My issues with Christianity.

[baron8000]

Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

 

WOW, just wow... this is exactly what he is arguing against, pushing his beliefs on someone else. You really are a christian.

 

 

 

At what point did I say he should change? He can do whatever the hell he likes as far as I'm concerned. At what part did I say I was Christian? I merely exercised my "right to disagree with something". It was also meant as a hypothetical situation to show the reason not to start a completely random attack on someone's way of living. The fact you see it as cruel (which yes, it was meant to be, the analogy would fail otherwise) is exactly how Christians feel when they are attacked in a similar way. Get my point?

[Nom]

Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

 

WOW, just wow... this is exactly what he is arguing against, pushing his beliefs on someone else. You really are a christian.

 

 

 

For the love of. . . Stop stereotyping Christians. Please. Those who argue from your point of view are latching on to few and far between examples of some extreme Christians. The same is true of any religion -- Muslim radicals can be terrorists for crying out loud! And if you were actually considerate enough to look past these sensational issues to the core and majority of those in the faith, you would realize that there is nothing objectionable about them as people, just as the vast majority of them find nothing objectionable about you. Their faith gives them a moral code -- what's so wrong with that?

 

 

 

Live and let live.

[navyplaya]

Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

 

WOW, just wow... this is exactly what he is arguing against, pushing his beliefs on someone else. You really are a christian.

 

 

 

At what point did I say he should change? He can do whatever the hell he likes as far as I'm concerned. At what part did I say I was Christian? I merely exercised my "right to disagree with something". It was also meant as a hypothetical situation to show the reason not to start a completely random attack on someone's way of living. The fact you see it as cruel (which yes, it was meant to be, the analogy would fail otherwise) is exactly how Christians feel when they are attacked in a similar way. Get my point?

 

 

 

When christians are attacked.... You do realize the point of this topic right? Christians are constantly lashing out at people for not believing, and when those people question the chrisitans reasoning, the christians are the ones attacked?! I am failing to see how this is so. No one attacked you, he stated his feelings, you attacked them first, and now we attack back, what do you expect?

[StrOwez]

[hide]

 

 

 

(1)Um....I don't what you're getting at about the child being unique. But the second point is actually a hotly debated topic, I really don't understand the concept of predestination myself, but regardless of whether God knows where you are going, there is still a choice you can make.(2) God doesn't influence that choice, which is where free will comes from.

 

 

 

(1)

 

The thing I mean about a child being unique is, every child is different but every child means the same to God - from the biblical point of view.

 

This I challenge as being wrong since, I'm getting a fair shot at life whereas a child born into starvation gets 0 chance of being successful in life, it just isn't fair.

 

(2)

 

God does influence that choice, since he did make me, therefore he planned my life. Yes I know I can make choices during my lifetime, but god knows the ultimate choice, since he is God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if you think about it, you do have to cross a line to be punished. In this case, after having a part of Him killed and Man still refusing to accept him, it'd be fair to get a punishment.

I don't have to cross the line to be punished, I don't have to kill anyone. To be punished according to the Bible I can live a perfectly normal life, leave all my money to a charity before I die and still go to be tormented in hell, just because I don't understand the whole concept of Christianity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

THAT is the whole point of the Bible! That God died for his creation, to prove his love to the people he created. Unfortunately, your runescape account isn't very alive. But let's say you do create a sentient robot of some kind, and sacrifice a part of yourself to keep it alive. Wouldn't that signify the greatest love of all? And wouldn't the sentient creation also be aware of how much it is loved?

Well obviously that doesn't prove his love to me, as I see people babies (which he created) being killed for nothing that they have done to deserve.

 

 

 

Funny you should mention robots because that's exactly what religion makes people, think the same, do the same things. Back to your point, if I was ever meant to be God and wanted people to love me I'd just make them love me in their genes ever since they're born.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the folks in the rainforest seem to get unlucky don't they. The Bible doesn't say what happens to people not acquainted with Jesus, but then again, it is the fault of those who did know but were afraid or too lazy to tell them. In any case, these guys and the dead babies go into the category of "Bible doesn't say".

The category 'Bible doesn't say' that's a new one, in fact you can get away with anything by using that phrase. Tbh the bible does say what's going to happen, lets look at what the bible DOES say. Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus and accept him as their saviour WILL go to hell.

 

 

 

1. This is kind of an unknown. From what I've heard on this topic, the child goes to heaven or hell based on how he would have acted if he had lived (God's omnipotent, so he would've known what the kid would've picked)

 

 

 

2. God made you, but he gave you a will. He knows what you will decide, but that doesn't mean that he pushes you to those choices. He just knows what YOU will pick

 

 

 

3. Hmm...sorta. Bible says, "Seek and you will find, etc. etc." If you wanted to look for God and went to look for him, he would reveal himself to you. Understanding of how to walk the Christian walk comes AFTER you accept God as your Lord and master. How else would non-Christians be expected to get to know and follow God?

 

 

 

4. About babies being killed: I don't see what you're looking for here. Miracles for every baby that would be killed otherwise? Man kills the babies with his own sinful will.

 

 

 

5. About the robots: If the thing to love was in their genes, then it wouldn't exactly be a choice. Could you explain more about how religion makes robots?

 

What I see in some of my fellow Christians is that they saw God's love and wanted to get to know him, which led them to live the Christian life.

 

 

 

6. True, that. People without Jesus go to hell. However, those rainforest guys do get chances. Have you ever seen that movie "End of the Spear" or something based on a true story? Those guys got a son of a missionary that they spear'd to lead them to Jesus.

 

 

 

Btw, I respect that you don't understand Christianity. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[/hide]

 

 

 

(1)

 

Your points 1 and 2 contradict each other, in point 1 you say that God will judge the baby by how he would act out his life if he was born.

 

Yet in point 2, you say we have free will? The free will I'm talking about is not the kind of a chose, it's the free will of weather God knows what will happen to me when I die before my birth.

 

 

 

(2) I have tried to seek God, still I haven't found him. If I'm totally honest , a part of me wishes I did believe in God, then maybe I'd feel the joy you do when worshipping him. However due to my logical mind set, I can't grasp something illogical.

 

 

 

(3) I'm talking about fairness for everyone, which is what the bible says when it claims that we all get free will, yet that child has no free will in it being born into poverty.

 

 

 

 

 

(4) My remark of being a robot was aimed at the activity of some Christians i.e. they do most things the same i.e. Follow the same rules, go the same places, socialise with same people, discriminate the same people.

 

 

 

(5)I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment, however I have heard of missionaries having trouble communicating with people in the rainforest, because of the language barrier etc.. However a part of me thinks religion will actually stabilise those parts of the world.

[navyplaya]

Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

 

WOW, just wow... this is exactly what he is arguing against, pushing his beliefs on someone else. You really are a christian.

 

 

 

For the love of. . . Stop stereotyping Christians. Please. Those who argue from your point of view are latching on to few and far between examples of some extreme Christians. The same is true of any religion -- Muslim radicals can be terrorists for crying out loud! And if you were actually considerate enough to look past these sensational issues to the core and majority of those in the faith, you would realize that there is nothing objectionable about them as people, just as the vast majority of them find nothing objectionable about you. Their faith gives them a moral code -- what's so wrong with that?

 

 

 

Live and let live.

 

 

 

It might be stereotyping, but the fact that not one christian (assuming) has posted on this topic saying " well those are you beliefs and i have others simply put " proves that sterotype right. A person stated their feelings about what was wrong with christianty, and every christian (assuming again) that has posted has argued with HIS beliefs

[StrOwez]

Seriously now can we stop saying this is a flame war, as both parties of the argument invested time and energy into the debate.

[heartless619]

o dear God...another bash the Christians thread...

 

well i agree with bubsa...should we make a thread about you? and our problems with you?

[Nom]

It might be stereotyping, but the fact that not one christian (assuming) has posted on this topic saying " well those are you beliefs and i have others simply put " proves that sterotype right. A person stated their feelings about what was wrong with christianty, and every christian (assuming again) that has posted has argued with HIS beliefs

 

 

 

Well, your assumptions were wrong. I did.

 

 

 

I will repeat: Live and let live.

 

 

 

I'm done. This is a lost cause, for both sides.

[underu2000]

It might be stereotyping, but the fact that not one christian (assuming) has posted on this topic saying " well those are you beliefs and i have others simply put " proves that sterotype right. A person stated their feelings about what was wrong with christianty, and every christian (assuming again) that has posted has argued with HIS beliefs

 

Well, it is, and what you said came out pretty harsh. I have to disagree, i don't see anyone, christian or otherwise, saying that "your belief is obviously wrong", only people who have different beliefs and want to prove that it makes sense.

 

I think the point of the thread is an argument to begin with, since the author is asking people to explain Christianity to him. Besides, every one of these threads are aggressive to some degree, being on the topic of disproving Christianity. It's why i don't like these religious threads, they quickly turn into flamefests.

[baron8000]

Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

 

WOW, just wow... this is exactly what he is arguing against, pushing his beliefs on someone else. You really are a christian.

 

 

 

At what point did I say he should change? He can do whatever the hell he likes as far as I'm concerned. At what part did I say I was Christian? I merely exercised my "right to disagree with something". It was also meant as a hypothetical situation to show the reason not to start a completely random attack on someone's way of living. The fact you see it as cruel (which yes, it was meant to be, the analogy would fail otherwise) is exactly how Christians feel when they are attacked in a similar way. Get my point?

 

 

 

When christians are attacked.... You do realize the point of this topic right? Christians are constantly lashing out at people for not believing, and when those people question the chrisitans reasoning, the christians are the ones attacked?! I am failing to see how this is so. No one attacked you, he stated his feelings, you attacked them first, and now we attack back, what do you expect?

 

 

 

bold Once again you judge the majority, the 2.1 BILLION Christians that live in this world by a small minority.

 

 

 

underline I find the implication that god is nothing more than a petulant child who created humanity for entertainment incredibly offensive and therefore an attack. You can twist this anyway you like but the thread started with anti-Christian views with zero provocation there was no reason for him to write in such a tone. If you have problems understanding theology just ask, no need to take the sarcastic and frankly petulant tone he did.

[StrOwez]

[hide]

[

 

 

 

 

 

1) And have you read that book? Properly? Or just caught passages out of context and misinterpreted like so many others who decide to attack religion? Have you spent the hours of quiet contemplation that many will have over the book? I severely doubt it. Even if you have you intend to judge the entire of the faith on the text? Despite there being vast differences between the innumerable branches of Christianity, fundamentalists, literalists, those who just try to follow the core messages of love, care and morality. Not everyone will follow the book word for word, you would do well to learn that and not do something as idiotic as making such a huge assumption.

 

 

 

2) So your ignorance of other religions means they are of the hook? Way to choose your battles oh crusader of the light.

 

 

 

3)

I have a right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with

Ok, playing by your rules now. I disagree with the your attitude to your mother - you obviously have problems with religion yet you let your mother continue to be part of it. Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

BTW don't you dare report or set a mod on the last part of my post - your entire thread is based on the ehem

right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with

so therefore either I must be allowed to make such comments or this thread is equally out of bounds.

[/hide]

 

 

 

(1) I've read the Bible from cover to cover. I spend time thinking about passages. (if that's what you was getting at)

 

 

 

Your telling me I'm picking bits out of the bible, yet you say you chose to ignore some and concentrate on the love, care and morality?

 

 

 

(2) wrong, I don't believe in any religion yet. Because I'm yet to see proof, your assumption of my ignorance to other religions is quiet offensive but so be it.

 

 

 

(3) Lowest type of argument I had morally speaking. You say you use my method, then I'll use yours, The Bible teaches us to respect our parents and do what they want us to (hence Jesus dying because his father told him to)

 

If my mum wants to believe in Christianity that's her choice and I respect that, however it did also change her attitude to me, in that she and her new found friends want me to become a Christian but I can't for reasons posted.

 

 

 

I'll admit it Christianity makes my mum more happy, and as a loving son I'd respect anything that makes her happy (even though I may not agree)

[heartless619]

 

the problems I have with Christianity, these problems stop me believing it. It's different to Christianity having issues with me as I'm not the one trying to get people to follow my moral values if such.

 

 

 

 

keep it to your self? because there *was* no disscussion..you came in here telling us your lifes problems....

 

 

 

and that second part of what you said..."I'm not the one...."

 

maybe you are...as you feel the need to come here and tell us all your problems...in the hopes that someone will believe you and follow you.

 

 

 

and going into great detail about what you dont like about us...

 

thats why religion is based totally on the F Word......faith...

 

and when you try to target us...please be more specific on who your talking about...

 

the pastors on TV in the mornings...is total crap...and not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian...

 

 

 

LET THE FLAMES commence...

[navyplaya]

[since the author is asking people to explain Christianity to him

 

Well then explain it, don't argue with his beliefs.

 

 

 

As to N0M you are right, and I am sorry for including you in that group.

 

 

 

But still, everyone else did argue with his beliefs. It would be like saying "Americans speak English" and then someone saying thats a stereotype because their are 100k people that don't speak English.

[underu2000]

Well then explain it, don't argue with his beliefs.

 

But still, everyone else did argue with his beliefs. It would be like saying "Americans speak English" and then someone saying thats a stereotype because their are 100k people that don't speak English.

 

In trying to explain it, argument arises. It's inevitable. Besides, I tried my best not to sound too aggressive. It'd be nice if you not attack Christianity as well, in case you were thinking I was ranting for nothing.

 

And your analogy is yet another attack, if I interpret it correctly. You are saying that a majority of Christians are overzealous and only a minor few are not knuckled-head and passive. That's not entirely helpful.

[Adventurer]

[hide]

 

(1)

 

Your points 1 and 2 contradict each other, in point 1 you say that God will judge the baby by how he would act out his life if he was born.

 

Yet in point 2, you say we have free will? The free will I'm talking about is not the kind of a chose, it's the free will of weather God knows what will happen to me when I die before my birth.

 

 

 

(2) I have tried to seek God, still I haven't found him. If I'm totally honest , a part of me wishes I did believe in God, then maybe I'd feel the joy you do when worshipping him. However due to my logical mind set, I can't grasp something illogical.

 

 

 

(3) I'm talking about fairness for everyone, which is what the bible says when it claims that we all get free will, yet that child has no free will in it being born into poverty.

 

 

 

 

 

(4) My remark of being a robot was aimed at the activity of some Christians i.e. they do most things the same i.e. Follow the same rules, go the same places, socialise with same people, discriminate the same people.

 

 

 

(5)I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment, however I have heard of missionaries having trouble communicating with people in the rainforest, because of the language barrier etc.. However a part of me thinks religion will actually stabilise those parts of the world.

[/hide]

 

 

 

1. ...what? Explain please. You just shot a term out without defining it. Explain what you are thinking please.

 

 

 

2. You can't call it illogical. You don't understand it well enough to conclude that it is indeed illogical. Your mindset right now seems to be that God doesn't exist, seeing as you call it illogical. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

3. I don't quite understand what you expect of free will. Do you expect a default, 1st world setting for everybody to begin with? That child can make choices of its own, so I don't see what you're trying to say.

 

 

 

4. Also, if you're only talking about the robotic Christians that only try to act like Christians to make themselves look good, don't bunch them with the Christians that actually live for God. I've seen both, and it's totally different. The poser Christians are not really Christians.

 

 

 

5. Umm...ok. So are you saying that the rainforest guys DO have a chance to know God, or no? That was sort of a neutral comment more than anything.

[baron8000]

[hide][/hide]

 

 

 

 

 

1) And have you read that book? Properly? Or just caught passages out of context and misinterpreted like so many others who decide to attack religion? Have you spent the hours of quiet contemplation that many will have over the book? I severely doubt it. Even if you have you intend to judge the entire of the faith on the text? Despite there being vast differences between the innumerable branches of Christianity, fundamentalists, literalists, those who just try to follow the core messages of love, care and morality. Not everyone will follow the book word for word, you would do well to learn that and not do something as idiotic as making such a huge assumption.

 

 

 

2) So your ignorance of other religions means they are of the hook? Way to choose your battles oh crusader of the light.

 

 

 

3)

I have a right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with

Ok, playing by your rules now. I disagree with the your attitude to your mother - you obviously have problems with religion yet you let your mother continue to be part of it. Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

BTW don't you dare report or set a mod on the last part of my post - your entire thread is based on the ehem

right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with

so therefore either I must be allowed to make such comments or this thread is equally out of bounds.

 

(1) I've read the Bible from cover to cover. I spend time thinking about passages. (if that's what you was getting at)

 

 

 

Your telling me I'm picking bits out of the bible, yet you say you chose to ignore some and concentrate on the love, care and morality?

 

 

 

(2) wrong, I don't believe in any religion yet. Because I'm yet to see proof, your assumption of my ignorance to other religions is quiet offensive but so be it.

 

 

 

(3) Lowest type of argument I had morally speaking. You say you use my method, then I'll use yours, The Bible teaches us to respect our parents and do what they want us to (hence Jesus dying because his father told him to)

 

If my mum wants to believe in Christianity that's her choice and I respect that, however it did also change her attitude to me, in that she and her new found friends want me to become a Christian but I can't for reasons posted.

 

 

 

I'll admit it Christianity makes my mum more happy, and as a loving son I'd respect anything that makes her happy (even though I may not agree)[/hide]

 

 

 

I'm afraid you have me very very wrong, although my own ambiguity is partly to blame. My reference to "picking bits" was because most people who start threads such as these have gone to atheism.com and read parts of the bible out of context, not necessarily meaning what they seem to say. In no way do I mean to take the bible literally and word for word, such is the action of fundamentalists (who personally I disagree with, although that is another matter for another time). I would like to keep my own views out of this as it would discredit me somewhat however I suppose a tendency to view Christianity as a moral guidebook whilst realising its constraints and age is a suitable analogy for now. Anyway how to interpret the Bible is a long and complex subject and not one I feel elaborating on at 12.30 at night :wink: . Also, do bear with me whilst I wait for some evidence of true deep reading of the Bible, it is very easy to type things on the internet.

 

 

 

2) I said you were ignorant of other religions as you said yourself you knew most about Christianity and sorry to break it to you, but you know very little about that. It seems your experiences of the faith so far have been poor and I'm deeply sorry about that but I'd hate for you to lump the moderate majority in with those who convert constantly.

 

 

 

3) Once again I blame my own ambiguity, of course I meant no insult to you, I merely hoped to give you a taste (bitter as it is) of how it feels to be questioned when you have done nothing wrong. Rest assured I mean no disrespect at all.

 

 

 

I suppose my main problem was your tone in your initial post, you say you have problems understanding, why not just ask then? There are plenty of people who will be happy to answer your questions but the tone of your initial post (which you hopefully realise as potentially offensive) is not going to win you any help.

 

 

 

I've taken a step back, I hope we can discuss this cooly and calmly, If you do have any questions about theology I will do my best to answer them, but please be serious about what is to some a very serious matter.

 

 

 

EDIT - I r tired, I'll do my best to answer anything tomorrow although I implore the mods to leave this open as I feel most of the flaming is dying off now and we have a chance for some real progress.

[navyplaya]

And your analogy is yet another attack, if I interpret it correctly. You are saying that a majority of Christians are overzealous and only a minor few are not knuckled-head and passive. That's not entirely helpful.

 

 

 

From my experience that is how I feel. How ever since I am in highschool and the majority of this experience has been dealing with zealous immature teenagers, I will admit that it could be due to immaturity and that if you looked at an older age group the percentages would be reversed. But as I said I am dealing with my experience, and this is what I have experienced.

[StrOwez]

[hide]

 

(1) As for the child in starvation, he has no such gifts, but still the choice, and the promise of the fourth beatitude: Blessed are ye that hunger now for ye shall be filled. (Luke 6:21). Sure, it may not be comforting to non-believers, but it's something.

 

 

 

 

 

(2)You don't have to cross a line to be punished? Then when do you get punished, for nothing? The line here is not taking the last chance to redeem yourself, that is in Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

(3)

 

You see babies being killed for nothing, and you still don't recognize the blessings in your life? And they aren't "being killed", they die of natural causes, like all that of natural disasters and wars. These things cannot be avoided, unless God made miracles for everybody to stay alive. Then it would be a perfect world, and we wouldn't need God.

 

 

 

(4)

 

Oh, i walked into that one with the robots didn't I...But it's not a bad thing for people to do the same things, and think alike. Everyone is different, an d their differences show, all religion does is lay down some laws so that you don't do things that disrupt order, much like Hammurabi's the Napoleanic Code. Except on a larger scale.

 

And as for people "automatically loving God", that doesn't cover free will, does it?

 

 

 

(5)

 

 

And you don't go to hell for not believing. You go to hell for hearing and refusing to believe, effectively telling God to beat it. The reason I said what I said is because somethings really aren't mentioned in the bible, like what happens to children and those who never heard of Jesus.

[/hide]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) I'm getting at the fact that God isn't fair on everyone, which the Bible says is otherwise, I'll say it again. A baby is born into poverty didn't chose to, therefore he should feel unfairness to the baby born into a wealthy familly.

 

 

 

(2) I didn't do anything wrong to Jesus, IMO his a nice guy, you can say he died for my sins so be it, I never heart him in any way. Although I Know SOME Christians would say I was the one who put him on that cross.

 

 

 

(3) hey, I'm thankful for what I got, but that's due to my parents working their arse off to get me here not a man who died 2000 years ago. The babies I'm talking about are the ones born to die, if you must. They have 0 chance at life.

 

 

 

 

 

(4) I agree people doing things they like together isn't bad, it's when they try to force me to do those things, that's bad.

 

 

 

(5) The Bible says 'those who believe shall not perish, but have eternal life' Therefore those that don't , don't simple as. And the thing that you say about hearing and then not believing is somewhat blackmailing, i.e. I told you to believe if you don't your going to hell. Well sorry I just don't understand!

[StrOwez]

[hide]

[hide]

 

(1)

 

Your points 1 and 2 contradict each other, in point 1 you say that God will judge the baby by how he would act out his life if he was born.

 

Yet in point 2, you say we have free will? The free will I'm talking about is not the kind of a chose, it's the free will of weather God knows what will happen to me when I die before my birth.

 

 

 

(2) I have tried to seek God, still I haven't found him. If I'm totally honest , a part of me wishes I did believe in God, then maybe I'd feel the joy you do when worshipping him. However due to my logical mind set, I can't grasp something illogical.

 

 

 

(3) I'm talking about fairness for everyone, which is what the bible says when it claims that we all get free will, yet that child has no free will in it being born into poverty.

 

 

 

 

 

(4) My remark of being a robot was aimed at the activity of some Christians i.e. they do most things the same i.e. Follow the same rules, go the same places, socialise with same people, discriminate the same people.

 

 

 

(5)I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment, however I have heard of missionaries having trouble communicating with people in the rainforest, because of the language barrier etc.. However a part of me thinks religion will actually stabilise those parts of the world.

[/hide]

 

 

 

1. ...what? Explain please. You just shot a term out without defining it. Explain what you are thinking please.

 

 

 

2. You can't call it illogical. You don't understand it well enough to conclude that it is indeed illogical. Your mindset right now seems to be that God doesn't exist, seeing as you call it illogical. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

3. I don't quite understand what you expect of free will. Do you expect a default, 1st world setting for everybody to begin with? That child can make choices of its own, so I don't see what you're trying to say.

 

 

 

4. Also, if you're only talking about the robotic Christians that only try to act like Christians to make themselves look good, don't bunch them with the Christians that actually live for God. I've seen both, and it's totally different. The poser Christians are not really Christians.

 

 

 

5. Umm...ok. So are you saying that the rainforest guys DO have a chance to know God, or no? That was sort of a neutral comment more than anything.

[/hide]

 

 

 

(1) You said that the baby who will die early in his life without having the chance of making mistakes etc, will get judged by God depending on how he would of lived his life and his actions. Therefore your making the person totally lose control and God take over yet on your second point you said to me that we have free will? To which I put the former argument that yes some of us may have aspects of free will, whilst others do not. Hence saying God isn't fair on every person that he makes.

 

 

 

(2) I'm sure that having a God can't be logical it requires faith. (because you can't see God ) Yes I lost my faith, yet I'm agnostic and still open to the idea of something being out there.

 

 

 

(3) That's exactly what I'm getting at. If we all had free will then we would have to be in default setting, yet we're not and therefore there is no free will.

 

 

 

(4) I've also seen both, suppose your right in drawing the line between them, but you have to admit they act the same because they believe the same stuff, this isn't really an issue with me, but I feel that a person loses a bit of his/her uniqueness because of this.

 

 

 

(5) About the rainforest guys, I'm saying that they would be better off believing in God because maybe it would bring them up to a higher standard of living, since it would instruct some good morals onto them.

 

However whether they'd go to heaven or not is another matter.

[Korskin]

My mother became a born again Christian 4 years ago, which totally changed her, but she seems happy enough so IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m not worried about that. However when she and people alike try to force their religion on me I get very annoyed. And I just canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t grasp how they believe in The Bible and base their whole lives around it.

 

 

 

Now I went to a Christian school, got an A in my religious studies (marks gospel, and issue paper) So I know the bible, I also get forced to go to church every Sunday. Anyway I will proceed with the things I canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t understand and the things I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t understand I usually donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe.

 

I've also experienced people forcing their religion on me. Especially my father. He dragged me to church many times even though I didn't want to go. That was of course very annoying.

 

 

 

Today I'm actually thankful that he was so eager on getting me to church. I now understand that he just wanted me to get to know Jesus and become a christian for real. Still, I don't think I'll be as persuasive as my father was/is as I'm by nature rather laid back. And I''m generally against forcing people to do anything.

 

 

 

But can you really blame someone who wants to share with others the greatest thing he's ever found?

[StrOwez]

[hide][/hide]

 

 

 

 

 

1) And have you read that book? Properly? Or just caught passages out of context and misinterpreted like so many others who decide to attack religion? Have you spent the hours of quiet contemplation that many will have over the book? I severely doubt it. Even if you have you intend to judge the entire of the faith on the text? Despite there being vast differences between the innumerable branches of Christianity, fundamentalists, literalists, those who just try to follow the core messages of love, care and morality. Not everyone will follow the book word for word, you would do well to learn that and not do something as idiotic as making such a huge assumption.

 

 

 

2) So your ignorance of other religions means they are of the hook? Way to choose your battles oh crusader of the light.

 

 

 

3)

I have a right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with

Ok, playing by your rules now. I disagree with the your attitude to your mother - you obviously have problems with religion yet you let your mother continue to be part of it. Any child worth their salt would try to persuade a parent out of something they felt was wrong. Now, feel angry someone questioned the way you lived your life? Probably, THAT is the way Christians feel after a completely unprecedented attack on their way of life - its not fun is it.

 

 

 

BTW don't you dare report or set a mod on the last part of my post - your entire thread is based on the ehem

right to point out the things I'm disagreeing with

so therefore either I must be allowed to make such comments or this thread is equally out of bounds.

 

(1) I've read the Bible from cover to cover. I spend time thinking about passages. (if that's what you was getting at)

 

 

 

Your telling me I'm picking bits out of the bible, yet you say you chose to ignore some and concentrate on the love, care and morality?

 

 

 

(2) wrong, I don't believe in any religion yet. Because I'm yet to see proof, your assumption of my ignorance to other religions is quiet offensive but so be it.

 

 

 

(3) Lowest type of argument I had morally speaking. You say you use my method, then I'll use yours, The Bible teaches us to respect our parents and do what they want us to (hence Jesus dying because his father told him to)

 

If my mum wants to believe in Christianity that's her choice and I respect that, however it did also change her attitude to me, in that she and her new found friends want me to become a Christian but I can't for reasons posted.

 

 

 

I'll admit it Christianity makes my mum more happy, and as a loving son I'd respect anything that makes her happy (even though I may not agree)[/hide]

 

 

 

I'm afraid you have me very very wrong, although my own ambiguity is partly to blame. My reference to "picking bits" was because most people who start threads such as these have gone to atheism.com and read parts of the bible out of context, not necessarily meaning what they seem to say. In no way do I mean to take the bible literally and word for word, such is the action of fundamentalists (who personally I disagree with, although that is another matter for another time). I would like to keep my own views out of this as it would discredit me somewhat however I suppose a tendency to view Christianity as a moral guidebook whilst realising its constraints and age is a suitable analogy for now. Anyway how to interpret the Bible is a long and complex subject and not one I feel elaborating on at 12.30 at night :wink: . Also, do bear with me whilst I wait for some evidence of true deep reading of the Bible, it is very easy to type things on the internet.

 

 

 

2) I said you were ignorant of other religions as you said yourself you knew most about Christianity and sorry to break it to you, but you know very little about that. It seems your experiences of the faith so far have been poor and I'm deeply sorry about that but I'd hate for you to lump the moderate majority in with those who convert constantly.

 

 

 

3) Once again I blame my own ambiguity, of course I meant no insult to you, I merely hoped to give you a taste (bitter as it is) of how it feels to be questioned when you have done nothing wrong. Rest assured I mean no disrespect at all.

 

 

 

I suppose my main problem was your tone in your initial post, you say you have problems understanding, why not just ask then? There are plenty of people who will be happy to answer your questions but the tone of your initial post (which you hopefully realise as potentially offensive) is not going to win you any help.

 

 

 

I've taken a step back, I hope we can discuss this cooly and calmly, If you do have any questions about theology I will do my best to answer them, but please be serious about what is to some a very serious matter.

 

 

 

EDIT - I r tired, I'll do my best to answer anything tomorrow although I implore the mods to leave this open as I feel most of the flaming is dying off now and we have a chance for some real progress.

 

 

 

(1,2) I do know the different ways of interpreting the bible, parables and such. I have been to Christian run camps, youth groups etc.

 

 

 

(3) Good night :)

[underu2000]

From my experience that is how I feel. How ever since I am in highschool and the majority of this experience has been dealing with zealous immature teenagers, I will admit that it could be due to immaturity and that if you looked at an older age group the percentages would be reversed. But as I said I am dealing with my experience, and this is what I have experienced.

 

Oh, if you have idiots in your school hollering Christianity at you, I won't blame you. But it doesn't mean all Christians are like that. The ones that get on your throat just don't respect other people, it's not a Christian thing.

 

 

 

 

(1) I'm getting at the fact that God isn't fair on everyone, which the Bible says is otherwise, I'll say it again. A baby is born into poverty didn't chose to, therefore he should feel unfairness to the baby born into a wealthy familly.

 

God wouldn't willingly hurt people. It's people hurting people. One of Jesus' preachings said that if you hold strong against oppression, you'll be blessed. For everything they experience in life, they'll be blessed for after they die. Once again, this won't seem appealing for non-believers, but Christians hold this as a great reason to withstand persecution.

 

 

 

(2) I didn't do anything wrong to Jesus, IMO his a nice guy, you can say he died for my sins so be it, I never heart him in any way. Although I Know SOME Christians would say I was the one who put him on that cross.

 

By saying you did nothing to Jesus, you say you never sinned. For every sin you do, it's another blow to God and Jesus (I'm not perfect myself, if I'm giving that impression). And I would be one of those Christians who would say that you are part of the reason he's on that cross, along with the rest of humanity.

 

 

 

(

3) hey, I'm thankful for what I got, but that's due to my parents working their arse off to get me here not a man who died 2000 years ago. The babies I'm talking about are the ones born to die, if you must. They have 0 chance at life.

 

I'm sure your parents wouldn't get very far if they were in the position of the people who starve and die in the rainforests, or wherever else poverty strikes. It's not just what you gain, remember that even the very basic circumstances are not to be taken granted.

 

Everyone is born to die, not just those kids. The true pity is that those kids never got to experience life, along with not knowing Jesus. Once again, the bible doesn't say what happens to such kids, but we can assume safely they'll have a better afterlife than life.

 

 

 

(4) I agree people doing things they like together isn't bad, it's when they try to force me to do those things, that's bad.

 

Oh, that's always bad. Christianity isn't about forcing anybody to do anything, so I agree with you there.

 

 

 

(5) The Bible says 'those who believe shall not perish, but have eternal life' Therefore those that don't , don't simple as. And the thing that you say about hearing and then not believing is somewhat blackmailing, i.e. I told you to believe if you don't your going to hell. Well sorry I just don't understand!

 

That's like saying that the Judicial system is blackmailing criminals; "don't kill anyone or you go to jail" doesn't verge on blackmail. And what you must understand is everyone has eternal life, either heaven or hell. And yes, if you hear and don't believe you go to hell.

 

 

 

Oh, Good night! Can't stay on much longer myself.

[StrOwez]

[hide]

 

the problems I have with Christianity, these problems stop me believing it. It's different to Christianity having issues with me as I'm not the one trying to get people to follow my moral values if such.

 

 

 

 

keep it to your self? because there *was* no disscussion..you came in here telling us your lifes problems....

 

 

 

and that second part of what you said..."I'm not the one...."

 

maybe you are...as you feel the need to come here and tell us all your problems...in the hopes that someone will believe you and follow you.

 

 

 

and going into great detail about what you dont like about us...

 

thats why religion is based totally on the F Word......faith...

 

and when you try to target us...please be more specific on who your talking about...

 

the pastors on TV in the mornings...is total crap...and not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian...

 

 

 

LET THE FLAMES commence...

[/hide] Please read the whole topic, not just the title. Maybe then you'll have more compassion on your fellow brother.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

But can you really blame someone who wants to share with others the greatest thing he's ever found?

 

 

 

This is not a matter of "Hey son/daughter check out this cool thing I found."

 

 

 

This is a matter of "Hey son/daughter check out this cool thing I found. I want you to destroy yours and use mine instead."

[StrOwez]

[hide](1)

 

God wouldn't willingly hurt people. It's people hurting people. One of Jesus' preachings said that if you hold strong against oppression, you'll be blessed. For everything they experience in life, they'll be blessed for after they die. Once again, this won't seem appealing for non-believers, but Christians hold this as a great reason to withstand persecution.

 

 

 

(2)

 

By saying you did nothing to Jesus, you say you never sinned. For every sin you do, it's another blow to God and Jesus (I'm not perfect myself, if I'm giving that impression). And I would be one of those Christians who would say that you are part of the reason he's on that cross, along with the rest of humanity.

 

 

 

(3)

 

I'm sure your parents wouldn't get very far if they were in the position of the people who starve and die in the rainforests, or wherever else poverty strikes. It's not just what you gain, remember that even the very basic circumstances are not to be taken granted.

 

Everyone is born to die, not just those kids. The true pity is that those kids never got to experience life, along with not knowing Jesus. Once again, the bible doesn't say what happens to such kids, but we can assume safely they'll have a better afterlife than life.

 

 

 

(4)

 

That's like saying that the Judicial system is blackmailing criminals; "don't kill anyone or you go to jail" doesn't verge on blackmail. And what you must understand is everyone has eternal life, either heaven or hell. And yes, if you hear and don't believe you go to hell.

 

 

 

Oh, Good night! Can't stay on much longer myself.[/hide]

 

 

 

(1) Your statement there is mainly based on faith, and I can't really argue with faith, even if I produce you good arguments against it as I already have you would still think otherwise.

 

 

 

(2) I did nothing to Jesus! I was born 16 years ago he was 2000, however nonetheless I 100% understand where your coming from. Again its down to faith, in that Jesus really did die for my sins.

 

 

 

(3) Exactly! They wouldn't so they had a better chance at life, whereas the guys in born in a famine country such as Sudan don't.

 

 

 

(4) Yet, the jail is visible whilst God isn't.

 

 

 

(5) Good night :)