warri0r45 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 The topic is centered around a question, and a subsequent explanation or alternate view that you have to present. Firstly, the question: Do you believe science is the most apt, accurate and valid system for uncovering truth objectively? If yes, explain why. If no, why and what would you suggest is an alternative apt, accurate and valid system of uncovering truth objectively? Lets see how the tip it community sees the validity of science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assassin_696 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I believe science is the absolute road towards the truth in our world. Science is based around logic, experimentation, reasoning and rationality with that occasional stroke of genius now and again. If we reason that a lot of science has it roots somewhere (no matter how distantly) in maths, then we can say with some certainty that whatever methods we apply mathematical reasoning to, will be truth. I'm not articulating myself as fluently as i'd like here, since this is so close to my heart, but maths is truth, it's fundamental, there are 4 assumed logical eucilidean postulates (assumptions) from which absolutely everything else stems. There are no wild assumptions in maths, everything has its roots in the truth of proof, by whatever method. "Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktorkrum77 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Assassin pretty much summed me up. Me doing staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenslime89 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Science is very a very useful way to understand the world around us as you can rationally explain why things happen. If experiments are carried out correctly, then the scientists can be almost 100% sure of the truth. Science is uncovering more of the problems facing the world and just now this is the only half decent way to find out things and understand them. The changing world of science is suited to our changing world, it's almost always accurate if the experiments are carried out correctly with several experiments to find any enomolies. The validity of science is assured with the accurate experiments. In my opinion science is the best way to uncover the truth. I concede that science can go too far, such as cloning just because they can and the so-called "designer babies" that parents could choose the sex, hair colour and other characteristics of their child. However, I would agree with the use of genetic engineering if it was going to be used to save the life of an existing child with a terminal illness or a devestating disease, only if the child being born would not be forgotten or labled as a spare part but as a child - a human life. Photos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warri0r45 Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 Thanks for the responses so far, basically I have the same opinion of you three guys thus far. Just one minor point greenslime, of course, science has the potential to go too far, but that's mostly within the hands of the 'insert title here' engineers who use it. By science I'm specifically referring to the discovery or gaining of knowlege part, but yeah, I pretty much agree with your views on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 It seems as if science is not even trying to uncover the truth. "The underlying goal or purpose of science to society and individuals is to produce useful models of reality." Science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigra00 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 It seems as if science is not even trying to uncover the truth. "The underlying goal or purpose of science to society and individuals is to produce useful models of reality." Science Being as this IS reality, I surely think that it is. The popularity of any given religion today depends on the victories of the wars they fought in the past. - Me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
____ Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 It seems as if science is not even trying to uncover the truth. "The underlying goal or purpose of science to society and individuals is to produce useful models of reality." ScienceShould've kept reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I don't understand the question. Science is validated if it shows its self to be validated. Making up 'insert word' theories is scientific but it isn't validated solely because it is made up with the scientific method. Other wise its just circular reasoning. To argue that all science is validated because it is science is circular reasoning. ------------------- Science is validated if the topic is validated. Religion is validated if the topic is validated. ------------------- Generalizations are just going to get this into a flame war Mr. Warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Sure, it uncovers truth. If knowledge is what matters most to you, then I guess science is the most absolute thing for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I have a question. What validates gravity? We see the effects correct. Well we could argue we see the effects of God. We don't understand what causes gravity. Well obviously we don't understand God. Looks like if gravity is validated God is validated. Well according to the scientific law of circular reasoning God is validated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercifull Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 XplsvBam never ceases to amazing me with his ideas and complete cluelessness on real life. I don't even know where to begin posting a reply to you because you just have no idea and don't even have a basic grasp of science. How goes proving gravity scientifically validate the existence of god? You seriously need to go back to school. Mercifull <3 Suzi "We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 XplsvBam never ceases to amazing me with his ideas and complete cluelessness on real life. I don't even know where to begin posting a reply to you because you just have no idea and don't even have a basic grasp of science. How goes proving gravity scientifically validate the existence of god? You seriously need to go back to school. Because your gravity is my God. When you see an answer behind something I see my God. When you see something that can't be explained I see my God. My God created your gravity. If that isn't a good enough answer then please by all means tell me what gravity is scientifically. And remember I'm not asking for behavior. I'm asking you what causes gravity. Not the aftermath of gravity. Gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercifull Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Every single point mass attracts every other point mass by a force heading along the line combining the two. The force is proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses: F is the magnitude of the gravitational force between the two point masses G is the gravitational constant m1 is the mass of the first point mass m2 is the mass of the second point mass r is the distance between the two point masses This explains gravity and how big the effect will be. Ie not only the effect, but also the causes. But of course this is meaningless to you because you'd rather stay ignorant and think that "god makes it" Mercifull <3 Suzi "We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Every single point mass attracts every other point mass by a force heading along the line combining the two. The force is proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the point masses: F is the magnitude of the gravitational force between the two point masses G is the gravitational constant m1 is the mass of the first point mass m2 is the mass of the second point mass r is the distance between the two point masses This explains gravity and how big the effect will be. Ie not only the effect, but also the causes. But of course this is meaningless to you because you'd rather stay ignorant and think that "god makes it" You still didn't explain what causes gravity. Why do masses attract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercifull Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Perhaps someone else could answer this question for me? Do all my posts simply say "rhubarb rhubarb"? Because it seems that that's all XplsvBam is seeing. Mercifull <3 Suzi "We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest XplsvBam Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Perhaps someone else could answer this question for me? Do all my posts simply say "rhubarb rhubarb"? Because it seems that that's all XplsvBam is seeing. Haha funny. If all I saw was "rhubarb rhubarb" I wouldn't have aced my 4 semesters of Physics :lol:. Anyways your answer to what causes the attraction of masses is gravity. Which is validated through scientific circular reasoning. My answer is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
____ Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 If you're not a fan of Quantum Mechanics - anything someone posts to explain the origin of gravity and such is going to go right over your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apinagez Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 People seem to confuse two things, especially when enblinded by religious fanatism. Science is the ultimate source of truth for anything logic related. You can't take it to the spiritual field. Just as you can't use religious arguments to disprove scientifical truth. People have the right to believe whatever they think is right, even if it is wrong. They even have the right to think gravity is God's great magnet. They shouldn't, however, confuse spiritual beliefs with scientifical truth. Those lie in different areas. ^The most disturbing signature on Tip.it^Last.fm|HELLY KAYLA!|Oh the mehagurtz!|#Siencemakers"they care less about their spelling mistakes then I." - Lionheart"apinagez... let me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Should've kept reading. Being as this IS reality, I surely think that it is. Care to explain/elaborate what I'm clearly not getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam007 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Perhaps someone else could answer this question for me? Do all my posts simply say "rhubarb rhubarb"? Because it seems that that's all XplsvBam is seeing. Haha funny. If all I saw was "rhubarb rhubarb" I wouldn't have aced my 4 semesters of Physics :lol:. Anyways your answer to what causes the attraction of masses is gravity. Which is validated through scientific circular reasoning. My answer is God. So your answer is that only through God can we uncover every truth in life? As to what causes particles to be attracted to each other, why are you assuming that since we haven't discovered every detail about gravity, then the answer only lies in God? How can we advance anywhere if we can only find truths through God if we can't make any communication with him? All we have is the bible - unless you're saying the only piece of truth is the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonpost Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Perhaps someone else could answer this question for me? Do all my posts simply say "rhubarb rhubarb"? Because it seems that that's all XplsvBam is seeing. Haha funny. If all I saw was "rhubarb rhubarb" I wouldn't have aced my 4 semesters of Physics :lol:. Anyways your answer to what causes the attraction of masses is gravity. Which is validated through scientific circular reasoning. My answer is God. Ah, I see your point XplsvBam. However, you are flawed. You expect everything to be able to be related to one root cause, in your case God. The reason you say science is circular is because the question "What is gravity? The attraction of masses to each other. Why are masses attracted to each other? Because of gravity". I think that is what you are saying. Well, here's the deal. In WORDS you are correct with what we are saying. The thing with science is that we simply don't know everything! There are so many examples of other things which we can (almost) fully explain without the use of circular logic. Science evolves and grows. Science has allowed us to understand gravity, develop equations, know how it affects our universe, and much more. God hasn't done jack for us (recently, at least...), so we turn to science to understand our universe. Sure, we could be happy believing in religion and God and go on living our happy lives. But for some of us, God isn't enough. It's not enough to just believe in the bible and go to church every Sunday (or whatever it is you do). Some of us want to know more, and we want to explore. Science seems to be one of the better ways to objectively study the universe. Subjective study of the universe is included in philosophy through poetry, art, essays, etc. Science is not the only thing that seeks truth outside the bible. So please, XplsvBam, while you may believe in religion, do not belittle science's attempts to understand the universe. It has done so much more for humanity than religion ever has. Runescape Name: "unbug07"Expand your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assassin_696 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 You still didn't explain what causes gravity. Why do masses attract? The simple answer is: matter warps the fabric of spacetime, which causes the effects of gravity that we see today. Rolling a ping pong ball along a sheet stretched flat is the basic analogy. If the sheet is flat and there is no other mass acting on the sheet then the ball will travel in a straight line. If we placed a large bowling ball at the centre of the sheet it would create a dip (the warping of spacetime) which the ping pong ball would roll in to, and if we didn't have friction (like in space) the ping pong ball would go into orbit around the bowling ball. Gravity is far from an unexplainable effect. And all your causes of God can probably be explained by science, but we won't go into that. By the way XplsvBam, your signature is incorrect and spreading misinformation. "Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuBai Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 The validity of science is based upon it's central assumptions and premise, which is where it returns to it's roots, the study of philosophy. Of course, science is invalid as it stands if we were to suddenly prove a completely different epistemological stand point than that upon which we are now pearched. If it could be demonstrated that reality was no more than an illusion of thoughts, then science would only apply to the world of sensation, or that in which we currently believe ourselves to subsist. Here we would not be able to say science is valid because it cannot determine the truth of that reality as it now stands, but only the one of sensations. Yet it seems to me impossible to prove that what we percieve to be reality is infact not reality. As Bertrand Russel says, we cannot prove, deductivley, that what we percieve is reality, and in the abscence of this deductive proof we should rely on an inductive one. The suggestion of the inductive evidence points towards this being the reality. Scince science operates in a deductive frame from this point onwards, we can only query the first step, that inductive leap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebdragon Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Should've kept reading. Being as this IS reality, I surely think that it is. Care to explain/elaborate what I'm clearly not getting? So basically, you're saying "God did it, stop thinking, God just did it, he's supernatural so there's no point", rather than having us try and uncover the Truth of existence, am I correct? That's the vibe I'm getting, correct me if I'm wrong. If so, then let me respond by saying this: God, if He exists, is infinite. We can never fully understand Him. But the more we learn about him, the closer we are to Him. Science, through it's analysis of what is and isn't Truth, theoretically brings us closer to knowing God, and as some religious guy would say it, "sharing in His glory". Science is on God's side. Dunno why some people seem to think otherwise. [if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.] Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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