Crocefisso

My go to drink is beer, usually something dark like London porter. Then I have another, then another, &c. Usually I never get past the beer.

The hypothetical situation doesn't bear any parallels with what Charlie Hebdo do. Satire to undercut figures of authority is not rare - in Britain James Gillray and George Cruikshank were doing it 2 centuries ago in cartoons, and in France the tradition goes back as far as the bawdy and grotesque Gargantua and Pantagruel books from the mid 16th century. The point is not just to annoy, but to amuse and to subvert. It's not like the magazine drew cartoons of all Muslims or made stereotypical remarks, but instead caricatured people like Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi or Muhammad among a range of authority figures. In France especially, this type of satire is a very old norm (~5 centuries), and the more recent arrival of some Muslims can't be allowed to curtail it - especially when the overwhelming majority of cartoons, in Charlie Hebdo as elsewhere, are not of Muhammad et al. It's not like they're being constantly depicted. @ Alg: given that polygamy is allowed to exist in London though it's illegal, I don't think the West has been that intolerant. As I wrote before, I can count on 1 hand the number of times Muhammad cartoons have been drawn in Europe in the past decade. It's hardly a sustained campaign, nor is the satirical intent just a cover. Satire has a legitimate purpose and Islam is not special or exempt.

Brilliant film. When Barry drives into the wall and says "was that a gesture?" or something similar is definitely the best bit. This is the first topic I started without starting it. TIF is getting pretty meta.

I'm just not sure how that's a good mentality to have in such an interconnected society: it basically comes down to "these are my beliefs about the world and I don't have to even consider that others might feel otherwise". Which might be fine (though still profoundly self-centered) if the world was utterly homogenous, but it just isn't, especially in Europe (as far as I'm aware). It's not that people shouldn't be considerate, simply that a free and open society has to allow people to be freely rude, offensive and even bigoted - although Hebdo is not quite that far. The truth is that Charlie Hebdo is a vehemently left wing satirical paper which mocks all faiths - just Google their cartoons of Jews - and even the values of France and the wider western world. I do agree that people have to be allowed some respect of their own culture etc, but consider this: in Europe as in the west nobody denies Muslims basic rights, they can practice their faith and build Saudi funded mosques to their heart's delight, but sometimes a cartoon is drawn - and I can count on one hand the number in the past decade - of the Prophet Muhammad. In China this year, the Muslim Uighur minority were often force fed if they tried to observe Ramadan. In one of the two scenarios, a terrorist attack is far more justifiable than the other. On a side note, the guy who actually drew the Muhammad cartoons for Charlie Hebdo wasn't killed. He overslept and never even made it to their offices.

This is only how it works on forums. In life, the right to offend is not something which can be legislated against. As the late editor of Charlie Hebdo put it in a few years ago, "Muhammad isn't sacred to me." Unless you are Muslim, then you can say what you like about him. @ obfuscator: the use of "love" was rhetorical. If it pleases you, shootings are not uncommon in the United States.

The limits to free speech are legally demarcated - libel, incitement etc - and cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad are not covered by any of these. Hell, in 1592 an English playwright called Marlowe wrote a great play called Doctor Faustus where the Pope was showed as an ignoramus and beaten up by the main character whilst invisible. Satire of religious authority figures is not new in Europe, and if people don't like it, they should go back to the Middle East and live in their holy squalor. Some of this is right, some is wrong. France is indeed the worst western European country at the moment for racial harmony (eastern countries are often more racist), but this is because the extreme right is already big there - the FN has been a major contender for Presidential office since Marine Le Pen took charge in, I think, 2011. But in racial terms, Europe is much better than the USA, for example, which every time I've been in the last few yrs seems very ghettoized between whites, blacks and 'Latinos', which is why these things perhaps seem more shocking to us Europeans. France is more like America because, like America, the French like to force integration and French values on immigrants, while countries like Britain and Germany are less proud and consequently more lax. There is racial tension in Europe, but it's nowhere near the level of America, as demonstrated with the whole Eric Garner affair last year - which is partly why it is so shocking over here.

Mod Note: Posts split from Today thread. ~@Randox I know not of what you speak...if it mattered I'd have heard of it...maybe? It seems we grew out of our topic [bleep] phase. It used to be like a competition Islamist extremists attacked a satirical newspaper's offices in Paris (name of paper is Charlie Hebdo, known in Europe for naming the Prophet Muhammad their editor in chief in 2011) armed with submachines and maybe an RPG and killed 10 staff, including the editor in chief, a deputy editor, and several v famous cartoonists - cartoons are a big deal in France - including one very distinguished 80 year old. They also shot 2 police, one of whom they summarily executed - and it has been caught on camera. Both men (maybe 3) are still at large. Charlie Hebdo is going to published its next issue as normal, but the print run will go up from c. 50,000 average to 1,000,000 copies. So yes, it's a big deal, a) because shootings like these are far less common in Europe than America's love for high school massacres, and b) because it was a targeted assassination and these guys knew how to use their weapons. You don't need to know all the details, but it's rather ignorant not to know that cartoonists in Paris have been assassinated for jokes about the Prophet Muhammad.

You know OT is dead or indifferent when the Charlie Hebdo massacres don't get a thread.

When I saw it was called The Hobbit: Battle of the 5 Armies I didn't know it was more or less only that battle.

^ Probably should have posted the entire poem, but it's quite a few stanzas long. Basically, the whole thing uses mathematical terminology in a way which imitates and almost sounds like a traditional love poem, but the terms aren't used correctly, and the love part also fails. The poem - like the whole book - is v tongue in cheek.

Thanks, I didn't know Saarenmann valssi was Finnish. I guessed because Ots was Estonian he was singing in his own language, although the album is called Suosikkia or something like that, so I should have guessed. Also, love the language tree, but couldn't help but wonder why Basque isn't there (I know you didn't make it but I'm wondering aloud). I know it's not formally Indo-European, but given that the hypothesis is that it existed in S France / N Spain before any of the Indo-European languages, it's surely "European" enough. Although I suppose nobody really knows the former extent of its usage, which would make putting it on the map futile. Edit: on the topic of Estonia being quite rich in former times, wasn't that because the wealthy nobility in the general Baltic area was German speaking and they ran away during or were impoverished by the whole Russian revolution debacle?

Slightly different language? How different must languages be to be "slightly" different? Estonian and Chinese are more closely related than Estonian and Latvian/Lithuanian. Hell, English and Russian are more closely related than Estonian and Latvian/Lithuanian. Basically the same country? What the bloody heck are you talking about? It's the same as calling UK and Germany basically the same country. Yeah, we are all part of the European Union and well, Latvia borders us, but that is pretty much where the similarities end. Culture, language, economy, ethnic composition, genetic composition, everything practically is different. In any measureable way we are more like Finland. We share the language, pre-crusader culture, we are closest economical partners, and as I said, pre WWII we were even richer then they were. Last 10 years or so talks have been up about building a tunnel or bridge over the Gulf of Finland. If it makes you feel any better, fair Estonian, I (a Brit of Italian descent) already knew this, and I think it's only in America that the idea of the Baltic states as a homogeneous entity exists. In fact I spent a long part of the summer listening to songs sung by Georg Ots (e.g. Saarenmaan valssi) after hearing one of his other songs (I think it was Mustanmeren valssi) in an Aki Kaurismäki film. And of course at the end of Don't Forget Your Scarf, Tatjana, the destination of the characters' escape is Tallinn. Am I also right in thinking that Hungarian is much more like Estonian and Finnish than anything else, at least linguistically?

Currently reading The Cyberiad, a sci-fi/comedy short story collection, and have discovered a new respect for sci-fi. As an example of the book's genius, it includes a machine which writes poetry, including a love poem expressed in the language of pure mathematics: Cancel me not - for then what shall remain? Abscissas, some mantissas, modules, modes, A root or two, a torus and a node: The inverse of my verse, a null domain. ^ just one stanza from the poem.

Locke - a short, low budget British film about a man driving to a hospital while he phones people and his life breaks down. Simple premise but v well done.

I'm still only 1/3 the way through the far shorter Norwegian Wood, and I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by Murakami. I read it right after finishing Lermontov's A Hero of our Time, which pretty much established the psychological formula for later Russian novelists like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. By comparion, Murakami's bland characters appear one dimensional; I'm also struggling with the idea that Naoko's psychological breakdown stems from her inability to get wet for her late boyfriend Kizuki. Maybe she'll make sense later on in the book.

Is it that big?

This morning I started reading Norwegian Wood. I want to see whether all the fuss about Murakami is justified.

The last movie I saw was a French/Portuguese film called I'm Going Home. It's a solid drama about an actor who is forced to accept that he's aging (8/10, for reference). It's also remarkable because the director, Manoel de Oliveira, directed it when he was 93. He's now 105 and still making movies - and good ones at that. A notable example of life not imitating art.

Just letting all you anime fans know about a brilliant Kickstarter a games journalist here in the UK has launched - a book called The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers. Probably of interest to some of you. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1748556728/the-untold-history-of-japanese-game-developers

People partying because Thatcher's dead, especially those with no recollection of her time in office, are absolutely loathsome. I've tried not to post about this in case in starts a row, but truly I cannot stand that people would dance on anybody's grave - I imagine I will be able to refrain from doing so when Blair and Brown die - especially those who do it with no personal grudge (although perhaps the embittered old grudge bearers are worse).

I can't be bothered to read all these pages, but for someone like me who is more concerned with playing original and fresh new games than x or y hardware improvement or any other tedious side-feature (sharing is inane, but innocuous), a columnist in this month's issue of gamesTM aptly summarised the PS4 launch lineup:

^So, you're an Amber Rose fan then?

80 mile clubrun with the brisk group today (cycling, for those that can't tell). There was a massive pileup on a country lane because the idiot leading was too busy talking about bikes to focus on riding his.

Just finished Snow Country by Kawabata, will probably move on to Tanpinar's A Mind at Peace when I have some free time.