Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Actually knowledge is: Justified True Belief So yes, knowledge does require truth, it is the very essance of knowledge. Aww the plot gets thicker. Knowledge appears to be truth. But truth is never knowledge. Way to miss the point though. I said that knowledge can change. Truth can't. We can learn new things about or world. We can't change the truth about our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How can truth never be knowledge? With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How can truth never be knowledge? Because truth can't change. If you insinuate that truth is knowledge it means it can change. But truth can't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Knowledge is truth. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigra00 Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Don't argue with XplsvBam on this one...I can tell he's fully implying that God is the truth, while everything else is just "knowledge" that can be changed at any time. He could be right. He could be wrong. But either way, it's not a valid argument. The popularity of any given religion today depends on the victories of the wars they fought in the past. - Me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 His definition of knowledge was wrong. He said that the world being flat was knowledge and therefore it isn't always correct. Which goes against the self evident meaning of knowledge that is has to be true. His God maybe is true, but it is not justifed and therefore can't be knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Knowledge is truth. But what if you are lied to? Again knowledge can change, truth can't. EDIT: An actually good example about lying. From the Matrix. Neo Knew he was eating food, he knew he was tasting it, he knew it was real. But it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Then it wouldn't be true and therefore not knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercifull Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I have a justified knowledge and belief that XplsvBam is a religious zealot whose poor debating skills is still nowhere near his lack of knowledge of basic astrophysics or genetics. Mercifull <3 Suzi "We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Knowledge is psychological; perception. Truth is truth no matter what you believe or know. Then it wouldn't be true and therefore not knowledge. Scientific circular reasoning is... still circular reasoning. In case it was over looked. An actual good example from the Matrix. Neo Knew he was eating food, he knew he was tasting it, he knew it was real. But it wasn't. His knowledge changed, not the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How is it phychological, it is a faily simple concept. Knowledge requires 3 things; Justified, True, Belief. If you say truth is constant then you are saying knowledge is constant because knowledge entails truth. Edit: But Neo eating food wasn't true and therefore not knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How is it phychological, it is a faily simple concept. Knowledge requires 3 things; Justified, True, Belief. If you say truth is constant then you are saying knowledge is constant because knowledge entails truth. Circular reasoning again. You can't say that knowledge is truth because truth is knowledge. That is a logical fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Truth isn't knowledge on it's own. It requires justification and belief. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How is it phychological, it is a faily simple concept. Knowledge requires 3 things; Justified, True, Belief. If you say truth is constant then you are saying knowledge is constant because knowledge entails truth. Edit: But Neo eating food wasn't true and therefore not knowledge. I'll play off your definition for a moment. Just to show that it can be true (partly), because you aren't doing a very good job. Justification for Neo tasting the food: his sense of taste and smell. And he believed it. Only thing missing is the truth. So knowledge and truth don't go hand in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 He didn't have knowledge that the food was real then? Your mixing definitions up. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 He didn't have knowledge that the food was real then? Your mixing definitions up. no he did have knowledge, but knowledge isn't truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How many times have I told you, Knoweldge requires; Justified, True, Belief. Neo had a belief he was eating the food, and he had justification for it. But it was not true and therefore NOT knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How many times have I told you, Knoweldge requires; Justified, True, Belief. Neo had a belief he was eating the food, and he had justification for it. But it was not true and therefore NOT knowledge. It is circular reasoning to say truth is knowledge because knowledge is truth. That is not justification. The only problem with your definition is knowledge is psychological. Again with your definition there is no such thing as knowledge, and if that is true there is no such thing as truth. Which is logically flawed. Because if my example is wrong then truth can't be justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigra00 Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 You're arguing the wrong thing. XplsvBam is kinda' right, because everything we know as knowledge isn't necessarily true. We've proved mathematically that time travel is possible...That is knowledge. But in truth, can we actually do it? Probably not. We also have knowlege of UFO's, but in truth, are they aliens from another planet? Probably not. However, since the subject matter is basically Religion vs. Science, XplsvBam's idea is right, but he's wrong because of his "God is the truth even though we have no proof!" attitude, and "Science is wrong because it's just our ebst guess." attitude. The popularity of any given religion today depends on the victories of the wars they fought in the past. - Me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How many times have I told you, Knoweldge requires; Justified, True, Belief. Neo had a belief he was eating the food, and he had justification for it. But it was not true and therefore NOT knowledge. It is circular reasoning to say truth is knowledge because knowledge is truth. That is not justification. As I already have said, truth is NOT knowledge alone. Knowledge requires truth, but also needs justification and belief and therefore not circular reasoning. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 You're arguing the wrong thing. XplsvBam is kinda' right, because everything we know as knowledge isn't necessarily true. We've proved mathematically that time travel is possible...That is knowledge. But in truth, can we actually do it? Probably not. We also have knowlege of UFO's, but in truth, are they aliens from another planet? Probably not. Time Travel: We don't know it's possible and don't have adequate justification. Therefore it's not knowledge. UFO: We don't know if they are true or again have adequate justification. Therefore it is not knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How many times have I told you, Knoweldge requires; Justified, True, Belief. Neo had a belief he was eating the food, and he had justification for it. But it was not true and therefore NOT knowledge. It is circular reasoning to say truth is knowledge because knowledge is truth. That is not justification. As I already have said, truth is NOT knowledge alone. Knowledge requires truth, but also needs justification and belief and therefore not circular reasoning. Again that is circular reasoning because by your definition truth can't be justified. "Science is wrong because it's just our ebst guess." attitude. No that isn't my attitude. My attitude is science can be wrong because knowledge is limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How many times have I told you, Knoweldge requires; Justified, True, Belief. Neo had a belief he was eating the food, and he had justification for it. But it was not true and therefore NOT knowledge. It is circular reasoning to say truth is knowledge because knowledge is truth. That is not justification. As I already have said, truth is NOT knowledge alone. Knowledge requires truth, but also needs justification and belief and therefore not circular reasoning. Again that is circular reasoning because by your definition truth can't be justified. What? How can't truth be justified? Example: X when heated creates Y. A man heats X and creates Y, over and over again to make sure that everytime it creates Y and it does. The man therefore beleives this to be true. = Knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 How many times have I told you, Knoweldge requires; Justified, True, Belief. Neo had a belief he was eating the food, and he had justification for it. But it was not true and therefore NOT knowledge. It is circular reasoning to say truth is knowledge because knowledge is truth. That is not justification. As I already have said, truth is NOT knowledge alone. Knowledge requires truth, but also needs justification and belief and therefore not circular reasoning. Again that is circular reasoning because by your definition truth can't be justified. What? How can't truth be justified? Because Neo knew he was eating food because (justification) he could taste and smell it. And according to you if it is justified it is true. So now our knowledge is it is justified, believed, and true. But it isn't true. The man therefore beleives this to be true. = Knowledge. Jackpot. Belief isn't truth. But belief can be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 What? He didn't know he was eating the food, he beleived he was eating the food. He wasn't eating the food and therefore it was not true, and because it did not fulfill all the requirments of knowledge it is not knowledge. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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