mad4u689

Ahh, finally, a respectful meat-eater :D Thank you for actually considering the topic, concluding that veal is too much (what they do to veal is pretty sickening and torturous, more so than for other meat :x), and preferring free-range chickens to regular factory farmed chickens. I respect your decision to continue eating meat, and wish you lots of yumminess :D WeeBoab, it's kind of paining me to read what you write, on the other hand. I think you would really benefit from reading the FAQ I posted on page 10 :D

Which is exactly why vegetarians are trying to convince other people. Can we not do as we wish for once without being bombarded by other people's views? Ever stop to think your views are not mine, thus they should stay away from me? Hmm. You clicked on the topic, dearie :D And also, the vegetarian movement has grown quite large, especially in America and urban areas. In fact, I would say that approximately half of my good friends are vegetarian. At my college campus, there is even a very popular Vegan Cafe to cater toward vegans - and it's popular among vegans and vegetarians and meat-eaters alike, because it's just good food :D. Nothing ever changes in a day, but it's a growing movement, and it's certainly making a difference. In addition, it has led to a greater availability of free-range and organic products to cater towards individuals who don't support factory farms, but don't mind the idea of meat in general - and greater restrictions about who can claim they are "free-range" or "organic." Ten years ago, you would NOT find the same product options in supermarkets. So don't even try to tell me it's not making a difference :D

Good (and well-articulated) points, Astra :D That's not true. It's supply and demand, like in every other industry. How do boycotts work? Each individual person is making a difference. By not buying a meat product in one specific instance, in the future, projections for how many people will buy that meat product will be x - 1. That - 1 is you. Once that projection for one less consumer is made (the demand is less), then they will prepare one less meat product next time, because they know it will go unsold. That's one less animal killed (assuming one animal -> one meat product). Of course, in practice it's a bit more complicated, but the general idea holds. :D

That's the best thing I've ever seen. :P Sure, if you pretend all the meat substitutes (alternatives) don't exist, then you need meat. Ha :D

I think you should be more careful about wording this as your opinion. In many people's opinion, including my own, humanity is something that only applies to humans. It is not objective truth that humanity is a vague concept - I think it's very black and white. Did you read the rest of my post? o.O I did. I don't believe you offered me any conclusive evidence that humanity can't be black and white between human and not human. A chimp is intelligent, but its still an imp. Are you going to tell me that the line between being one species and another is too blurry to say that someone who is human might not be? Ah, I guess you have a point. We do tend to be able to conclusively tell the species of an individual animal. :P However, the word humanity has many connotations and etymologies that aren't scientific in origin. According to dictionary.com, the third definition is "the quality of being humane; kindness; benevolence." If you look up humane, the first definition you get is "characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, esp. for the suffering or distressed". So yes, I guess you're right. I took my argument a bit far. But I do think it's fair to call immoral actions against animals "inhumane" according to the dictionary.com definition :D And, I still do think what we consider "intelligent" in a human sort of way is very ambiguous. :D

I think you should be more careful about wording this as your opinion. In many people's opinion, including my own, humanity is something that only applies to humans. It is not objective truth that humanity is a vague concept - I think it's very black and white. Did you read the rest of my post? o.O

I'll say it again - asking anyone over the internet especially on one of these forums is pretty stupid. Why not like ask your friends? :? lol. Heh, don't worry, I have healthy friend relationships and have asked their advice. I'm mostly just curious what advice deloria has to give, to see how good I think he is, and if he'd make a decent relationship counselor ;) I'm not in drastic need of advice personally :D

thats the problem here, really. people give humainty to something that isnt human (cows, chickens etc). The dont feel the way we do, thier brains arent as evolved and as a reult they dont question thier existance, why they are being eaten, why people are so cruel, etc... Humanity, as a term, tries to make something black and white that isn't. Some organisms are closer to humanity than others. If a chimpanzee can use sign language to effectively communicate with humans, haven't they reached some higher level than a plant? What about all animals that can feel pain? What about all animals (there aren't that many, and they're pretty much all primates) that can recognize themselves in a mirror (showing that they do, indeed, have some basic concept of self)? So the word inhumanity is used a bit loosely, because the concept that it signifies isn't as black and white as it could be. I mean, an adult chimpanzee is objectively NOT as intelligent as an adult human. However, an adult chimpanzee is objectively MORE intelligent than a two-year-old human. Should chimpanzees be afforded the same rights as two-year-old humans? Where do you draw the lines? One fairly radical theorist and philosopher, Peter Singer, is a professor at Princeton and an animal rights activist. However, he also believes that infanticide should be legal (in cases of babies born with disabilities or diseases that severely limit their chances at having a decent life). Are these ideas compatible? He's one of the biggest, most intelligent, most famous pro-vegan activists - and certainly one of the most controversial. A cow isn't human. A chicken isn't human. Is a fetus human? Should a two-year-old human and a forty-year-old human have the same rights? I'm rambling on and on, but my basic point remains. Humanity is not a black and white issue, and so the use of the word "inhumanity" is not inappropriate in these cases.

You wouldn't want to hang Saddam live at the scene? :lol: Seems like a lot of fun to me. :) My goodness, no :shock: No, I wouldn't. I don't think I would ever find someone's death enjoyable. :\ Isn't that more or less the same thing? Hating Saddam is the thing to do nowadays. Don't get me wrong; I personally don't think he was a good leader, and I don't think many of his actions were moral, and I think he hurt and killed a lot of innocent people. However, he's still human. The mistakes he made are human mistakes. Don't hate him for it; pity him, and hate the system that made him that way, and try to improve it and make sure people don't turn out like he did in the future. Do I think he deserves to die? No, I don't. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't want to be personally responsible for his - or anyone's - death.

I just pm'd Deloria with some questions about a guy in my life, and I'll see what his responses and advice are like :D If he feels like it, that is :P

Yeeah mets fans from new jersey :D Woo :D

Why would you want to execute a famous person? :shock: I would like to: - have a wonderful hot passionate loving relationship and get married - have kids - do something to further social justice in the world (abolish the prison system as we know it, perhaps, and institute centers of reform ideally - but realistically, a smaller action towards this same end :D ) - bungee jumping - dye my hair in alternating turquoise and bright pink stripes - travel. Alone or with a single partner. In hostels, meeting other travellers, but mostly to meet the people who actually live in each individual place.

Heh, yeah, that site is a bit heavy on the "Ahh!! HORROR TORTURE INHUMANITY" fear tactic thing. But for people who have no concept of what a factory farm is, or how we get our meat nowadays, I do think it does a pretty good introduction of the basic injustices that are committed - even if it's a little over-the-top and propoganda-y.

My new year's resolution is to not self-injure, remain alive. Also, to do well in my classes and keep up on my reading and turn in all assignments (AND turn them in on time), instead of losing motivation, wondering "Well, what's the point of school anyway, if I may just wind up being a housewife?," and stopping doing all my schoolwork. :D Also, get a boyfriend :D

There are people called pescatarians who are vegetarians except that they eat fish. Someone who eats fish and poultry (but not beef and other meat derived from mammals) is called a semi-vegetarian. Hope that helps! :D

The ways I listed in my posts are good ACTUAL (not bs) ways to start combating racism. Of course it won't get rid of it completely, but it's a start. So I hope you (and others :D) read them over and think about it.

For Chanukah this year, I got: A sweater, A plane ticket to Texas for spring break this year with some friends, And the continued paying of my college tuition :D THANKS, family :D

I remember crimsonking, because his name is based off of one of the best bands/songs ever :D

probably the only thing i dont agree with you on... I just dont see that killing and eating animals to sustain ourselves (for the very purpose of us being able to live) is immoral. I just cant agree with that idea. Everything else is good but. Yeah, I don't personally agree with it either. It is a common reason people have, though. I believe reason 3 that I have listed there :D

Heys, it's Rae! I'll never forget all of the "Rae bans" :P Ha :D I won't forget those, either... :P Hi Rae :D good to see you're still around :)

Eh, we're a rare bunch. Which is why we're so valuable... Honestly there's so few, I'm always trying to count them but it's unbelievable. Myself, Kayla, fat_slug. Is that it? :( :( also magey, star and goingunder (<-- though she left :() I'm a girl too. I guess I don't post that much though :oops:

Hmm. This is a tough question to answer for people you don't know that well! :D How2PK - one of my dreams in life is for How2PK to become a renowned movie critic. I don't know how to make it happen, but it would make me so happy :D. Then again, he is such a good person, and also just so good with people, that he would also be great as an occupational therapist, or some other such career related to helping people :D Dusqi - he should go into marketing. He understands people and their motivations. He is fascinated by both psychology and economics. He'd hate it so much, but he'd be so gosh darn good at it :D Rick and skelm - You guys are programmers, to the core. runesmithie - I really hope you do get to program for google someday. If that doesn't work out, I'd like for you to program for Microsoft, out of irony's sake :D Anesthesia - It'd be awesome if you became a Dr. Phil kind of dude, only more intelligent, and more sarcastic. You'd gather a huge following. indy500fan - a professor of some sort. Don't know why :D Insane - a philosophy professor. I'd enjoy taking a class with you :D MPC - I think you'd scare me in positions of power... :P... So uhh... just don't become a dictator. Necro - gynecologist. *shudder* Api - I see you getting a good, stable job. Like a stock broker or something. This is too difficult. I really have no idea about most of you. I'm going to stop now. :oops: EDIT: WHAT??? I JUST GOT AN ERROR MESSAGE " The number of smilies in the post (11) is over the limit (10)". I had to take one out. I think this rule is specifically targeted towards me :x

I'm going to go ahead and answer some of the questions/arguments that I've seen come up repeatedly :D Q: Why not stop eating plants then, huh? They're living, too! Is it okay to kill them? Then why not animals? HA, GOTCHA THERE!! A: Plants and animals are extremely different. Some animals have complex nervous systems that may allow them to feel consciousness (like us). Even the simplest animals have simple nerve networks. While few well-versed in the sciences would argue that a jellyfish is really conscious, vegetarians are forced to draw the line somewhere: which animals are alright to kill, and not others? The classic "vegetarian" chooses to draw the line at all animals, simply because it is a good easy clean line to draw - and you have to draw the line somewhere. A pescatarian is vegetarian who also eats fish, which have significantly less complex nervous systems than birds (i.e. chicken, turkey) or mammals (i.e. deer, cow, pig, lamb). Q: But isn't it just part of the food chain? It's natural. This is the way the hierarchy is just supposed to be. A: We are no longer living in a world where we are just part of the food chain. We are pretty much controlling the ecosystem of the planet, and have arguably expanded our human race beyond our "natural" capacity. The animals we are eating aren't part of the normal food chain - they are animals that we have raised in captivity, on FACTORY FARMS, to massively "grow" meat. ALSO, as humans, (naturally omniverous), we are also conscious and have the ability to make rational choice and also consider morality, elevating ourselves to a level above the rest of the animals (arguably - chimpanzees... well, that's another topic altogether). Thus, we don't have to limit ourselves to the level of raw instinct. We have more options than that, and can take an ethical perspective into account. Q: Only people who are rich can have the luxury of eating vegetarian. Poor people can't afford it and need to eat meat. The entire world population couldn't sustain a vegetarian diet. You don't support poverty, do you? HUH? A: Actually, the way the energy pyramid works, only 10% or so of the energy you eat is carried over to the next level of the food chain. So, calorically, in order to "grow" the animals that humans generally eat (herbivores such as cows, pigs, etc), we use up 10x more base level grains and such. If we used the area that is currently used to farm grain for animal feed, to instead farm crops that are good for human eatin's :D, we would theoretically be able to feed 10x more humans. (In reality, this efficiency would be lower than this figure, because not all the farmland would be suitable for growing human-use crops. But it would still be more efficient than what we have now.) So if you really cared about poverty and helping everyone get enough food to survive, you would make vegetarian diets mandatory and kill off factory farms. :D Q: I hate all these damn hippies. They're always trying to tell me what to do and eat! stop forcing this down my throat, crazy hippie! Umm, that's kind of hostile. I don't think it's that different from trying to show people that your religion is the right way and Jesus is the lord, or from trying to get support for an organization that fights poverty. It's something vegetarians believe in, and something they feel would help you and make you a better person. No one should force their opinions down their throat, and I apologize on behalf of vegetarians who do that. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with exposing you to new ideas and opinions and information. This just makes you more aware, and then you can make your own decisions given an expanded knowledge base. Q: Being a vegetarian is unhealthy. You can't get the nutrients and vitamins and proteins you need. It's hard to have a healthy diet, whether you're vegetarian or a meat-eater. I'd say the difficulties of each are fairly comparable. Meat-eaters have to be very careful about cholesterol and fats, for example - and they may not think to eat enough fruits and vegetables to get a lot of vitamins that are only available in them, thinking they have a satisfactorily complete diet. Some great sources of protein for vegetarians are tofu, tempeh, other soy-based products (there's a whole range of meat substitutes available out there!), SEITAN (made from wheat gluten - this is my favourite :D), beans and nuts (legumes in general), some vegetables (broccoli is a decent source of protein, for example), and various other sources. Just do your research and read your nutrition facts. Make sure you get enough Vitamin B12 and Calcium and Vitamin D - these especially can be difficult for vegetarians and especially vegans. Q: So umm, why are you actually vegetarian? A: People usually have one or two of a couple of different answers for this one. These, I think, are the most popular, with emphasis on 2 and 3, and the differences between them: 1) It's healthier - Some people (especially those running in trendy or upscale circles) try this reason. I don't have much of an explanation for it. 2) Killing animals is immoral - Some people don't feel comfortable with eating meat from an animal killed for that purpose, period. They tend to see an animal as a conscious being, and think that it is immoral to kill said animal. 3) The current method of getting meat - that is, factory farming - is immoral and involves unnecessary torture of animals. - This is the most common reason from most intellectual vegetarians. Often, people who see this reason as important agree that being vegan would be ideal. To find out more about factory farming and why it's so bad, I recommend this website :D : http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/animals.html 4) provided by Make7upu101 - It's better for the environment - Some vegetarians are concerned about the ecological impact that mass animal production and containment has on the air, water, and land. Intensive agriculture is more about producing feed for livestock, which is devastating to the environment, energy inefficient, and not ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅsustainableÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

Reading the bible will take you a bumper long time. Most christians haven't read the whole bible. I do old testament studies for a level and we don't need to know more than about 1/10th of it (infact, probably much less) I read it. You get alot better understanding for it when you read the whole thing. But I've also read the Koran, and it's up to you. Basically, Islam is pretty much a fundamentalist religion, whereas Christianity isn't really. Just a note - I don't think it's really possible to call one religion inherently more fundamentalist than the other, just by reading their religious texts; different denominations or sects may be more fundamentalist in their INTERPRETATION of these texts, however. :D