Problems with Runescape: The triangle

[Myweponsg00d]

The Truth about the Triangle

 

 

Image copyright Jagex Ltd

 

 

 

Introduction:

 

The goal of a great combat system in RPG games is simple. Each class of combatants should have a set of advantages and a set of disadvantages. These "pros" and "cons" should exist in each class, so that there should be a legitimate choice that needs to be made when deciding which class you should use for PvP combat. However, in our game today, the choice has become somewhat obvious for many players: magic, melee, or most favorable these days is the mage-melee hybrid. I know, I know, many of you still love to range, and I share the love with you. The update to crossbows has brought ranging closer than ever to being a really good choice for PvP combat, but it is still not quite there for a multitude of reasons. The goal of this article is to expose the flaw in our combat triangle: neglect of offensive balance in the cross-class hybrids.

 

 

 

Part I- Pure Classes

 

The goal of this section is to prove that each class, fighting with its class-specific armor and class-specific weapons should cancel each other out. That is, to say, that no class should have an obvious choice for PvP, and the triangle is preserved.

 

 

 

The Meleer:

 

 

The classic warrior. I should note right now a couple of things. Firstly, the Zamorak book: the objective of this article is to demonstrate effects that span across cross-class combinations. The book gives no negative defense, and equal bonus to all offense. Therefore it is most appropriate for our experiment. Secondly, no ring: I do not have each of the rings necessary for each class, also there are debates of warrior vs berserker ring.

 

 

 

Now that that is out of the way, lets take a look at the picture. It is clear that the warrior has Slash as the highest bonus. No brainer. What about his defenses? He is weakest to Magic attack, and strong against Ranged attack. This is how the triangle is meant to work.

 

 

 

The Ranger:

 

 

Here again is a completely expected case. Meleers win against Rangers, Rangers win vs Mages, and Mages win vs Meleers (thats in the next part). So far it seems like two parts of our triangle have been fulfilled, since our ranger has high ranged attack (of course), and has low Melee defense but high Magic defense. Next.

 

 

 

The Mage:

 

 

Here is the last part of our triangle. The Mage again, like the rest of our pure classes, has very high attack in his respective class. Lets check the defenses now. HORRIBLE ranged protection, which is completely expected since he is weak vs ranged. But his melee defense...isn't too thrilling either, about the same as our Ranger. So what happened here? Well, Magic comes with binding spells, of course! The meleer essentially cannot even HIT the Mage if he is bound or frozen, so the Mage gains a near infinite defense against melee and therefore wins. Next section.

 

 

 

Part II- The Hybrids:

 

In this section, our pure classes will be breaking out of their shells and using ONLY A CROSS-CLASS WEAPON. This is by far the simplest way to create a hybrid class. If you wanted to change some armor around as well, the combinations could of course become even stronger. However, looking at the simplest conditions of cross-class capability will give us the information we need, without adding an additional factor of complication by changing the armor, because some classes do not even need to change any armor to overcome cross-class boundaries!

 

 

 

Also, in this particular investigation, I am only investigating the result of a particular class switching to combat the class they are weakest against: I will explain this more in detail as we continue, since my argument will solidify as I reveal the evidence.

 

The Meleer (fighting with a bow):

 

 

This probably looks stupid to you (as well it should). Who is this person trying to fight? If he is fighting a mage, he is definitely bound to fail. He has a poor ranged attack bonus (basically half that of our pure mage) and his magic defense bonus is still just as bad as it was before. This would give our pure meleer an edge that he didn't have before, but he still is not EFFECTIVE against Magic.

 

 

 

It should also be noted that, when the Melee class switches his weapon to Ranged, he loses the ability to attack with any other style. Well, he could try to cast some spells, but his chance of success is embarrassingly low.

 

 

 

The Ranger (casting magic):

 

 

This guy is interesting. As you can see, he actually goes slightly positive in Magic attack. So why isn't this guy the problem with our triangle? The only thing this man can do, without switching weapons, is cast Magic (unless you want to account for the embarassingly small Melee bonus on the staff) Also, if you compare this hybrid with our next example, you will see that the Ranger who casts is completely inferior.

 

 

 

The Mage (who can melee):

 

 

Here lies the root of all of our problems. At first, it may seem OK, since his ranged defense is incredibly low, but allow me to explain. His melee attack power is IDENTICAL to that of a melee pure class. Also, this mage-melee hybrid can go back to casting spells WITHOUT the need of a staff. His Magic attack is still quite high, so putting this against the tiny Magic defense of the Meleer results in devastation. PLUS, in my experiences, Magic attack bonus does not need to be very high at all to cause havoc on melee armor.

 

 

 

This example is not a giant problem, but lets look at what happens when you add a simple chestpiece to the above equipment:

 

 

Outstanding. A warrior who is very tough against pure melee attacks, notably strong against ranged attacks, and mildly resistant even to Magic. This guy can cast quite effectively against melee, and still has what it takes to lay the smack-down on Rangers.

 

 

 

Conclusion: (just read this if you are too lazy to read everything)

 

Let's recap.

 

 

 

If you fight as a pure Melee class, and a Mage comes along, the best thing to do (by only switching a weapon) is to take out a bow. However, there is a significant loss in Ranged attack when you transition from a whip to a bow. AND you lose the ability to fight with Melee if a Ranger were to come along immediately after: you'd need to switch weapons. Overall, by trying to combat the class that you are weak to, you lose no defenses, but cannot damage the Mage as well as a Ranger could.

 

 

 

If you fight pure Ranged, and a Melee class comes along, you can try switching to Magic. You will be able to get some spells off, but again you ultimately do not have as much power vs him as a Mage would. Again, Rangers can no longer Range when they take out a staff, which is necessary to overcome the negative Magic bonus. Overall, by switching to Magic when you are a Ranger, you lose no defenses, but cannot damage the Meleer as well as a Mage could.

 

 

 

If you fight pure Magic, and a Ranger comes along, taking out a whip and ONLY A WHIP will allow you to deal identical damage to the Ranger that a Melee class could deal to the Ranger. Again no defenses are gained or lost, but you gain the ability to deal damage to YOUR enemy class that is identical to the damage that would be dealt by them to THEIR enemy class. You also retain a significant Magic attack bonus, AND you do not need to change weapons in order to return to your "original" class attack

 

 

 

So what is to be done about this? Not sure. Is it a problem? Yes There is no triangle in the normal sense of the word. The clear choice in Runescape is to be a Mage, because as I have proven, it is the easiest class to overcome the class disadvantages in (they also have the unbalanced advantage of not requiring a weapon in order to attack).

 

 

 

Could this be good for the game? OF COURSE. There is no need to have a completely balanced triangle. The game is, of course, called RUNEscape, so maybe it is fitting that Magic is the best style to use in combat. However, if Jagex wants the triangle to be balanced, it definitely isn't at this time. If players THINK they are playing a game where each of the three classes is an equally good choice to pick, then they are wrong and have been mislead.

 

 

 

Solutions? Maybe we need robes to have a negative Melee bonus. Maybe the Melee armor should come with Melee attack bonuses and not have it completely centralized in the weapon. I don't particularly know what should be done, if anything. I didn't make the game, I just criticize it. :wink:

[Slayr]

Wow

 

Thorough and you made good points :D

[bedman]

VERY good points. Nicely put. Couldn't have said it better

 

 

 

BUT...

 

 

 

I fear you posted this at the wrong moment. All this problems seem so tiny against the major updates of today. It even makes me a bit nostalgic: "look how we were complaining about the triangle, not knowing about the forthcoming devastating updates that would kill the game".

 

(slighly exagerating about "killing the game", but hey :D).

 

 

 

Anyway, atm is isnt a problem since all people are fighting as a clan in bounty hunter. Staking is dead too. So yeah, the only thing left is castle wars (and of course the PRINCIPLE that it shouldnt be like that).

[Myweponsg00d]

VERY good points. Nicely put. Couldn't have said it better

 

 

 

BUT...

 

 

 

I fear you posted this at the wrong moment. All this problems seem so tiny against the major updates of today. It even makes me a bit nostalgic: "look how we were complaining about the triangle, not knowing about the forthcoming devastating updates that would kill the game".

 

(slighly exagerating about "killing the game", but hey :D).

 

 

 

Anyway, atm is isnt a problem since all people are fighting as a clan in bounty hunter. Staking is dead too. So yeah, the only thing left is castle wars (and of course the PRINCIPLE that it shouldnt be like that).

 

 

 

Actually, this is more important now than ever. With the focus on the new PvP systems, we should now be looking to FIX our PvP gameplay in itself, since we have all these fancy new features. Also, class distinctions play a huge role in duel tournaments that have all combat styles involved. It is quite monotonous to always see barrage + range/melee win every tournament. There should be more class distinction.

[Slick_cat]

 

Actually, this is more important now than ever. With the focus on the new PvP systems, we should now be looking to FIX our PvP gameplay in itself, since we have all these fancy new features. Also, class distinctions play a huge role in duel tournaments that have all combat styles involved. It is quite monotonous to always see barrage + range/melee win every tournament. There should be more class distinction.

 

 

 

Very High level Prayer (80 prayer to use + quest) that makes you immune to freezing/binding spells.

 

 

 

Very high level potions that (90 herblore to make) make you immune to freezing/binding spells.

 

 

 

Rare ring of free movement - more difficult to get than seer/warrior/berserker ring.

 

 

 

Any and all of these would hose mage hybrids appropriately.

[Myweponsg00d]

I don't think that would work. That would give melee an added edge over Mages. What we need is some way for Mages to not have as much melee power. The magic itself is fine.

[MrBowser]

Mages have no right to complain- they have the ability to turn us into icicles. That makes up for anything else.

[Toxicologist]

Mages have no right to complain- they have the ability to turn us into icicles. That makes up for anything else.

 

 

 

Your point? You do realise this topic is about exactly that: how mages can overcome the combat triangle more easily than the other classes?

[BBC3]

Mages have no right to complain- they have the ability to turn us into icicles. That makes up for anything else.

 

 

 

Your point? You do realise this topic is about exactly that: how mages can overcome the combat triangle more easily than the other classes?

 

 

 

give him a break lol hes probably dyslexic and didnt read a single thing anyway

[Sire_Mark_II]

Mages have no right to complain- they have the ability to turn us into icicles. That makes up for anything else.

 

 

 

Your point? You do realise this topic is about exactly that: how mages can overcome the combat triangle more easily than the other classes?

 

 

 

give him a break lol hes probably dyslexic and didnt read a single thing anyway

 

 

 

 

 

Heh, that tickled. Anyway, great original post 'cept that ya forgot to offer some remedy ideas of yer own. Still, a billion times better than just complaining about something without putting any thought into it (The numerous threads about the new updates would be a perfect example of thoughtless whining) and I heartily agree with you. It's always bugged me that warriors get almost no offensive benefit from wearing the armor specific to their class, as mages and rangers do. It makes sense from a realistic standpoint, and in fact armor would generally take away from a warrior's ability to move and attack effectively, but who cares about realism this is a game and the mechanics need to be balanced.

 

 

 

Presumably adding bonuses to melee armor would overpower the warrior class, and I think the main problem is Jagex is fearful that backtracking and reducing weapon stats to be made up for with armor bonuses would cause players to complain more. Personally I think armor based bonuses would be the perfect solution in this particular case, and would even allow for more options for new features to the warrior class. So if we're lucky the gripers will all quit in the next few weeks and with solid suggestions becoming the new norm a change like this may be possible.

 

 

 

One can hope anyway. :pray:

[trojen100]

well i found an important discovery lol well this is what i think

 

 

 

melee armour lowers mage and range att

 

 

 

range armour only lowers mage (exeption of amerdyle armour)

 

 

 

same with mage armour it only lower range i think so...

 

 

 

make mage armour lower melee stats

 

 

 

and same with range