Real World Trading: Reasonable or not?

[Zierro]

People say "money is the root of all evil" which imo is more true than RWTing being the root of all evil in rs, yet money remains in the world today because if a problem arises with money as a reason for that problem...we take care of the problem, not remove all money so there's no motive for that problem to occur. If jagex would've focused as much on taking care of bots as they did getting rid of RWTing then I guarantee a lot more players would be happier with them, the game, and more players would be playing the game.

 

 

 

It's not money. It's greed. Back before money existed, people still killed each other over possessions quite often. Get rid of money, and we'll still have people fighting over land and possessions. Get rid of RWT, and bots are gone.

 

 

 

Using the same type of logic you are using, I could just say there is nothing wrong with giving a weapon to a child. The act of giving him the weapon doesn't cause harm - the child beating other children with the weapons is at fault.

 

 

 

~Real world trading is reasonable because it in itself doesn't affect any gameplay or any players within the game, nor does it harm JaGex as a company in any way.

 

~ Credit card fraud is not reasonable because it harms JaGex as a company.

 

~ Botting/macroing is not reasonable because it affects the gameplay in a very negative way for most players.

 

 

 

~Giving a child a knife is reasonable because it in itself doesn't harm anyone in any way.

 

~A child hurting other children with a knife is not reasonable because it causes harm to the victim.

 

 

 

The world would be a very strange place if everyone ignored the transitive property.

[Bloodkay]

Okay, I totally understand you now Madman. Sorry I wasn't getting it.

 

 

 

But I still can't think that buying gold as good. It amounts to players being able to train their buy-able skills a lot faster than someone who can't buying gold, and therefor must make their money in-game slower than everyone else.

 

 

 

A few buy-able skills and items can give advantages, and those advantages could prove to devalue the game for them. Like players buying high-end armor and weapons, which give them immediate advantages over other players who don't buy gold.

[Madmanpur3]

Using the same type of logic you are using, I could just say there is nothing wrong with giving a weapon to a child. The act of giving him the weapon doesn't cause harm - the child beating other children with the weapons is at fault.

 

 

 

~Real world trading is reasonable because it in itself doesn't affect any gameplay or any players within the game, nor does it harm JaGex as a company in any way.

 

~ Credit card fraud is not reasonable because it harms JaGex as a company.

 

~ Botting/macroing is not reasonable because it affects the gameplay in a very negative way for most players.

 

 

 

~Giving a child a knife is reasonable because it in itself doesn't harm anyone in any way.

 

~A child hurting other children with a knife is not reasonable because it causes harm to the victim.

 

 

 

The world would be a very strange place if everyone ignored the transitive property.

 

 

 

Giving a weapon to a child doesn't harm anyone in any way, but that's not a very similar example to real world trading because with real world trading, after a player purchases 1 million gp they can't really go and kill someone with that 1 million gp...no harm can ever be caused to any aspect of the game or it's players by any form of real world trading - they have no more potential to cause harm as well. With your example, harm can be caused in many aspects of giving a weapon to a child. Also, one could argue that giving a weapon to a child could cause emotional/mental damage because that kid will grow up with the understanding that weapons are ok to play with and will be very confused the day cops are arresting him because he brought an AK-47 to the airport. It's not like when someone real world trades they are giving the other player a macroing program along with it.

 

 

 

But I still can't think that buying gold as good. It amounts to players being able to train their buy-able skills a lot faster than someone who can't buying gold, and therefor must make their money in-game slower than everyone else.

 

 

 

A few buy-able skills and items can give advantages, and those advantages could prove to devalue the game for them. Like players buying high-end armor and weapons, which give them immediate advantages over other players who don't buy gold.

 

 

 

I am not a fan of the whole 'devaluing achievements' argument mainly because that cannot be measured in any way other than opinion. As for advantages, I'd say that the person playing 10 hours a day has an immediate advantage over the person playing 10 hours a week.

[amitoz]

Should a person who sits at home all day slaving away for 85 slayer so he can finally get his first whip by 'truly earning' it really be more proud of himself than a person who goes to school, is very involved in sports and the community, goes home to do some chores then only has a half hour max to play runescape so he decides to buy a whip via rwt since otherwise he'd be waiting a year...?

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

Because he chose to put in honest effort into the game. That does not make him a no lifer though, he may simply have a lot of time on his hands despite all he does with friends/family/work/chores, etc...

 

 

 

Buying Gold is just an easy way out of having to spend more time on the game.

 

Which is what devalues it

 

 

 

Which is why it HAD to happen.

 

Although I was a decent PKer back in the day, those days are gone and past, it had to ultimately happen. Imagine Jagex closing down because they were sued by 15 different countries for credit fraud. Would you prefer that instead?

 

 

 

I sometimes still go to that old wildy line and stare hours on end, missing the old graphics and endless hours of fun I had there, that pure ecstacy in which I lived.. But now it's gone.. But it had to happen.

[Mystik01]

 

P.S. - Until somebody can prove that botting/macroing = real world trading, I'm going to just ignore any claims that real world trading is bad because of all the bots.

 

 

 

 

Okay, so are you ignoring all my posts on this matter? I'm not saying that Botting = RWTing, but just the opposite, that RWT = Botting. It's because MOST (not all) of the RWTer's collected their gold from resource-gathering Bots. How can you say the two are not interconnected?

 

Because often, there was an actual human worker behind the bot, I'd think.

 

 

 

 

 

Fact... with the erradication of most RWT'ing, there has been a stoppage of the use of botting and macroing.

 

 

 

The last comment you made which I quoted is an assumption you made not based off anything other than what you think.

 

 

 

There is a definite corelation with botting and RWT.

[Zierro]

There is a definite corelation with botting and RWT.

 

 

 

Exactly, it's cause and effect.

 

 

 

*Breaking RWT rules you agreed to --> Floods game with bots

 

 

 

*Putting nails in the middle of a road --> Flat tire

 

 

 

*Leaving the cash register open and unattended --> Stolen money

 

 

 

*Blocking a fire exit --> Fire happens and no one can get out

 

 

 

*Giving child a weapon --> Child endangers other children

 

 

 

If you give a knife to a little kid, you're going to get in a lot of trouble. Not because of the fact that you gave it to him, but because of the fact that it will lead into more hazardous occurrences.

 

 

 

That being said, rules are there for a reason. There's a reason you will get in trouble for all of those things I listed. And that reason is the effect those actions cause.

[Madmanpur3]

I am not saying that botting and real world trading are not linked, I am saying they are not linked to the point where you can't have one without the other...which is why I still feel that real world trading was not a bad thing.

 

 

 

This is what I said on another thread but pertains to this as well:

 

If you asked me "would you rather have real world trading, or a 30k trade limit?" I would have to say real world trading, and it would also be my opinion that anyone who would rather have the 30k trade limit is ignorant and/or oblivious to logic in general. If the question were "would you rather have real world trading AND botting/macroing, or a 30k trade limit?" my answer would be the limit.

 

 

 

What it all boils down to tho is botting and macroing, the real problems. Real world trading was never a problem in the game or for the game, it was only a partial (majority) source to the problem but not the actual problem. But as they say, the most efficient way to take care of a problem is to take out its source, so they did just that.

 

 

 

Limiting how we can transfer wealth via limiting trade and removing other sources of transferring (wild, staking, dropping) they took care of the problem in a way that they knew would work 95%+ efficiently. They could've spent more time coming up with a possible better solution that would've left more players happy/satisfied with them, but they would've been less certain on it's effectiveness until they were able to monitor it for a while...so between those two options, they took the safer one which was quicker and then decided to then focus more on how they could go about 'rebuilding' the game.

 

 

 

I hold nothing against real world traders and I hold nothing against JaGex for how they went about fixing their problems.

[deathdude777]

To those who say that buying gold is the same as paying membership-

 

 

 

I believe these are two very different things, for one thing, most people can afford membership however alot of people can't afford to spend 100 dollars for an ags. I would litterally quit(maybe not permanantly) if I earned a bgs by runecrafting for 6 months, and then saw someone brag about how their parents bout them a ags for their birthday. This game has one thing about alot of other games don't have-you all are the same. Donald Trump doesn't have anymore of an advantage than I do(except maybe a better isp).

 

 

 

True, some people may say that they don't care if someone is buying stuff with real money that they worked very hard for, but I DO. This whole game revolves around showing off, thats why its multi-player everywhere. If it wasn't, then only certain areas would be multi-player, while places like lumbridge would be singleplayer. Anyway, thats just what I think.

[Iamdan]

 

They didn't effect the game? Then, after the RWT updates, why have all the bots disappeared? In Runescape, we took out RWT which took out bots. This might not hold true in some other games, but for Runescape, RWT and bots go hand in hand. If you don't believe me, go behind Varrock castle and discover that bots are extremely scarce ever since the RWT updates. It's like saying a drug seller and drug buyer aren't intertwined nor responsible for the existence of the other party.

 

 

 

Actually, removing practical RWT removed the gold farmers, who were people not macros. You aren't going to be able to recognize a bot unless you have a lot of experience with them, (as in being in the cheating community for years, and writing your own macros.) and even then they can be difficult to spot.

 

 

 

Personally I don't see what's wrong with real world trading. If somebody wants to spend hours and hours getting their money then good for you. If somebody wants to go out instead and then buy their money, that's fine by me.

 

 

 

The people who buy don't have to do something they would rather not do, and the people who sell make a nice profit. I only made a little over a grand selling gold and scripts, but I know someone who is having his collage paid for by rwt and selling auths for his bot.

 

 

 

I wouldn't buy gold because I barely play the game anyway, but people who are saying "I slaved away for x hours, if you buy it then it's not achievement." etc, need to get off their high horse. You aren't better than people who buy/sell gold, you just have more spare time than them. If you would rather play the game for 10 hours rather than work at mcdonalds for 3 and then go to a party, then congratulations hero, but you aren't better than anyone else.

[Alg]

 

Fact... with the erradication of most RWT'ing, there has been a stoppage of the use of botting and macroing.

 

 

 

The last comment you made which I quoted is an assumption you made not based off anything other than what you think.

 

 

 

There is a definite corelation with botting and RWT.

 

Actually, it's not just me that 'thinks' that there were humans behind it... Many players have spoken to, or have been spoken to by a 'bot', and I'm pretty sure there was a post on the Runescape website about it... Which I'll post if I find.

 

 

 

Bots and botting were not just used to harvest money to sell. It still exists, and is used by players who want to gain an edge over others, which is what it was intended for. They may have been used for it, and could probably be compared to the idea that owning a gun causes crime.

 

 

 

Botting may have some relation to RWT, though there is not always a direct correlation. If you'll read the thread thoroughly before posting, Madmanpur3 explains it many times.

[Zierro]

Replace the word "bots" with "goldfarmers". It doesn't make a difference. They were still ruining the game on a larger scale than some of you might think.

[Alg]

Replace the word "bots" with "goldfarmers". It doesn't make a difference. They were still ruining the game on a larger scale than some of you might think.

 

Exactly.

 

I can't remember a time in all my time in the game that there was an update as extreme as the ones of 12/10 and so on. They just don't resort to something like that on a whim.

[chi13]

I see no problem with the trade system. You can't make an unbalanced trade, which allows for no scams and no cash/item transfers. The G.E. allows for all of Runescape to buy and sell their items without hassle. Prices are based solely on supply and demand with a little influence from Jagex so that they don't go too high or too low or that people abuse the system.

 

 

 

Really now, the only people who should be complaining are merchants, scammers and RWTer's. No honest player has a real need for unbalanced trade, except the occasional birthday present or donation.

 

 

 

"All for the greater good."

 

 

 

:roll: Lumping merchants in with rwt and account scammers? Obviously the doochebags didn't suffer from these updates. Judging by your posts they're thriving! :D

[Bloodkay]

I see no problem with the trade system. You can't make an unbalanced trade, which allows for no scams and no cash/item transfers. The G.E. allows for all of Runescape to buy and sell their items without hassle. Prices are based solely on supply and demand with a little influence from Jagex so that they don't go too high or too low or that people abuse the system.

 

 

 

Really now, the only people who should be complaining are merchants, scammers and RWTer's. No honest player has a real need for unbalanced trade, except the occasional birthday present or donation.

 

 

 

"All for the greater good."

 

 

 

:roll: Lumping merchants in with rwt and account scammers? Obviously the doochebags didn't suffer from these updates. Judging by your posts they're thriving! :D

 

 

 

I already posted that I didn't mean it like that, so...

 

Re-read my posts and tell me why you think they're thriving because of my posts? =\

[Fingon]

Why would people spend hours and hours working on something when they could spend $20 and have it.

 

If yod do that inflation would probably skyrocket and all normal players would be [bleep]ed..