tryto

You simply cannot have an argument on these kinds of topics without the burden of proof. Zero proof of something existing can never fully disprove ANYTHING. If you say that there is a Macdonalds that sells invisible hamburgers , there is no way that I can disprove that, ever. I can go to every Macdonalds worldwide, and I can never prove your claim false. I can prove it correct, but I can never prove it incorrect.

I just wanted to say: We're both making a claim. If, for example, I tried to prove that the McDonald's company does not exist, would you not demand I make the burden of proof? You could theoretically go and find it - you know it exists. I would be saying it does not. McD-nostics would not have an opinion either way. This public service announcement (The View from the Other Side) is brought to you by PBS. No, not at all. Read up on the philosophical Burden of Proof. If I said that Mcdonalds did exist, I have the burden of proof, as I am making a POSITIVE claim. You are making a negative claim and do not have the burden of proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof If I said that there was a dragon hiding under my bed, would you not ask for some sort of proof or to see this dragon for yourself? I merely ask the same thing of religion. If, in response to your ask for proof, I gave you a book that I wrote about it, would you not argue that that proof is insufficient? It is the same with the Bible.

I just wanted to say: We're both making a claim. If, for example, I tried to prove that the McDonald's company does not exist, would you not demand I make the burden of proof? You could theoretically go and find it - you know it exists. I would be saying it does not. McD-nostics would not have an opinion either way. This public service announcement (The View from the Other Side) is brought to you by PBS. No, not at all. Read up on the philosophical Burden of Proof. If I said that Mcdonalds did exist, I have the burden of proof, as I am making a POSITIVE claim. You are making a negative claim and do not have the burden of proof. EDIT: Oops. Read my lower post.

Don't be an idiot. If you don't care what you're talking about, why should I debate with you?

The underlined portion I never said. I even said earlier that's not what I said. Furthermore, nowhere did I say they all professed to hear the word of God. I said, and I quote (Page 98): Utopianflame wrote: Sly, they profess to *follow* the word of god, not to hear it personally. Sly Wizard wrote: ...Apparently you're not familiar with the concept of prayer in most religions. Now by my (and apparently Tryto's as well) understanding that is saying that prayer is hearing the word of god personally. *Ahem* I said that different people of different religions pray and claim to hear the word of God/gods/goddesses, not that they pray and claim to hear the word of God, making it seem as if all religions follow one God, which is what tryto was implying. I was implying it because when ginger asked why the majority did not believe in the Christian God, you brought all religions into it, implying that all religions are spoken to by the same god and all carry a shred of truth. You said: This implies to me that all religions contain the same messages, albeit with different interpretations. You're giving conflicting messages.

No, it's assuming that allowance and apathy towards evil is malevolent. If you had the power to miraculously heal the sick at no cost to you, it would be evil not to do so. That is the argument. Name the verse and the greater good, and your point may become valid.

Football/soccer is the most popular, far and away. I'd say that hockey is the most fascinating to watch.

Yes, that's what he said. Now how does that go against what I wrote out in the post you quoted? You said that believing a religion and praying is hearing the word of God. You, furthermore, cited ALL religions under that catagory, implying that all of them heard the word of God. Why would God speak and guide someone who is so obviously flouting one of his most important doctrines? Yes, I know what you said. Generally, when one says that people like to make things up, they're insinuating that they're not true. Answer the question. You say that all religions have a grain of truth. You are defending Christianity(seems to me you're playing a very involved game of Devil's Advocate from your posts, but meh), so I would assume that you believe that it holds the main truth or most truth of all the religions. How did you come to this conclusion. I'm dumb. You're gonna' have to rewrite this is a way I can understand <_< It's not a truth; it's BS. It's wishful thinking. It's an inadequate defence when someone says that some things in the Bible are unoriginal. I've seen it used often. It goes right against your bible. Clear enough for ya? Sly: Atheists are not making the positive claim that God exists. They are making a negative claim that he does not. Theists are making the positive claim here, so they have the burden of proof. Absence of evidence, is nearly evidence of absence.

Ah, it's the old "The plurality of religions means none of them are true!" argument, which is more or less asinine as it completely ignores-- Or, should I say, discounts-- The fact that all religions are merely a reflection of the ultimate form of truth. And, no, nowhere did I say that all gods were the same (I've no idea where you got that from). In this very thread, though, I did say that it's entirely possible that different people have different interpretations of the same message, much like the game telephone (I think it's on the last page. Not sure). The Christian God repeatedly says that there is no God but him, frequently punished Israel for not following him exclusively, etc, etc. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that it proves humanity makes things up. Why are you not worshiping Ra right now? How do you know that Christianity is the archetypal religion? I would completely disagree that that is a truth; more of a wish for Christianity to ignore the other religions which teach many of the same messages and hold many similar events.

Because, you know, that's precisely what I said :| No, I said that there are more than just three religions in the world that profess who profess to hear the word of God/gods/goddesses etc.. There's Hinduism and some sects of Buddhism, for example (Yes, contrary to popular belief, some sects of Buddhism do worship a god). ...There is just one question I feel as if I must ask. "Who are you?" lol That actually doesn't help your argument all that much. Using Abrahamic Gods does, but bringing in the polytheistic Hindus and such does not. They believe in vastly different gods, which are not the same. Are you asserting that Ra, Zeus, and Neptune are all the same God as yours? It seems to me that the existence of so many vastly different gods helps to prove the point that humanity likes to make things up, not that everyone is talking to God.

Actually, it's a false dilemma, as stated above (Which you totally missed). Reading skills ftl. Me wonders why I bother sometimes. Congratulations for catching on. Better late than never. No, it's a logical fallacy. You just admitted you did one, I'm simply added two more. You might want to look it up sometime. Just because it happens to a lot of people, it doesn't mean they're right. At one point, nearly everyone believed that the Earth was flat, although the Greeks had proven it was a spheroid long before.

It's a response to someone's response? Okay. We can play this game. The number of people who claim to have heard God's voice throughout the ages far, far, far, far, far outnumber those who don't. So we can either come to one of three conclusions: 1.) God does indeed exist and talk to everyone, yet there are people who listen or 2.) God doesn't exist and a large number of the human population, both past and present, are crazy. I'll go with option 1, especially considering 100% of the human population has never agreed on anything. (Granted, it's a bit of a false dilemma, but you get the point.) Once again, good luck backing that statement up. Argumentum ad populum Argumentum ad antiquitatem hmm. Maybe I'll play your fallacy back. The majority of the world doesn't believe in Jesus's divinity. Therefore, he wasn't the son of God. The majority of the world aren't christians, therefore you're wrong. See how stupid an argument that is? This material object thing is stupendously pointless; if God is as in the Bible and can do anything, of course he can circumvent physical laws and make sounds from immaterial.

Evolution isn't one stage of change, evolution is a constant and the human race even continues to evolve, we've become taller and unfortunately more susceptible to disease as we've evolved for the modern world. Not sure about the taller thing, but yes, more susceptible to disaease. Allergies in particular are a great example. Remember that evolution takes thousands of years plus, so a noticeable physical change could take a very long period of time. Vestigal organs{like muscles attached to the ear(they do not develop enough to be of use as in other primates), and the tailbone }and dormant DNA is yet another example; some instances of these have been nearly eradicated, but some humans can actually grow tails, albeit it's very rare. Toes are some of the more recent physical changes in humans. Saruman, answer the question. Do you believe the earth is circa 10,000 years old. First of all, answer my post. Second, what's the question? I was just commenting on how there were giants back then. I mean, if you mean time, then yes, I do. How can you just "beleive" something still when it has been proven wrong so many times? Because while yes, there are some scientists who say that carbon dating is reliable, many also differ. I for one, am not sure. But I'mstill deciding. And to be quite honest, I'm not sure how old the Earth is, some Christians say 4k, others 10k, others billions of years. All I believe is that it's not even a million years old, but am not quite sure how much. And Tryto, I wasn't talking about Noah, just Mount Arafat. It's also funny how no one is commenting on my post. :-k (the one about the parable.) I know, but I couldn't find anything BUT Noah stuff. You didn't say anything about Noah, I know. I just couldn't find ANYTHING about it :P I find the Christian method of finding answers is the opposite of the correct scientific method. Christians believe they already have all the answers in the bible. They start with the conclusion, then find things to support it. You believe that the universe is only a million years old. Are all these atheist scientists lying to you? Are several different methods of finding age from fossils wrong, even though they are all independent and agree with each other? Did the devil put them there? Did God put them there to test your faith? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth What do you say to that? @Sly: What do we need to do to prove he is material? Find a quote from the Bible saying he is material outright? It's just plain not falsifiable. (And I was referring to the fact that in other places he is immaterial, yet is said to be everywhere and stays in one spot in the Bible. It was written by many authors, and barely any of them agree, lol )

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The biggest flaw in this argument: Failing to recognize that almost every religion differentiates between the natural and the spiritual. God does not fall into the former category, but the latter. No one created God as God is not material. That is, he's non-corporeal. I'd disagree fundamentally with that, but yes, it can be a weak argument. I don't use it, unless replying to someone. Genesis 3:8: Then the man and the wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden... He can be both material and immaterial, it seems :P. EDIT: Deism, To Voltaire at least, believed that a creator put everything in motion, Big Bang and such, then skipped out and hid from us. It's basically a cop-out to avoid the creation question, I'd say. EDIT2: God, is simply not falsifiable, which irks me, to say the least. :P

It's called deism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism I didn't want to comment upon tallness increases because I haven't researched it. I have a much more negative view of religion than you also. Due to the Law of Conservation of Energy, a single beginning point with the Big Bang is clearly impossible(Same with God). A constant cycle of Big Bangs and singularities makes the most sense to me right now. Think about it. Theists often argue that God started the Big Bang, or some hogwash like that, because we don't know for certain what started it. Just apply that concept to God. What created him? We should then be worshiping his creator, right? But who created the creator of us? It's infinite regression. Saruman, I did a quick search and found nothing besides hoaxes of findings of Noah's Ark. Please point me to an essay or journal about it. (If that's what you mean, your last post wasn't even to me) If you honestly believe in a young Earth, in face of complete agreement between all scientists of any repute, in the face of multiple styles of radio-carbon dating, in the face of calculations about the age of stars based upon distances and the speed of light, we simply cannot have an intelligent discussion.

Evolution isn't one stage of change, evolution is a constant and the human race even continues to evolve, we've become taller and unfortunately more susceptible to disease as we've evolved for the modern world. Not sure about the taller thing, but yes, more susceptible to disaease. Allergies in particular are a great example. Remember that evolution takes thousands of years plus, so a noticeable physical change could take a very long period of time. Vestigal organs{like muscles attached to the ear(they do not develop enough to be of use as in other primates), and the tailbone }and dormant DNA is yet another example; some instances of these have been nearly eradicated, but some humans can actually grow tails, albeit it's very rare. Toes are some of the more recent physical changes in humans. Saruman, answer the question. Do you believe the earth is circa 10,000 years old.

Your problem is that you don't know what the scientific definition of "theory". In science, a theory is not a "guess". It is a model that has been proven correct many, many times, and has never been shown to be incorrect. Guess what else is a theory? The Theory of Gravity. The Theory of Electro-magnetism is a theory, but it's powering your computer right now. Come on. Evolution is such an easy theory to disprove. Just find a human bone as we are now dated at the wrong time. It's so easy. Too bad it won't happen ;) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html ^Essay on the differences on the word theory in public and scientific vernaculars. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... opic_id=46 ^General evolutionary proofs.

I would venture to say that living forever would be the ultimate torture. If there is no sin in heaven, does that mean we lose our free will? We can't do any wrong there; do we become slaves of God? Yes we do, but it doesn't stop us from gathering up one-third of the angels and starting a revolution :lol: You two(flyingjj and saruman), answer the rest of my post please so I can see if it's worth discussing the topic with you any longer. Do you literally believe that the Earth is circa 10,000 years old? Of course it's biased. Everyone should actually read the Bible for themselves, critically analyzing it, and admitting to themselves that it WAS written by men. If, afterwards, you find yourself stronger in your religion, great. But if not, then you should continue to question. Don't bring your pre-mediated ideas in with you; read it as if you were reading an ancient manuscript written by bronze age herdsman( :P ) Did you know that more atheists/agnostics have read the bible than Christians? Just in the same way you can take parts of the bible to be literal and parts to be figurative. Just in the way you say you worship the entire book and yet are not Jewish. I'm assuming that you eat pork, shellfish, and wear polyester, all in direct defiance of Deuteronomy? (I apologize if you don't :P )

Fair enough. I'm not a 100% strong atheist; I'm a de facto atheist. There is a chance of a God existing, but I'd place it at near enough to nil to make it unimportant. If I experienced a miracle, I could change my mind about the existence of God, but not my contempt and dislike of the Abrahamic Christian God. Well, if gravity didn't exist, then we wouldn't be able to be here to talk about it. Same with light, energy, etc. But you are right, that is not science's function, and it shouldn't be. So. You believe in the literal worldwide flood, creation of woman from a rib, and a Young earth. Literally? I'll just put in one remark here. Genesis has a very detailed and unambiguous genealogy. From this, it can be taken that, according to the bible, the Earth is less than 12,000 years old, and maybe as little as 2,000. Do you honestly believe that? Yes or no. If you say yes, I won't debate with you anymore; nothing can sway this type of believer, with the multitude of evidence there is now to the contrary. :P James 1:17: Our father....who does not change like the shifting shadows. There are more, but I'm lazy :P. I like throwing this one in every so often: Matthew 17:20: And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. I find this especially hard to believe. Does no one have the faith of a mustard seed? Make of it what you will. [hide=Very long list of contradictions]1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31 God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6 2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16 God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48 3. God dwells in light Tim 6:16 God dwells in darkness 1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2 4. God is seen and heard Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/ Ex 24:9-11 God is invisible and cannot be heard John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16 5. God is tired and rests Ex 31:17 God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28 6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21 God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8 7. God knows the hearts of men Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3 God tries men to find out what is in their heart Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12 8. God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26 God is not all powerful Judg 1:19 9. God is unchangeable James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19 God is changeable Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/ Ex 33:1,3,17,14 10. God is just and impartial Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25 God is unjust and partial Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12 11. God is the author of evil Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25 God is not the author of evil 1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13 12. God gives freely to those who ask James 1:5/ Luke 11:10 God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17 13. God is to be found by those who seek him Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17 God is not to be found by those who seek him Prov 1:28 14. God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15 God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33 15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19 God is kind, merciful, and good James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/ 1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8 16. God's anger is fierce and endures long Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4 God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5 17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices ,and holy days Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9 God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices, and holy days. Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12 18. God accepts human sacrifices 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39 God forbids human sacrifice Deut 12:30,31 19. God tempts men Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13 God tempts no man James 1:13 20. God cannot lie Heb 6:18 God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9 21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him Gen 6:5,7 Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him Gen 8:21 22. God's attributes are revealed in his works. Rom 1:20 God's attributes cannot be discovered Job 11:7/ Is 40:28 23. There is but one God Deut 6:4 There is a plurality of gods Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7 Moral Precepts 24. Robbery commanded Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36 Robbery forbidden Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15 25. Lying approved and sanctioned Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22 Lying forbidden Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8 26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned 2 Kings 14:7,3 Hatred to the Edomite forbidden Deut 23:7 27. Killing commanded Ex 32:27 Killing forbidden Ex 20:13 28. The blood-shedder must die Gen 9:5,6 The blood-shedder must not die Gen 4:15 29. The making of images forbidden Ex 20:4 The making of images commanded Ex 25:18,20 30. Slavery and oppression ordained Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8 Slavery and oppression forbidden Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10 31. Improvidence enjoyed Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3 Improvidence condemned 1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22 32. Anger approved Eph 4:26 Anger disapproved Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20 33. Good works to be seen of men Matt 5:16 Good works not to be seen of men Matt 6:1 34. Judging of others forbidden Matt 7:1,2 Judging of others approved 1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12 35. Christ taught non-resistance Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52 Christ taught and practiced physical resistance Luke 22:36/ John 2:15 36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed Luke 12:4 Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed John 7:1 37. Public prayer sanctioned 1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3 Public prayer disapproved Matt 6:5,6 38. Importunity in prayer commended Luke 18:5,7 Importunity in prayer condemned Matt 6:7,8 39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5 The wearing of long hair by men condemned 1 Cor 11:14 40. Circumcision instituted Gen 17:10 Circumcision condemned Gal 5:2 41. The Sabbath instituted Ex 20:8 The Sabbath repudiated Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16 42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day Ex 20:11 The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites out of Egypt Deut 5:15 43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36 Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in the same John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5 44. Baptism commanded Matt 28:19 Baptism not commanded 1 Cor 1:17,14 45. Every kind of animal allowed for food. Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14 Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food. Deut 14:7,8 46. Taking of oaths sanctioned Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13 Taking of oaths forbidden Matt 5:34 47. Marriage approved Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4 Marriage disapproved 1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8 48. Freedom of divorce permitted Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14 Divorce restricted Matt 5:32 49. Adultery forbidden Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4 Adultery allowed Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3 50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17 Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16 51. A man may marry his brother's widow Deut 25:5 A man may not marry his brother's widow Lev 20:21 52. Hatred to kindred enjoined Luke 14:26 Hatred to kindred condemned Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29 53. Intoxicating beverages recommended Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15 Intoxicating beverages discountenanced Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32 54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers and punish evil doers only Rom 13:1-3,6 It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/ Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35 55. Women's rights denied Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6 Women's rights affirmed Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9 56. Obedience to masters enjoined Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18 Obedience due to God only Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10 57. There is an unpardonable sin Mark 3:29 There is not unpardonable sin Acts 13:39 Historical Facts 58. Man was created after the other animals Gen 1:25,26,27 Man was created before the other animals Gen 2:18,19 59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease Gen 8:22 Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6 60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12 Pharaoh hardened his own heart Ex 8:15 61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9 All the horses of Egypt did not die Ex 14:9 62. Moses feared Pharaoh Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19 Moses did not fear Pharaoh Heb 11:27 63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand Num 25:9 There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand 1 Cor 10:8 64. John the Baptist was Elias Matt 11:14 John the Baptist was not Elias John 1:21 65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob Matt 1:16 The father of Mary's husband was Heli Luke 3:23 66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad Gen 11:12 The father of Salah was Cainan Luke 3:35,36 67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:17 There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:2-6 68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity to Christ. Matt 1:17 There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian captivity to Christ Matt 1:12-16 69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23 The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt Luke 2:22, 39 70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness Mark 1:12,13 Christ was not tempted in the wilderness John 2:1,2 71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount Matt 5:1,2 Christ preached his first sermon on the plain Luke 6:17,20 72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee John 1:43/ John 3:22-24 73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff and sandals Mark 6:8,9 Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither staffs nor sandals. Matt 10:9,10 74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus Matt 15:22 It was a Greek woman who besought Him Mark 7:26 75. Two blind men besought Jesus Matt 20:30 Only one blind man besought Him Luke 18:35,38 76. Christ was crucified at the third hour Mark 15:25 Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour John 19:14,15 77. The two thieves reviled Christ. Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32 Only one of the thieves reviled Christ Luke 23:39,40 78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper John 13:27 Satan entered into him before the supper Luke 22:3,4,7 79. Judas committed suicide by hanging Matt 27:5 Judas did not hang himself, but died another way Acts 1:18 80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas Acts 1:18 The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests Matt 27:6,7 81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre John 20:1 There were two women who came to the sepulchre Matt 28:1 82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre Mark 16:1 There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre Luke 24:10 83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre Mark 16:2 It was some time before sunrise when they came. John 20:1 84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and they were standing up. Luke 24:4 There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down. Matt 28:2,5 85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre. John 20:11,12 There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre Mark 16:5 86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave Matt 12:40 Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9> 87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost Acts 1:8,5 Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost John 20:22 88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the resurrection to go into Galilee Matt 28:10 The disciples were commanded immediately after the resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem Luke 24:49 89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at Jerusalem Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19 Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee Matt 28:16,17 90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet Acts 1:9,12 Christ ascended from Bethany Luke 24:50,51 91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood speechless Acts 9:7 Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate Acts 26:14 92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan Gen 12:5 Abraham went not knowing where Heb 11:8 93. Abraham had two sons Gal 4:22 Abraham had but one son Heb 11:17 94. Keturah was Abraham's wife Gen 25:1 Keturah was Abraham's concubine 1 Chron 1:32 95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the interposition of Providence Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12 Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years old without any interposition of providence Gen 25:1,2 96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor Josh 24:32 Abraham bought it of Hamor Acts 7:16 97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed forever Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8 Abraham and his seed never received the promised land Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13 98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan 2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be correct. Original manuscript was incorrect> The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan 1 Chron 20:5 99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram 2 Kings 8:25 Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram 2 Kings 9:29 100. Michal had no child 2 Sam 6:23 Michal had five children Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Matthew 10:34 ... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. - Matthew 26:52 For wrath killeth the foolish man... - Job 5:2 ... let not the sun go down on your wrath. - Ephesians 4:26 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. - John 3:13 ... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. - 2 Kings 2:11 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. - John 5:31 I am one that bear witness of myself... - John 8:18 [Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes] A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children... - Proverbs 13:22 Sell that ye have and give alms... - Luke 12:33 Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches shall be in his house... - Psalms 112:1-3 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24 I and my father are one. - John 10:30 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28 [Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes] Thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side... and slay every man his brother... - Exodus 32:27 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8 The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with: it is iniquity. - Isaiah 3:22 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water. - Leviticus 26:11 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them. - Exodus 25:18 For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works. - Ephesians 2:8-9 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent. - Numbers 23:19 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. - Exodus 32:14 ... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and come forth... - John 5:28-29 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. - Job 7:9 ... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. - Exodus 21:23-25 ... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. - Matthew 5:39 Honor thy father and mother. - Exodus 20:12 If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:26 Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth... - Matthew 6:19 In the house of the righteous is much treasure... - Proverbs 15:6 I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:30 No man hath seen God at any time. - John 1:18 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. - Ezekiel 18:20 ... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. - Exodus 20:5 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. - Proverbs 3:13 For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. - Ecclesiastes 1:18 The Lord is good to all. - Psalm 145:6 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22 [Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17 For all have sinned. - Romans 3:23 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. - Job 1:1 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Kings 8:26 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Chronicles 22:2 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. - Numbers 30:2 But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by earth. - Matthew 5:34-35 ... the earth abideth forever. - Ecclesiastes 1:4 ... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10 ... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever. - Jeremiah 3:12 Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. - Jeremiah 17:4 ... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. - James 1:13 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham. - Genesis 22:1 And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good. - Genesis 1:31 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart - Genesis 6:6 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be there forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually. - II Chronicles 7:16 Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands. - Acts 7:48 [God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto. - I Timothy 6:16 The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. - I Kings 8:12 And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid. - Genesis 3:9,10 Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape. - John 5:37 God is not the author of confusion. - I Corinthians 24:33 Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good? - Lamentations 3:38 Those that seek me early shall find me. - Proverbs 8:17 Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but shall not find me. - Proverbs 1:28 Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw God, and did eat and drink. - Exodus 24: 9-11 Whom no man hath seen nor can see. - I Timothy 6:16 With God all things are possible. - Matthew 29:26 And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. - Judges 1:19[/hide] That's just a sampling, some are weaker than others, and some are stronger. I particularly like the last one :P Going to bed now, night everyone :)

God is Omnimax, according to the bible. He knows everything that will ever happen and has happened, and can do absolutely anything. Despite this, he created humanity, KNOWING that they would be seduced by a serpent. He created the serpent, KNOWING that it would seduce Eve. He created the tree of knowledge, KNOWING that it would be eaten despite his telling man not to(This is still ridiculous, as since humanity at this time has no knowledge of good or evil, and thus doesn't know that eating the apple is bad. "God told them so" is not a good reason). So, I come to the conclusion, that should he exist, he deliberately inflicted these "scars" upon you, on purpose, in full knowledge. That is, of course, if he existed, which based on this is not logical. If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able? Then he is not omnipotent, directly contradicting the bible. If he is able, but not willing? Then he is evil, as he allows evil to happen even though he could easily stop it, as well as CREATING that evil, in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that it would be evil. If he is able and willing? Then evil should not exist. If he isn't able or willing? Then he's not God. ~Epicurus. Just as an aside, there is no mention in the bible whatsoever of the serpent being Satan. Not at all. Also, to that quote: God can prevent evil, but he does not want too, this in no way makes him evil. He decides that until we mess up and learn for ourselves, we'll never get it right. He could save us from everythingand anything, but he wants us to do it ourselves. Just like if your parents make you do something you haven't done, but they coud easily do, they usually (not counting the parents who are just lazy :XD: ) so the child can learn how to do it right, sure they may mess up, but they'll get it right. And naturally be mad at the parents because the parents made them do it, instead of doing it themsleves. But the parents know that when the Child gets out into the real world, they'll have to do things for themselves. God is like the parents, he could get rid of evil, but nothing would be accomplished, people would re create it. Or, God COULD make us all slaves to him, but then we'd HAVE to worship him. In my opinion, I think that he wants people to come to him and worship him. He doesn't want to force people, but I could be wrong. And also, he never created evil, in that sense, evil will always exist unless he makes us mindless robots. Which he won't do. Except this analogy is terrible. The kid messes up but gets another chance and isn't punished drastically. On the other hand, if you die while not believing in the right God or gods, you are punished forever and get no second chance. You can't even tell God that now that you have proof he exists, you'll believe in him. But apparently humans only get one chance to make the right choice. And God already knows which choice we're going to make... You're obviously not getting it. And also, it's your fault if you don't believe in him. It's not that hard, you don't have to be rich or anything, also, if you're an Atheist, how can it hurt? I mean, if there is a God, then you're safe, but if there isn't... Howlin, give me a break. The kid doesn't understand that, the kid only knows human adults are very heavy, even heavier than glass plates. James, you don't get it either. Why do I even bother. :| Sigh. Pascal's Wager. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s ... Criticisms 1)Assumes life with God is better than life without God. 2)Assumes there could only be the Christian God. 3)Assumes God rewards faith in fear, rather than worshiping for his glory. Surely a truly merciful and fair God would reward truthfulness to ones self, rather than doing it out of fear? 4)If you choose the wrong God, you'd probably get screwed over worse than if you didn't believe in any gods. Do you know why] I chose not to believe in God? He is a mass murderer. His holy texts make no sense. There is no evidence to suggest his existence. His followers have caused some of the worse events in human history and continue to impede advancements to this day. There are many other religions, many of which make more sense. Many parts of the Bible are flat out wrong, some of which impeded advancements. More parts of the Bible contradict each other. This is all under God's purview. Since you're obviously going against your bible and claiming we have free will, I'll let it go; I know you'll never agree, the cognitive dissonance must be amazing :P. But since you believe that his holy texts are written by him through individuals, then it falls under his purview that they contradict each other and, frankly, represent him as an amoral, ruthless child, whom I have no desire to worship, should he exist. Let me ask you these two questions. 1) Do you think genocide is wrong? 2)Do you think God is good?

Me, or someone else?

We're currently discussing it right now, a topic was posted fairly recently. Please be patient. Thanks.

I think I had something a lot like this earlier today; make sure you're not using non-latin characters. That was what was happening to me(I had copied/pasted out of a dictionary entry.) (Thanks to Peter for solving it, btw :)

There's something in law, called cruel and unusual punishment. The punishment should fit the crime. Eternal damnation in everlasting hellfire, forever, with no chance of sympathy, is cruel and unusual punishment. You say it's tough love, like a parents? A parent might give a child a detention for a while, but do they ever give them detention for the rest of their lives? Is the punishment for breaking the speed limit life in jail? That's a horribly analogy, as said up there. Don't give me that. You know as well as I do that you believe God created everything, as well as Lucifer the fallen angel. If God didn't create everything, then that directly contradicts the bible. What created evil then? Did it appear out of thin air? That's you creationists main beef with evolution and the Big Bang. Remember. We're not being punished by evil. If you don't believe in hell, there's no reason for not eating shellfish or pork or coveting, unless you believe it's morally wrong. God is the one who is punishing you for doing those things. Maybe he should try a little harder to convince people not to do evil. Your parents teach you the best you can, then send you into the world to make your own choices. They don't send you out, then if you don't clean your room they come and punish you. But they don't lock him up and torture him for eternity. Cruel and unusual punishment. But God made me and everything I am. He knew that I wouldn't help that guy. Skirting around the issue doesn't help your point. He controls everything, and he sentenced that guy to whatever happens to him. He can't go all "ladeda, I only do good things" when he's directly responsible for genocide in the Bible caused directly by his own hand. There are good samaritan laws in many places. One must help someone in trouble if there's no danger to yourself. Most people would agree that if you don't help someone in trouble when there's no risk to you, it's wrong. Why do you not apply the same principle to God? I used to be christian. I changed when I read the bible. I did an extensive journey. I sincerely doubted my belief of magical pixies under my carpet, but then I believed based on no evidence. Why is one god preferable to another? You guys don't believe in pixies. Why believe in one fictional entity over another? In addition: How can you justify obeying some of the Bible but not the rest? How can you pick and choose what to believe in, yet still claim to be a christian? I've never heard a good answer to this question, I'm genuinely curious. To me, I was christian, then I read the bible. Since many parts of it has been completely scientifically debunked(young earth, creation instead of evolution, global flood), I started questioning every part of it, and finally came to the conclusion that the idea of a God has been simply concocted. EDIT: Do you, by any chance, believe that God is good, simply because he's God? I really want an answer to this one too.