Report of the Swiss Federal Commission for Drug Issues. Swiss Federal Office of Public Health: Bern. Quote: "Following detailed consideration of the different options, the Federal Commission unanimously recommends the elaboration of a model which not only removes the prohibition of consumption and possession, but also makes it possible for cannabis to be purchased lawfully. New Zealand Parliamentary Health Select Committee. 1998. Inquiry into the Mental Health Effects of Cannabis. Parliament House: Wellington. Quote: We recommend that based on the evidence received, the government review the appropriateness of existing policy on cannabis and its use and reconsider the legal status of cannabis." United States National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse. 1972. Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding (The Shafer Report). U.S. Government Printing Office: Washington, DC. Quote: "The Commission recommends only the following changes in federal law: Possession of marihuana for personal use would no longer be an offense. ... Casual distribution of small amounts of marihuana for no remuneration, or insignificant remuneration not involving profit would no longer be an offense." More commissions finding that possession should be legal: the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse (the Shafer Report) (1973); the Canadian Government's Commission of Inquiry (Le Dain Report) (1970); The British Advisory Committee on Drug Dependency (Wooton Report) (1968); Still, you say, what about the studies against marijuana out there? You want to go looking throughout the internet to find contrary studies? I can probably even tell you right now which studies that you will find to support your case, and then exactly why those studies are severely flawed and not respected in the scientific community. The two most common studies that prohibitionists use are the link between cannabis and lung cancer shown by a New Zealand study that focused on a sample size of only 81 people (the biggest study that I showed you was a sample size of 20,000 people), and of those 81, 90% smoked tobacco at the same time. Tobacco use was not controlled for. Another study you will find is the testicular cancer risk study. This study does not control for patients who are smoking marijuana, ironically enough, BECAUSE of their cancer. Furthermore, the investigators themselves admit that the link is weak and needs much more research, and it should not be used to support the claim of marijuana causes a form of testicular cancer. Furthermore, the testicular cancer they speak about is a very rare one and is made just slightly more common by smoking marijuana. Still, the chances of any individual developing this cancer are astronomically low. Fatty acids, yellow 5, and high fructose corn syrup have better links to cancer. Another study you will find are in vitro studies, where claims are made such as "marijuana has carcinogenic properties on such and such cells" or "Marijuana smoke contains more such and such than tobacco smoke." The problems with these studies are that the in-vitro studies never seem to hold up in vivo. Tashkin, the author of the biggest marijuana safety study ever, was once vehemently against marijuana. Look up Donald Tashkin yourself and find this out. He changed though when he realized that in-vitro studies ignored the possible carcino-protective effects that THC seems to have, and when his in-vivo research supported this. Furthermore, in-vitro studies on strictly THC show that it indeed DOES have carcino-protective effects, and it is actually available as a topical ointment for skin cancer. As for the "contains more tar" studies, this ignores that "tar" is a VERY vague term, not a scientific one, that includes any residues. The residues of marijuana are easier to remove from the lungs because they are not trapped like they are when nicotine is smoked, which constricts your bronchioles and traps the tar. But the matter remains, even if marijuana IS dangerous, prohibition makes marijuana more dangerous. Banned pesticides, glass dust, and illegal fertilizers make it into marijuana just for the higher profit margins, because marijuana is illegal, untaxed, and unregulated. Furthermore, many argue that legalization of marijuana would increase use, but if you look at the netherlands, they use marijuana at just over 20%, whereas 40% of Americans and 56.7% of Americans age 18-28 have smoked marijuana. 800,000 marijuana smokers are arrested each year. That is millions of people that now have a drug conviction on their record, making them harder to employ, boosting unemployment and decreasing revenue. Why do we allow smoking marijuana to destroy the professional prospects of millions of Americans, while alcohol use is considered acceptable? Doctors are accepted every day into medical school who drink, but those who smoke marijuana are not allowed due to drug tests. The same applies for jobs all throughout the economy for marijuana smokers. Furthermore, 500 dollars per arrest is spent, adding up to hundreds of millions of dollars in cost. It costs 30,000 a year to imprison someone, why not just turn them into the backbone of a new economy and free up prison space? Why not encourage cops to go after violent criminals instead of farmers? I believe that if we do decide to legalize marijuana, we will see many benefits: 1 - It will instantly provide a multibillion dollar industry to the united states. The state that legalizes will experience a big boom in their economy in just a few days. 2 - Medical users could then smoke freely instead of taking pain medicines that are damaging to their health. 3 - Non-medical users that smoke will face less liver-toxicity if they take when they have a headache than eating tylenol. 4 - 30,000 dollars a year is spent to keep a prisoner in prison. More if it is in a federal penetentiary, where several marijuana growers are spending hard time. Legalizing not only will provide an instant gain in the money that it normally costs to keep these people in prison, but will turn them into taxpaying members of society, or hell, maybe even entrepreneurs. 5 - It will reduce many billions of dollars that we spend fighting corruption in the United States caused by the mexican drug cartels, and the drug cartels themselves. 6 - It will reduce the national security concerns of the above as well. 7 - Hemp will be an even big industry. Hemp will bring in much more money than other paper sources. 8 - Marijuana is good for the environment. It produces a lot of oxygen, and it is much more quickly grown than pine forests, which face heavy deforestation every year. It is a very renewable source of paper and tough fiber. 9 - It will make the people feel good about their government not intruding on their lives unjustly. 10 - Imagine the sort of coffeeshops, smoke bars, paraphernalia, etc... the peripheral market for marijuana will be amazing. 11 - It will eliminate 60% of the violent mexican drug cartel's funding directly. The other 40%, cocaine, will be significantly reduced due to the virtual death of the black market centering around marijuana. 12 - It will draw people away from alcohol and cigarettes, which are much more dangerous and deadly. 13 - Marijuana is actually carcino-suppressive, cuts your chances of getting lung cancer in half, and is neuro-protective, meaning that people who do drink on marijuana will possibly see less brain damage. Furthermore, as in point 12, who would drink all day when you could smoke weed all day? We may see less people drink alcohol as a result. 14 - It costs 500 dollars every time we arrest someone for Marijuana. That does not take into account all of the maintainence programs, drug rehab programs that we pay for when they are on probation, drug testing, and constant purchasing of equipment meant to find marijuana growers. This will save billions of dollars in legalization. So what can you do about the situation? Well, anything! Just talk to people about your feelings on the issue, and hell, even if you are against it, engage in open debate and open discussion. This is something that our nation absolutely needs to talk about. Here is what I did recently: 870 AM broadcasted out of Louisiana reaches hundreds of thousands of listeners, and at night, its broadcast range is all the way to Chicago. The topic tonight was the legalization of marijuana. The host is VERY supportive of legalization, and this is a guy that is just a regular old person, a radio talk show host, older guy, who never smoked, but just sees to much benefit in it. I called in, and had a great conversation with him, and my call has been referenced multiple times tonight... it was a great feeling. Anyways, just get the message out there, folks. Here is what I said: Quote: Hello, my name is ***** and I am calling because I strongly believe marijuana should be legalized. Anyone who believes marijuana is dangerous needs to realize that prohibition makes marijuana magnitudes more dangerous. Illegal pesticides, fertilizers, and even glass dust can be found in marijuana at times for extra profit because marijuana is legal, untaxed, and most importantly, unregulated. Prohibition has not curbed supply or demand, it has only made the illegal black market for marijuana more lucrative. Someone can work hard for 12 months in this economy and get 30,000 a year, or grow 12 plants in 3 months with little effort for the same money. Its a multi-billion dollar industry for drug cartels, who then arm themselves to protect their proffits. All of this goes away with legalization. I also talked about how 800,000 people a year are arrested each year, and the lost revenue from them having a drug conviction on their records probably costs us tons of money in lost taxes... I mean, hell, in 10 years, 8 million people will have a drug conviction on record and be very hard to emply. An hour later, he said: Quote: "When we planned this show this afternoon, I was deathly afraid. I thought people would think I went crazy and was out of my mind, and that we'd have a fierce debate... but even still, not one person has called agianst legalization. That should say something to our politicians." So with that, I leave it up to all of you to go out and inform yourselves on this very important issue. Hopefully you leave this diary a little less uninformed than when you entered. Knowledge is power, use it wisely. Quote: "The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this." Albert Einstein, "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921 And as Gandhi said: First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you... then you win. Update: A poster bellow wanted more sources for other claims, so I have included them here: Marijuana already Is a multi-billion dollar industry. Hell, even in just British Columbia, it is a 7.5 billion dollar industry. In the US, it would be much higher: http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/tax.html As far as billions to fight corruption and violence caused by the cartels, the DEA is not the only agency that fights the cartels. ICE, local, state, and federal police are fighting the cartel members that have popped into over 200 cities. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/world ... .html?_r=1 "U.S. May Provide Billions to Mexico to Fight Drug Cartels" For a graphical representation of how much money is spent in just the legal issues on marijuana and crime: Another Update: I strongly recommend anyone reading thus far and entering the debate to also check out these studies with regards to THC and its protective effect against cancer. This website has compiled 35 studies showing that THC seems to prevent cancer and be anti-carcinogenic: http://www.safeaccess.ca/research/cancer.htm

What do you guys think about Sage francis by the way? Probably been posted before but I've really been getting into him (read: only listening to escape artist) any albums you guys could suggest me? Though Ky-mani marley isn't a weak imitation of his father at all, try listening to Alborosie & Ky-mani marley - Natural mystic. Awesome song!

I noticed that Damian Marley kind of leans to "Gangsta reggae" :lol: if you could call it that. I find it a bit disrespective to his father but i'll still listen to it. I'm not a fan of Nas though. Hopefully it'll be something diffirent, fresh.

LSD doesn't make your brain bleed and it doesn't stay in your spine forever. America's drug myths are so funny :lol:

Rap, people, rap. Look man if you want to impress me with metal come with groups like Chakal, Holocausto, Mutilator, Sepultura, Overdose, Sarcó [bleep]o, Anthares, Atomica, Blasthrash, Bywar, Executer, Korzus, Torture Squad, Apokalyptic Raids, Diabolic Force, Flageladör, Hellkommander, Sodomizer. That's from my metal collection from back in the days hanging with my 26 year old brother picking up tracks from back to the end of the 80's.

moar mainstream metal plx.

Meh, yeah. Although I saw him more of a guy whom would say; I'm tough I listen to real metal like Korn, Slipknot, Bfmv and Metallica cause they're OLDSCHOOL! :lol:

Your voice counts as an instrument. Rappers use their voices, using their intelligence and creativity to create lyrics. Therefore it is music. You should probably learn things like this before you post. :P lol. /jk. When we were talking about rap I thought we were talking about the kind of underground rap. I dont usually read pages previous to the latest few posts. Guess I should then eh? Oh and yeah I do have to be a troll, obviously, because I am a troll. Obviously. EDIT: It's also kinda funny how I agree with someones post and I get flamed originally, not them, even though they addressed this point prior to me. wait, thats not funny, thats kinda pathetic/ignorant that you cant address the original poster aswell as the agree'er. EDIT2: Mainstream 'rap' isnt even music either. As pryomancer stated (or someone else, I think it was Pryo though, or Nads) It shows emotion. A dictionary isnt always in-times ;p. Now-a-days, music has instruments, Rapping for one, usually doesnt unless it's hip-hop, and rapping =/= music anyway, its RAP. And for the opera/whatever Quoi said, that's singing and pretty much has nothing to with music in general, even though sometimes it has violins etc? That's like saying a kids read-a-long tape is music because it shows emotion :XD: ? What do you listen to anyway?

BonoBeanHead - Phatacidz. Bigbeat/hiphop-ish song made by me :lol: .

I feel actually quite embarassed that I haven't included Atmosphere now. They're very good, I like them a lot. For some reason I'm into Sy-klon these days; A so called psychedelic rapper, underground.

Malicious got me into Darkpsy DJ Hype got me into DnB Ragga brothers got me into Jungle FFF got me into breakcore Blipkreig (Member of tif!) got me into Chiptune Rusko got me into Dubstep Sounds of acid core vol. 1 (album) got me into Acid X-clan/NWA/Eazy E got me into Rap Magic mike/Newcleus got me into Hiphop Alborosie got me into Reggae Screwball got me into Rave And I think I found Sepultura's first EP in my brothers room when I was very young, that got me into metal. Jeez, everytime I type things like that I'm astonished of how much music i've acquired through the years. Most of it is even legal.

I have way, way more. But I don't think you'd like that; mostly G-funk/Gangsta from the 90's and some psychedelic hiphop and artists like A tribe called quest. I could sum up some more if you want. Always willing to help a fellow fan out!

+1 Well, rap literally isnt music. Music does require instruments/whatever you call whats made from a turntable, or just noises. Rap is *rap* not music. Hi, I'm RayOxide. I like to play Runescape because really it makes me totally awesome, other then that I like to look down upon other genres of music. Why? Because I like a flame war started by my stupid arguments. Yes, I know. It really does sound idiotic but that's just who I am. Nothing can beat me! You're cool, you're cool...

In most cases, heroin, meth, and coke lead to this. Laws are changed in order to give benefits to society. Can you honestly tell me that these are beneficial? You need more support than "cause I don't want to be told what to do". I heard your argument loud and clear but it's lame. I guess suicide bombing should be legal too. You're ignoring the significant effect these drugs leave on society. These significant effects on society are due to the drug war and their illegal status.

Blotted Science - Laser lobotomy. For the guitar lovers, listen to it RIGHT NOW!

I've been gone for a long, long time so here goes, prepare it's going to be a long post; Don't take this is a strict guide of what to listen to. I haven't heard it all, I don't have the time to listen to every single thing I get recommended to right away. Music is also subjective, so I may like some things you guys may not, or you may like some things I may not. This is just simply a listing of what I would recommend to people just getting into hip hop/rap (mainly underground which is all anyone posts about here anyway.) Without further ado, here is a list of artists and groups I recommend to those of you looking to expand your horizons: MF Doom - Very well may be my personal favorite MC. Works under plenty of aliases (Viktor Vaughn, King Geedorah, Zev Love X, produces under Metal Fingers, and others.) Listen to Operation: Doomsday. Aesop Rock - One of the many talented and popular artists off of the Definitive Jux record. Def Jux is where I got my start listening to hip hop, and it's probably the most popular underground label. A lot of people like to think they're cool or hip or some [cabbage] because they know about Def Jux artists. Don't let yourself fall into this, while Def Jux has a lot of strong people, they also have weak [cabbage] in my opinion, and there is sooooo much great stuff beyond Def Jux. My favorite Aesop works are actually before he was on Def Jux though. Food for Earthworms and Appleseed are a little harder to find, since they were before he was anything, but definitely my two favorite releases by him. Since I just mentioned Aesop, I'll mention the rest of the Def Jukies that I enjoy. Mr. Lif - One of the two first people I started listening to. More politically minded, and he has sick dreads. Akrobatik - The other person I first started listening to. His old stuff is awesome in my mind, pure boom-bap braggadocio, but still clever. Together with DJ Fakts one, Mr. Lif and Akrobatik (they're both from Boston, by the way, and have been doing stuff together forever) form the group (supergroup in some people's minds) The Perceptionists. Their first LP was pretty critically hailed, even by the glossy magazines like Rolling Stone. Murs is solid, someone I definitely don't listen to enough. Together with 9th Wonder he puts out some really good albums. El-P - Owner of Def Jux. Used to be part of Company Flow (check them out too, good [cabbage].) Probably best known for his spacey and futuristic production, he also can do a decent job on the microphone. His newest album, I'll Sleep When You're Dead, or his first one, Fantastic Damage, are both worth checking out. Cannibal Ox - Only put out one album in 2001, The Cold Vein produced by El-P, but it's still a fantastic album. Cannibal Ox is made up of Vast Air, who still releases solo albums and does other work, and Vordul Mega. Cage - I'm not a huge fan of his, but I'd say he's worth checking out if you're looking for new stuff to get into. He's kind of an angsty white dude (similar to Eminem in some ways) and he's good, just not necessarily what I like. I do own some of his [cabbage] though, I would recommend checking out Hell's Winter, his debut on Def Jux, or any of his earlier stuff. And, my personal favorite, Del the Funkee Homosapien. He just signed to Def Jux recently I'm pretty sure, and he's [bleep]ing awesome. A lot of people on these boards would include him as one of their favorite rap artists. Also raps under the alias Deltron 3030. If you've heard the Gorillaz song Clint Eastwood then you've heard Del before (he does the rapping part, if you couldn't figure that out.) Moving from Def Jux, but flowing from Del, is the group Hieroglyphics, which Del is a member of. Check out their album Full Circle, it's pretty good. Of course there's the legendary Wu-Tang Clan. For a whole group, I would recommend starting where they started, with Enter the Wu-Tang: 36 Chambers. Classic [bleep]ing album. They just released a new album for the first time in a while, too, called 8 Diagrams. Definitely worth checking out. When it comes to solo Wu-Tang, nothing beats GZA's Liquid Swords. In my opinion it's the best hip-hop/rap album ever. Nothing tops it. It's produced by RZA (Wu's legendary producer) so the beats solid too. Ghostface Killah may be my favorite Wu member overall. His three most recent LP's, The Big Doe Rehab, More Fish, and Fishscale (from newest to oldest) are all solid albums, More Fish is a little weaker than the other two though, so start with Big Doe and Fishscale. Inspectah Deck, U-God, Masta Killa, Raekwon the Chef make up the rest of the remaining Wu-Tang members, along with the deceased (:sad:) Ol' Dirty Bastard. There are also tons of Wu-Tang affiliates, including my favorite Cappadonna. Since I don't feel like writing all day about Wu and their affiliates you can find plenty of info on all of that [cabbage] on Wikipedia. Just go to Wu-Tangs page and wander from there. Next is the legendary Roots. Awesome, awesome hip-hop. It's a full band, the most notable member is ?uestlove the drummer. If you've seen a big dude with a [cabbage]ty 'fro and a pick talking about rap/hip-hop on VH1 or MTV, chances are it was him. They also have a bassist, keyboardist, percussionist, guitarist, and the MC Blackthought. I don't remember all of the members names, you can look it up if you want. I'd really recommend any album, but lately I've been listening to their newest one Game Theory. Also, if you ever get the chance, check them out live. Kind of like a hip hop jam band, all of the guys are really talented and Kirk (guitarist) can really work the crowd. A group I'm not too fond of but have a really solid following none-the-less is Jedi Mind Tricks. Along with Lif and Akrobatik these guys really got me into this music, but I rarely listen to them anymore. I'd recommend Violent by Design as a place to start. That was the last album with all three of the members; Jus Allah, Ikon the Verbal Hologram aka Vinny Paz and Stoop the Enemy of Man Kind, who is a pretty solid producer. After this Jus Allah had a big fallout with them and released a [cabbage]ty solo album and then had a fallout with some other people. Last I checked him and Jedi Mind Tricks have solved their differences, they may even be recording together again, I don't know. Jus was definitely the glue to that group though, everything after VBD is garbage in my mind. Someone I'm rather fond of that I find really isn't too popular is Tame One. He kinda runs with Cage, they've recorded together before, but I think he's way better. Before he did solo stuff he was one half of Artifacts, a solid semi old school duo worth checking out. As for his solo stuff I would recommend When Rappers Attack, or if you want a more "out there" album check out Spazzmatic, definitely cool but [bleep]ing weird. Probably my favorite rap group would be Cunninlynguists. I absolutely love these guys. Kno, the main producer, puts together awesome [bleep]ing beats, and has gotten recognition from pretty major media outlets like URB. Deacon the Villain also does some of the production, but is better known as an MC. Along with those two, who have been on every CL album, is Natti who has been with them for the last few years, and in their early years Mr. SOS was with them. I'd recommend A Piece of Strange. I would put this in my top 3 favorite hip hop albums. If you're looking for odder [cabbage], along the lines of Spazzmatic if you've checked that out, I would tell you to turn to Kool Keith, more specifically his Dr. Octagon releases. Dr. Octagonecologyst is a classic psychedelic hip hop album, and probably the only one I listen to. When looking for Kool Keith [cabbage] you may stumble across Dr. Dooom, don't confuse this with MF Doom, Dr. Dooom is one of Kool Keith's billions of aliases (if you thought MF Doom had a lot, it doesn't even [bleep]ing compare to how many Kool Keith has.) Another one of my favorite artists has to be Edan. Both a producer and MC, he is just awesome. Check out his album Beauty and the Beat. I think he would be my first recommendation to people on these boards. You can also find some pretty sweet videos online of him working the mic and turntables at the same time, which I think is pretty impressive. Immortal Technique is another oft-mentioned artist when it comes to underground rap, especially on this board. Frankly I'm not nearly as fond of him as a lot of people, but he's still worth checking out. Revolutionary Volume 1 and 2 are both worth checking out. Jurrasic 5 - Another group I'm not as fond of as most, but once again look into them. Power in Numbers is a good album. Lupe Fiasco isn't underground really, but I still enjoy both of his albums and would recommend them to people who are looking for new [cabbage]. Blackstar, made up of Mos Def and Talib Kweli is a pretty popular duo. To be honest I don't know if they've released more than one album together, but their solo stuff is also worth checking out. I personally like Talib Kweli far more than Mos Def, but Mos Def's Black on Both Sides is a really popular album. As far as Talib, he just put an album out this year that's been getting lots of praise called Eardrum. People Under the Stairs is a group that I honestly don't know [cabbage] about. I don't even know how I found out about them. All I know is I have a few albums of theirs on my computer, and I really like 'em. Listen to some of there stuff, and look 'em up on Wikipedia if you want to know more, I probably will once I finish this long [bleep]ing post. Platinum Pied Pipers is another group I'm not sure how I found out about, but I really like the [cabbage] they put out. I'm pretty sure it's just a production duo from Detroit (maybe I got to them through J Dilla), but if I'm wrong I apologize. Either way check 'em out, cool [cabbage]. As per Mattz request, I'll throw Canibus up on here. Honestly I'm not a huge fan, although I will say that the album Rip the Jacker is pretty [bleep]ing solid. Lastly, three producers I think you should look into. J Dilla :sad: It's really too bad so many people didn't start finding out about him until after he died. Amazing [bleep]ing producer. I don't even know what to recommend, just make sure you listen to his stuff. Madlib Another awesome producer. Has put out tons of great collaboration albums. My two favorites are Madliberation with Talib Kweli and Madvillainy with MF Doom (together they are known as Madvillain.) He also put out and album with J Dilla under Jaylib, some people like it, some people don't. If I remember correctly Madlib strictly handles the production (I'm sure J Dilla had some say, but it was mostly Madlib) and Dilla stuck to the mic. Last is Peanut Butter Wolf, who is also the owner of Madlib's label Stone's Throw. He makes some realllllllly weird/spacey [cabbage], but I find it particularly enjoyable if I'm in the mood for it. So there's a list of places to start looking. It's actually quite shorter than I could have made it. Partially because I didn't want to be writing this all day, partially because I forgot [cabbage], and partially because there's really a lot of great stuff out there (I'm told) that I haven't heard yet. If you read this and there isn't an artist mentioned that you think should be.

Sonz of a loop da loop Era. Especially the songs Calm Downizm and Far out. UK Rave/Hardcore.

After saying A, inevitably comes B. Go on, opinions shouldn't be flamed.

You do realise they are talking about decriminalization/legalizing to get out of debt? (eg. Cali.) Edit: I've been reading some posts in this topic about MJ harming your health. Lung cancer you say? You can make edibles, now what with your puny arguments ;) ?

America is a two sided blade. Some states are legalizing MM (medi-) whilst others are still being raided daily by the DEA; I sincerely hope there will either be legalization or decriminalization for ALL drugs. Marijuanna is a start but it's not the governments choice when you want to put something in your body. If the government of America wasn't so stupid it would realize that alcohol is worse, drunk drivers and deaths due to alcohol enough. Marijuanna? None to date. Now what about Nicotine? Nicotine isn't even in the drug laws if they would put it in, looking at how poisonous and how there is no recreational (none in my personal opinion) nor medicinal use for it, why is it legal then? Compare that to marijuanna and everyone should be convinced that it should get legalized (Either for recreational or medicinal use.) I hope we're going towards a sunny future, no more square-thinking or looking down upon people when they toke up. Society of today is dirty, bah. Although there is one catch, I wouldn't want to buy MJ from your Uncle sam, I've read articles enough that the MJ is badly grown or it doesn't give the expected effects and neither would I want to buy it from companies, I'll stick to my little homegrown plant, atleast I know what to expect then. e.g: http://www.kcby.com/news/local/41656667.html

It's been a long, long time since I posted again on Tif. Mostly because I've been quite busy with life and the discussions in the OT have spiraled a bit downwards, yet I miss it. Here goes, another weird picture from the Skirt-wearing, weird [wagon] Necrobean & his awesome sister, I've been mostly toking up, hanging out with this awesome girl (which actually has a skirt-on-guy-fetish which is perfect), have found a new love for Dubstep (Check out Rusko's essential mix!) and Acid/Breakcore (mostly ragga influenced), my sister's been doing perfectly in school having good grades and living quite a swell life. We've had a bit of issues with some things but that's morely private. Thank you Tif anyway for all the good times : ! I look weird on that pic -_- ...Looking fine as usual?

Bah, suicide, pathetic.

And yet again it is California who takes the first step; Introduce mj legalisation. The whole so-called "Drug war" is ridicilous. For people disapproving drugs, just do -for once- your research instead of believing the [cabbage] the government feeds you. -Renate : .

I reject the distinction between the two as I mentioned earlier. Hip hop music now is just an evolution from hip hop then. edit - You mention some pretty good tracks though, I was listening to Paid in Full earlier. Hmm there is a distinction though; Hip hop is more music-based whilst rap focuses on lyrics. But meh we're both diffirent persons, diffirent interpretations. Got some tracks yourself that you're willing to share?