Duff

A very good clarification. Other Christian denominations don't believe in purgatory. My apologies. Though, I feel, since heaven is a place for perfect people, we must go somewhere beforehand to become perfect, as we are not perfect when we die.

Who can say no to a question like that? But salvation comes to whoever accepts the Christian Lord as their Saviour regardless of what life they lead before that. I could live a sinful life until my end of days and repent with sincerity and a humble heart and (possibly) be Saved. And while the true test for the spirit of a man or woman would be to love a child gotten on them by rape or otherwise would be to love them unconditionally, we aren't perfect. According to Christianity, the only perfect person who walked among us was the Christ who even then gave himself to save us. That's the point. No one can. This is why the Church feels it should be doing what it's doing. I don't even want to bring it up, but I have to: the Church believes in purgatory. If the Church is successful in helping the people of the earth lead better lives, they'll spend less time in purgatory, therefore having an easier road to heaven. I know that many people don't believe in purgatory. I'm not proving it exists. I'm merely clarifying to Kimberly why, even if God has incomprehensible mercy, urging us to live by the Church's ways is still worth it.

I'm pretty sure my idea of what the church wants and your idea of what it wants are still two very different things. I'm sure that's not what you were getting at. But okay. Time to stop going of topic, i think. I know what the Church wants. I've said it. If whatever you think the Church wants is different than what I know the Church wants, then your idea of what the Church wants is incorrect. The Church wants every person to make it to heaven (aka. eternal happiness). This is because it believes a place such as heaven exists. Just as you admitted to, an eternity of happiness (if it were to exist) is worth the bit of struggle during our earthly years. By admitting to that, you should realize that is why the Church is so set on getting people to live lifestyles as the Church teaches. Even if these lifestyles are a bit difficult, at least they'd be helping you gain eternal happiness. If you think the Church wants to oppress it's people, force people to follow its rules, etc, then you're wrong. EDIT: It's plainly written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I've read it. I can make the above claims.

The humans of the Church can be flawed (why else did the Crusades and the Inquisition happen?). And I highly doubt that 1 in every 20 people who make up the Magisterium (that is, the teaching authority) are pedophiles. Actually, I'd doubt if any of them were. They're the ones who agree on Church teaching, who decide what it is. Because various priests around the world have made mistakes does not mean the current doctrine is of bad character.

Now that you've answered my question, you have an idea of what the Church feels. And that was what I was getting at.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal. In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature. Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you. If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing. And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh? I'd label it how ever i want to :\ If you're not happy with it you're welcome to take it somewhere else. And now you're just being ignorant because you fully know that faulty birth control is not the only reason women accidentally get pregnant. Also, in my eyes there is no eternal happiness because like i said, i don't believe in fairy tales. So why should i face any sort of unwanted challenge? Thanks Noxx. I'm sure you understand. And I do know fully well that faulty birth control is not the only reason women get pregnant. Would you like me to write a few essays that cover every example of a complaint a person would have against the Church? I didn't ask if there was eternal happiness. I asked, if there was, would it be worth a challenging life to achieve it. It's a simple question. I'm asking you to put yourself in the Church's shoes. If you did believe in eternal happiness, would you not want to help everyone try and achieve it, even if it means living a challenging life here on earth.

Once again, I know this. I know that people don't want to have the Magisterium (lovely ad hominem, by the way) tell them what to do. That is not what we are arguing (at least, I am not). The point is, the Church does believe in an afterlife, and therefore acts accordingly. You cannot say that their intentions are bad. You don't have to believe it, but it (the Church) is in existence and will continue to urge people to live lives that follow Church teaching. They're trying to help people live better lives. That's why they're 'telling' people what to do. You don't like it? Too bad. They have every right to want happiness for everyone.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal. In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature. Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you. If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing. And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh?

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

I guess where we're not connecting is the fact that you seem to think I don't know that people don't believe the Church should be telling us what to do. But I do. The Church believes it should, and so it does. Whether you believe in heaven or not, it is going to try and get you there. No amount of telling it to [bleep] off will make it do otherwise. I don't see how the Church is thinking of themselves. Since heaven is a place of ultimate happiness, and everyone (yes, everyone) wants to be happy; what makes them think you'd want otherwise? The Church wants everyone to be ultimately and eternally happy. Only someone with an psychological order would not want to be happy. EDIT: @Noxxx: The Church believes it has knowledge of what's in the best interests of everyone through Tradition and Scripture. I obviously know you don't believe that. But just because you don't believe they don't have the authority doesn't change the fact that they think they do. And quit being disrespectful and calling my religion a bunch of fairy tales and ghosts.

But i do not. And neither do a lot of other people. The Church should concern themselves with their own matters and leave the legal matters to the Law. The law is doing what they believe is in the best interest for ALL the people. Giving people the option is what is best, not trying to force them in one direction. I don't want some cult meddling with my life and what should be my choices just like you don't want heathens meddling with yours. So it's intentions would be in the wrong place because it would force people to break away from what THEY really want ad would be forced to do what "the Church" sees right. The Church's 'own matter' is the salvation of all people. The Church is doing what it believes in in the best interest for ALL the people. Giving people the option is not what is best. Would a parent want to give their son the option of burning his hand on an open stove? People just don't want to live a life according to the Church because they can't do whatever they want in such a life. What a person 'wants' is not always what is best for them, Noxxx. The Church wants the best for everyone, and there is no harm in that intention.

Lol. The Church wouldn't be an institution that holds solidarity as one of it's themes of social justice if it just let people commit, in it's eyes, morally wrong actions. Granted, the majority of people don't agree with the Church on matters of what is morally right and wrong. I get that. However, the Church believes in heaven, and it wants all people to have as best a shot as possible to get there. It's not like its intentions are in the wrong place. And that's all I'll say.

They don't force people to believe that abortion is wrong. And they have every right to vote against abortion. Since when has that ever been a problem. The government allows us to vote against it. There is nothing wrong with taking this option. So technically, the government is giving us the option to 'force' our beliefs on people. Get angry at them if your angry about feeling 'forced' to believe something.

So instead, we deprive them of life, possibly the greatest gift given to anyone. And though I agree that everyone is going to have differing opinions, the Catholic Church's goal is for all people to obtain salvation. It is it's responsibility to tell people when they are in error. They don't force this belief on people. They don't force anything on anyone.

By "Chuch," I mean the Catholic Church. And as a note, the Catholic Church does not damn unbaptized, unborn children to hell. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if these unborn children die or not. Every life is precious. You act like it's the childs fault that it's causing 'problems' for the mother and father. It is in no way the child's fault. It's completely the parents fault, and all the blame is on them for being irresponsible. Don't even begin to accuse an innocent child for being at fault for something that was entirely the parents' faults.

>implying other generations had so much more self control The US population growth rate is actually decreasing, believe it or not (source: census.gov). And look at this: (source: cdc.gov via wikipedia) The blue is the baby boomers. If anything, we have more self control than they. That's entirely besides the point. We need to get some self control instead of giving people a morally wrong (in my opinion, and the Church's) way out of having a child. Technically, that would not be murder (assuming it is allowed by law). Is it wrong (IMO)? Yes. Is it ridiculous and backwards (IMO)? Yes. I am simply saying that in the US, at current time, abortion is not murder because it does not fit the definition of murder. Murder is also defined as the killing of a human being specifically, and since nobody can rightfully make a blanket statement whether fetuses are human beings or not, nobody can rightfully make a blanket statement that abortion is murder. Simply because we cannot come to an agreement that a fetus is a human being or not doesn't mean it's automatically not a human being, and therefore not capable of being murdered. Plus, we're focusing on stupid labels/English words, when the act itself, the killing of another person, is the same in both instances, regardless of if you're in the United States or the Middle East. Deities don't count for anything here. We don't know that any deity exists and so any "rights" or "dominion" or whatever you want to call it "given" by one is not an acceptable reason for anything (not to mention that because one of the basic human rights agreed upon by all but 3 nations is freedom of religion, so the laws/rules given by one deity may not govern universal law). And why are we allowed to kill people under so many circumstances? I am not making any assumptions as to whether a fetus can be considered living. I am asking why anyone has the right to define it. In what circumstance are we told to kill people when they aren't threatening our own life? This is an honest question. The Church doesn't support the killing of anyone. It would rather have no one die, but when the circumstance involves one's own life, they make an exception. This doesn't mean they support killing.

Yes, exactly. This is why we also "need" abortion. Maybe they were drunk, or stupid, or tried to pull out, or the condom broke, or any combination of those. Abortions have saved countless numbers of children from having to endure terrible quality lives. There are people who, if abortion was illegal, simply have their baby in secret and kill it. What if having a baby endangers the safety of the mother? What if the baby is going to be born deformed and will have extremely poor quality of life? What if the mother is a prostitute addicted to cocaine and the father is a random guy who hired said prostitute? What if the mother/father have little money, no way to have the child cared for, and no jobs? First off, I was thinking more along the lines of 'stop having sex if you aren't planning on having a baby.' If our generation had some self control, we wouldn't be in this problem, tbh. And to the rest of that paragraph, I'm sure you could find succinct answers somewhere else. Look into it yourself. I know the Catholic Church has answers for those questions. How can you even say that when laws are not universal? Are you meaning to tell me that because the law doesn't find raping and killing a woman who has had an affair somewhere in the Middle East murder, that it isn't? You are basically saying that the laws determine our morals, and that is far from the truth. God gave us dominion over the rest of the earth. That's why we're allowed to kill the things you said (except for people). There are exceptions though, because caring for God's creation is one of the key themes of Catholic Social Justice. And it sounds like you're making your own assumption as to whether the fetus can be considered living or not. Who are you to make this call?

Because our generation needs sex and without birth control or condoms, there would be so many irresponsible parents out there unable to raise children. Of course people would support being able to have sex all the time without taking on the responsibility of what it is meant to do. Sex is sacred, and the Church is against separating the pleasure of sex from sex's original purpose: to create life. Strictly speaking, there is no difference between birth-control, condoms, or abortion in my view. I don't believe in any of them, as does the Church.

You know that many people don't agree that something has to take it's first breath to be considered living. Personally, I find that requirement completely ridiculous.

Me too! D: I'm currently working on a poem analysis of William Wordsworth's short poem I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud. I think I've actually come up with some good ideas for it, so now it's all about finding the right rhetorical features and passages and writing them down right. Also have to write up a prelab for Chemistry. I hate how they make you rewrite the whole procedure. My hand feels like it's going to fall off after every lab.

Geezums... The doctor was really cool (he worked in Philadelphia before, so he's seen much worse than an ingrown toe: gunshot wounds, etc). He just decided that it'd be better to rip out my whole toenail instead of just the side. So, now I am nail-less, and a complete gimp. I'll have to leave 25 minutes early to get to my classes. D: But, it'll definitely be worth it. @Kimberly: I had to pay $100 for the visit. But I misunderstood one of their questions (who is supporting you, i.e. usually parents) and so I answered my dad's gross income without taxes (my mom is unemployed). What I should've said, since it was the complete truth, was that I'm am completely on college scholarships and loans. My parents aren't helping me pay for it at all, so technically I have no one financially supporting me right now. That would've lowered the price to $50. I think my mom is going to be pissed and fix it, though. The anesthesia is wearing off now, and it stings. :c

New Blink-182 album Neighborhoods came out a day or so ago. So I'll be spending the next few weeks getting to know that album real well. ;-) Tom still has too much Angels & Airwaves in him. I wanna hear the punk come out more. It's why I liked Blink-182 in the first place.

Well, first, it was difficult finding a place that would do the operation for someone like me (poor college student, no income, no insurance). And then I have to find time and someone to drive me down there. And this has all happened within the last few weeks. I've been just too busy with school. I finally decided not to put it off anymore. :P Plus, I'm starting to get a limp, and I'm afraid my whole toe will become infected (it partially is); don't want to lose the whole thing. ;-)

I'm actually going to an Urgent Care Center today to get my ingrown toe fixed... after a month and a half of having it hurt like crazy. Bleh, I don't like needles.

That's Protestantism. I'm Catholic. :s The Catholic Church is against abortion because it kills a human child, not because they want to force the woman to bear a child against her will. It's a matter of not murdering vs murdering for the Church. Not forcing a woman to bear a child vs letting her off easy. The Church is against birth control because it separates the pleasure of sex from the very purpose of sex. The Church sees sex as extremely sacred, since it involves creating a new being. When one decides to take this sacred act and prevent it from fulfilling its purpose (naming the creation of a life), of course the Church is going to be against that.