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Because you know calling a fairy unicorn the d word makes for a huge flamewar? your are such a dumb person for not knowing that. I totally recognize that :) But at some point I feel like im losing my sanity if I let idiocy slide... I feel like I've made an effort to objectively state my reasoning. People just don't listen/ totally miss the point of what I'm saying. Instead of calling the person dumb you should just ignore it and move on ;) What do you reach by saying he is dumb? It certainly won't let him understand what you say better, I think it would even makes it worse ;)

To add an other point. The thing I see as the biggest problem are the people insulting the topic starter or other users, or the topic starter insulting the people who give advice. It may not seem to be a big deal to you to call someone an idiot, noob or dumb (and those examples are even the less offensive examples I have seen), but to some people it hurts. I have seen countless people using bad words on the internet (more then IRL) and I am not really offended by it, but I don't like it either, if someone on my friendlist or at a chatprogram would use those words against me (not noob, but saying I am an idiot or worse) I would block them if they do it in a disrespectful way. Everytime I see someone using bad words in runescape (for example the words "[bleep] off" and all the words with cancer in it (they are much used in the netherlands)) I report them (hate me for it but I don't want to read those things, I don't use them because they could hurt people and I don't like other people using them in public. Then you should consider that I know girls (no offence) that cried because someone or a group of people said swear words about their boyfriend. Those people exist and could also be playing runescape and being on a forum, if they cry because someone said something offensive about their boyfriend they would also be hurt if someone used swear words to them. It is not nice to say someone is dumb or an idiot because they don't like your way of doing this (may it be efficient or not). It is also not nice to show disrespect to the people helping you, I believe this is the main reason of the people that think efficiently is the best way (no offence), because they give some nice advice and they get trolled by "omg you efficient clown" or something like that. But this means you should also not flame the persons that are trying to help but do not have enough knowledge of the subject, you can tell them in a nice way that that way is not the best way, but do not take over the topic with it, if you want something to say but it takes over the topic edit your last post and say it there. It doesn't matter if the wrong poster doesn't see it, the topic starter does. To summ everyting up: I think there are a few kind of trolls: People being rude to the topic starter and other posters that their way is dumb/inefficient. People who disrespect the people helping you or someone else and are going to flame him or going to take over the topic to prove the other wrong (then both are at fault). It all comes down that you could say the same things in a nice way without flaming the person or taking over the thread, yes people do get hurt by insulting them on a forum.

Can you name something that isn't fun? For a select amount of time, anything can be fun, so the advice for fun would be: do anything. Doesn't sound helpful to me. ... and yet, time and again, we see that exact same advice being given in H&A ... :unsure: The better name for the "fun" you mean would be "suggestions other then the most efficient".

No, just no. I think the topic starter should just explain what kind of advice he/she wants. If he doesn't explain enough all kind of advices are good to give. It make no sense to lock topics because the TS didn't put one of those two words in it, you would also scare people that have just joined.

I think the problem is the people that are flaming/spamming other people. And the TS being rude to the people that gave advice that he didn't wanted.

The same applies here, so that's enough, thanks ;) If I may add, please keep the posts about how you feel Danq (or any other mod) is doing his job as mod in this thread http://forum.tip.it/topic/291488-tif-is-bit-overermoderrated/ or do it with PM's. I find reading personal attacks (I think they are, you may not think so) not fun, at least not in the topic were they are not needed. Also I see people getting offended by other people using the word efficient in an other way then they use it and think it should be used, it is just a word.

However that doesn't mean that this should not be looked at ;)

It all depends on the question, if the question isn't specific it should be asked what he exactly wants. If I say I want to train mining in a different way then mining granite and want to store my ores and don't care about money and xp because I would be smithing armour/ammo from it and I want some fun ways/places to achieve that, then saying: Mine granite and buy your ores is trolling. In your case, the answers are all good (except for the player B saying that armoured zombies aren't fun without explaining why), but the question wasn't specific enough, he should state what he thinks is fun (like I want to collect good bones for prayer, I want to get much money out of it, I want to train slayer at the same time, I want the best xp rates possible etc.). I agree with your sentence "f it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently." But that doesn't say that you should not give people the advice they want just because there are more efficient ways then the TS wants. @ tieszen I never asked for the best, same as other people do, but some people just can't understand that playing inefficient is fun too, the same as some players can't understand that efficient is fun too. Also "the best" is not directly "the best efficiently method" it could be "the best money making method" "the best afk-able method" or even "the best fun method" that is why you should not only say "I want the best method" but say something like "I want the best xp rates" or "I want the best money maker" of course you cannot say "I want the best fun method" so if you want fun ways you should explain what you think is fun or give examples of other methods you think are fun so people can give you something that works the same way as the other method. To your mining scenario I would respond "Go find a spot that you think is fun and train there, no one can tell you what you will find enjoyable". Then I would ask if he wanted a list of places he could easily mine and bank, and why he is intent on smelting/smithing his own ore that he mined. If he wants the list and is doing it for his own personal satisfaction (perhaps he's a DIY account) then I give him the list and pro's and cons of each spot (distance from the bank etc) but I can't tell him if they will be fun or not. If he wants the list and is doing it because he thinks its the best way to train smithing I will politely tell him that he could save lots of time by superheating or smelting (or both if he doesn't mind it) gold ore with gauntlets for faster smithing exp and bonus magic exp. There is no best fun method so that point is moot. And best efficient method takes into consideration all of those things you mentioned (gp/hr exp/hr afkability etc). The goal is to be efficient in what you want. Guaranteed you've never found a money making thread asking for combat ways to make money and heard "Go to AZ's cuz they're better melee exp/hr". edit For the last time We are not assuming that others will enjoy putting our advice into practice. We aren't assuming that they won't enjoy it either. We're assuming that when they ask for the best way of doing something that the response should be based on providing the individual with the highest cost benefit ratio with relation to what their goal is. If they want fun we can not help them outside of providing a list of all possible options. Unfortunately when said list is presented often times the poster then asks which is better...which leads us back to asking what their goal is aside from fun. I find that a perfect answer, you gave the person many options, answered the question that he had and also gave him information to inform him about better ways, so he can choose a fun and/or efficient way for himself. Now if all the persons acted like you said this thread would not be here. It would already change if most of the people change their words in a way that they are nice instead of ranting the player but basically saying the same thing.

It all depends on the question, if the question isn't specific it should be asked what he exactly wants. If I say I want to train mining in a different way then mining granite and want to store my ores and don't care about money and xp because I would be smithing armour/ammo from it and I want some fun ways/places to achieve that, then saying: Mine granite and buy your ores is trolling. In your case, the answers are all good (except for the player B saying that armoured zombies aren't fun without explaining why), but the question wasn't specific enough, he should state what he thinks is fun (like I want to collect good bones for prayer, I want to get much money out of it, I want to train slayer at the same time, I want the best xp rates possible etc.). I agree with your sentence "f it's not right for an efficient player to always assume that other players have fun playing efficiently, it's just as wrong for someone to assume that someone doesn't have fun playing efficiently." But that doesn't say that you should not give people the advice they want just because there are more efficient ways then the TS wants. @ tieszen I never asked for the best, same as other people do, but some people just can't understand that playing inefficient is fun too, the same as some players can't understand that efficient is fun too. Also "the best" is not directly "the best efficiently method" it could be "the best money making method" "the best afk-able method" or even "the best fun method" that is why you should not only say "I want the best method" but say something like "I want the best xp rates" or "I want the best money maker" of course you cannot say "I want the best fun method" so if you want fun ways you should explain what you think is fun or give examples of other methods you think are fun so people can give you something that works the same way as the other method.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion. Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion? Best known mathematically, but that isn't how some people have fun. If you're idea of fun is to get the most exp/gp/points/rank out of your time, so be it. Some of us don't think of it like that. But that's not the point. The point is that you can't measure how an individual has fun, and you can't really tell someone what will be fun for them, and what will not. It's quite hypocritical. For instance, look at fast dungeoneering versus slow dungeoneering. Undoubtedly there will be people who say that slow dungeoneering is less stressful, more fun, etc. What they're missing is that there are people who feel exactly the opposite. Fast dungeoneering is less frustrating, less repetitive, etc. Fun isn't quantifiable. Something that's fun for you isn't necessarily fun to someone else. Therefore, advice should never be given in terms of what method is more fun. Advice should always be towards achieving the goals presented, and having fun isn't really a goal anyone can help you with. I have seen many threads where players asked other ways (fun ways) then the efficient way to train a skill . Why should advice not been given in terms of fun if the player asks for it?

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion. Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion? If I understand you correctly, you say that if you do research you know which way is best for you? If that is what you mean then I agree with you, although there are some people who rather not research anything and just want to play, but in most cases it should be what you said. However doing research is not always doing research of getting the best xp/money (being efficient like the people use the word), I have done very much resource to found ways which I found fun other then the "best" methods which I did not like. Sorry if I misunderstood your point, my mother language is not english ;)

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion.

You have a strange take on efficiency... people like being efficient within the game, obviously, we don't discuss irl efficiency here (which incidentally includes killing the elderly, which is a BAD idea). Since the game is a simple mathematical system, you can figure out what is best. Where best is defined as fastest. Efficiency in Monopoly has nothing to do with speed. As there is no way for your competition to pass you if you do not take an action. Efficiency in Monopoly probably has something to do with opportunity cost however. Since we have rules in real life (not killing the elderly) same as rules in runescape (not RWT and botting) that is not really true. In my oppinion the word "best" is what you want the most, is that being efficient? I think in most cases it is having fun, in some cases however those two are combined because people have fun while being efficient. At the monopoly part, it was maybe a bad example, but you can look it at three ways (maybe even more): cost, the time to complete the game and fun (same as runescape: money, xp, and fun) these three things are used all together most of the times. I chose for "the time to complete the game" because it goes together with "being most efficient in runescape by getting xp in the shortest time". It is all based on your oppinion, but the ideal thing in my opinion is to have fun, because you do not achieve something special from not having fun at doing a game. You can ask the question: Why are you playing it if you don't have fun while doing it?. If you ask the question: Why are you playing when you are not being as efficient as possible? That sounds strange doesn't it? But it is what most people are saying here.

Just saying, all that "efficiently" isn't efficient at all. We are talking about Runescape, a game. What do you play a game for? FUN (or a feeling of accomplishment), so from a real life perspective, efficiently (the way you people use the word) in runescape is only efficient if you have more fun with it. To take an example: Lets say I invite some friends to do monopoly, the most efficient way would be to not talk and move as fast as possible to finish the game as quick as possible. Would you have more fun in that? In most cases not. thus you have done it for nothing, being not efficient because it didn't reach the goal you wanted to achieve with it, being FUN.

Oh, sorry I thought it said it somewhere. That's 200 noted Battlestaves!! Worth 1.7M!! One of the new very rare drops from Green Dragons that some dumb dumb left on the ground! most likely a bot that left them on the ground.

That was a long read. To bring up an old discussion: I think it is not trolling to post efficient methods. But if the TS specific said that he doesn't want those efficient ways and just want some advice about the way he wants to play, it is trolling to say something like: do it this way, it is more efficient. However if you say it in a nice way and give more information about why you think so. It isn't trolling. But if the TS then says he doesn't want that kind of information, you should not repeat it and start arguing with him/her. The last thing is what irritates me the most.

no, why would someone that has more money get those benefits? Maybe for bank space (and then one time buy so not monthly), so if you would pay 5,00-10,00 you would get 50 bank spaces. Why am I allowing bank spaces but not items? Because having more bank space doesn't get you the advantage over other people, you can just store more stuff.

Yay! Scimitair stance updates. Oh wait, that wasn't the main update?

Is this normal for 6 days? 10 on maples, 5 on herbs. But... 1 spirit seed, 2 magic seeds, 1 palm seed, 1 yew seed. Spend 450k to get 1,6mil... tripled it. (not that I am going to sell anything except for 450k worth of maples, I did it for the free resources) (the herb seed was avantoe, so nothing special there :P)

some people on RSOF are complaining about their bounds being lost, they were dungeoneering while the crash happened. Not sure if it is true, because it is RSOF.

you know there are only 3k players online at this time?

runescape forums online again edit: it was for a few seconds...

membership rollback please

Most likely jmods or something else from jagex hq

they should really say something about the outage on the front page - the rs facebook page is not a replacement..... I think they can't update the frontpage, as the forums are offline also.