Real World Trading: Reasonable or not?

[HistoriK]

Jagex took the lazy route on this entire problem. RWT was not destroying Runescape, botting was, which tends to have a strong relationship with RWT. Due to the fact that GP has a real life value, Jagex faced a huge resistance when trying to stop people from autoing on Runescape. They had to take away the incentive from the botters for a quick and easy fix. There were many alternative options, but this was the easiest and cheapest way to combat the problem.

 

 

 

The result from this was detrimental for gameplay. Nearly all complex areas of the game were harmed, areas that separated Runescape from other MMORPG's. This was an update that took away the free market of the game and gave complete price control to Jagex on all items. It was a step backwards as far as gaming goes, one which made Runescape seem a lot more like a single player game than an online multiplayer world.

 

 

 

However, did Jagex really think RWTing was going to stop? There are people out there willing to dish out TONS of money for gold in Runescape. So long as there is wealth transfer between players (which now takes place at the BH, and to a much lesser extent, the GE), there will be people selling gold, period. Jagex probably knew this at the time though, and considering the company's achievements, I think it's their duty to see that some form of RWT is necessary for the success of the game.

 

 

 

The fact is, some players will simply move onto another game if they aren't able to RWT. These players are 99% of the time members on AT LEAST one account, and collectively the loss of revenue from every RWT'er would be very significant. This update crippled most of the asian companies, but independent sellers are still able to transact with buyers.

 

 

 

And just remember, not every RWT'er is a gold farmer / autoer / scammer. There are sellers out there who are simply providing a service to people, and buy their gold from legit players who simply need the money. The buyers tend to be working people who do not have the excessive amounts of free time required to accumulate the items they desire, but who are we to say they should be restricted from spending their hard earned money to make up for their lack of spare time? After all, time is money.

[anim7]

Jagex took the lazy route on this entire problem. RWT was not destroying Runescape, botting was, which tends to have a strong relationship with RWT. Due to the fact that GP has a real life value, Jagex faced a huge resistance when trying to stop people from autoing on Runescape. They had to take away the incentive from the botters for a quick and easy fix. There were many alternative options, but this was the easiest and cheapest way to combat the problem.

 

 

 

 

Could you kindly explain the alternative options?

[Madmanpur3]

Yes botting and macroing were closely linked to real world trading, but that does not mean you can classify them together. Botting/macroing was bad for the game, real world trading was not. That's like saying if we want to put an end to all speeding, we should just eliminate time because time is the main reason people speed (well lack of time). While we're at it, let's get rid of all the money in the world since money is the reason people rob banks.

 

 

 

JaGex saw macroing/botting as a problem, so they chose to eliminate RWT - which in my opinion was not the way to go about handling it.

[anim7]

Yes botting and macroing were closely linked to real world trading, but that does not mean you can classify them together. Botting/macroing was bad for the game, real world trading was not. That's like saying if we want to put an end to all speeding, we should just eliminate time because time is the main reason people speed (well lack of time). While we're at it, let's get rid of all the money in the world since money is the reason people rob banks.

 

 

 

JaGex saw macroing/botting as a problem, so they chose to eliminate RWT - which in my opinion was not the way to go about handling it.

 

 

 

 

 

What were the options besides eliminating RWT?

 

 

 

And I like your analogies...they work, but are too exaggerated. Instead of ending time, how about no more cars. Sure it is hefty blow, but think of all the teenagers who wont die in a car crash. And the analogy would work only when the problem is very serious. Botters were a serious problem. People could mine ess for good profit. Yews were over crowded. Gathering raw materials was a waste since they were nearly worthless.

[HistoriK]

Jagex took the lazy route on this entire problem. RWT was not destroying Runescape, botting was, which tends to have a strong relationship with RWT. Due to the fact that GP has a real life value, Jagex faced a huge resistance when trying to stop people from autoing on Runescape. They had to take away the incentive from the botters for a quick and easy fix. There were many alternative options, but this was the easiest and cheapest way to combat the problem.

 

 

 

 

Could you kindly explain the alternative options?

 

 

 

Yeah, there's a few alternatives that would have a major impact on macroing. Make harvesting resources more complex. Randoms are one thing, but to make a skill like Woodcutting / Mining more complex than simply clicking on an image would make writing macros much more complicated. The gameplay couldn't hurt from it either, these skills are outdated and tedious.

 

 

 

Another option would be to invest more time and effort into detecting bots. At some points in time, Jagex has been extremely efficient in banning auto'ers. This is why there were seeming "waves" of autoing; when Jagex was on top of them, they were far less common.

 

 

 

Heck, even having trade restrictions on characters which have been recently created (maybe characters under 1 month old / logged in for under 24 hours total time) could vastly reduce autoing. It would take a combination of things, but at least it would not decrease quality of gameplay as significantly.

 

 

 

If anyone got the idea that I believe the updates were a good idea, that's not what I meant to say. I said they were the shortcut, and shortcuts bite you in the behind.

[anim7]

Jagex took the lazy route on this entire problem. RWT was not destroying Runescape, botting was, which tends to have a strong relationship with RWT. Due to the fact that GP has a real life value, Jagex faced a huge resistance when trying to stop people from autoing on Runescape. They had to take away the incentive from the botters for a quick and easy fix. There were many alternative options, but this was the easiest and cheapest way to combat the problem.

 

 

 

 

Could you kindly explain the alternative options?

 

 

 

Yeah, there's a few alternatives that would have a major impact on macroing. Make harvesting resources more complex. Randoms are one thing, but to make a skill like Woodcutting / Mining more complex than simply clicking on an image would make writing macros much more complicated. The gameplay couldn't hurt from it either, these skills are outdated and tedious.

 

 

 

Another option would be to invest more time and effort into detecting bots. At some points in time, Jagex has been extremely efficient in banning auto'ers. This is why there were seeming "waves" of autoing; when Jagex was on top of them, they were far less common.

 

 

 

Heck, even having trade restrictions on characters which have been recently created (maybe characters under 1 month old / logged in for under 24 hours total time) could vastly reduce autoing. It would take a combination of things, but at least it would not decrease quality of gameplay as significantly.

 

 

 

If anyone got the idea that I believe the updates were a good idea, that's not what I meant to say. I said they were the shortcut, and shortcuts bite you in the behind.

 

 

 

 

 

The first one might not be that popular. It is kinda like saying, "lets not click the monster to kill it...lets make it so that you have to move your mouse to simulate an actual sword swipe." I would not mind, but there are many players who would...and it'd create a vast schism.

 

 

 

Second, jagex did ban autoers, but account creation is so easy that the effects were negated. Simply put, it didnt work. Like putting a bandaid to stop a dam from breaking. Might fix it for a day or two, but cant handle the pressure.

 

 

 

I dont quite understand the third one, so I am not going to comment on it.

 

 

 

We seem to be on the same page, but at the same time, we have different viewpoints. I dont know if I should embrace you or argue with you. :)

[failbait]

If you look at Runescape's competition, the majority of them allow RWT and tbh I think Rs could make alot of money from it. Why would people spend hours and hours working on something when they could spend $20 and have it. Jagex would profit. They say they are trying to keep things fair, by eliminating RWT and virtually every other aspect of free will we had to share and give items between ourselves. But for what? There is still macroing, and there are still websites that have ways to RWT, it's just more difficult. What are they going to do next, eliminate trading all together? They've already put limits on the Grand Exchange, which started a few months back, and the limits of certain items have kept decreasing. Runescape is getting less and less player controlled as Jagex finds more and more ways to limit item trading. The only problem I have with RWT is how obsessed Jagex has become with trying to stop it.

[Alg]

Why would people spend hours and hours working on something when they could spend $20 and have it.

 

That is exactly the point. As fun as it may sound to have every aspect of the game at your fingertips, it isn't. We play games to play them, not to spend $20 and win.

 

 

 

I've owned an Action Replay system for some time now. I used it on a game (to get huge money, how fitting) and ended up hating it so much I restarted it yesterday... after not touching it in months.

[failbait]

We play games to play them, not to spend $20 and win.

 

 

 

 

But there is still RWT and probably always will be in some form. As much as i agree with you and see it as unfair, i don't see why Jagex doesn't embrace it as their own, rather than eliminate Pk, staking, free trade, etc..

[Alg]

We play games to play them, not to spend $20 and win.

 

 

 

 

But there is still RWT and probably always will be in some form. As much as i agree with you and see it as unfair, i don't see why Jagex doesn't embrace it as their own, rather than eliminate Pk, staking, free trade, etc..

 

I do remember reading something here about that. Jagex could sell gold for far cheaper than the RWTs ever could, but separate the high scores and set a limit for how much you could buy.

 

Legalized RWT could probably be integrated into the game, though that may be a topic for something else.

[Bloodkay]

 

But there is still RWT and probably always will be in some form. As much as i agree with you and see it as unfair, i don't see why Jagex doesn't embrace it as their own, rather than eliminate Pk, staking, free trade, etc..

 

 

 

Had they embraced it, they would still need to set limits on free trade and ways to item/money transfer. Why? Because other RWTer's would turn around and bight them in the [wagon] by selling gold a lot cheaper than the "official" gold you could buy. That's the only way they'd turn a profit from it; by being the only source to buy gold from.

[Madmanpur3]

Why would people spend hours and hours working on something when they could spend $20 and have it.

 

That is exactly the point. As fun as it may sound to have every aspect of the game at your fingertips, it isn't. We play games to play them, not to spend $20 and win.

 

Most people play games to have fun, and for some of those people it's more fun when you have more money...Real world trading allowed those players to have fun playing the same game we do, just in a different way and in my opinion nobody should feel negatively towards them for simply wanting to have fun, especially since they didn't affect the game in any way.

 

 

 

P.S. - I don't think JaGex selling the gold themselves would've been the best path either.

[Bloodkay]

Real world trading allowed those players to have fun playing the same game we do, just in a different way and in my opinion nobody should feel negatively towards them for simply wanting to have fun, especially since they didn't affect the game in any way.

 

 

 

We've been through this already. It DOES affect the game. It affects other players with the fact that that money is gained from Botting (I stated my thoughts about that in my earlier post) and when they buy money to have their own kind of fun, they're supporting RWTer's and therefor the Botting won't stop. Bots would keep on coming to make money for these "legit players" wanting to have "legit fun". Botting is DIRECTLY related to RWTing, you can't deny that, right? So if Botting devalued the game, then RWT certainly does, as it is the main reason why there was Bots.

 

 

 

I don't want people to not have fun, and I know many players have many different views on what's fun for them and not. But when their fun indirectly ruins mine (such as in this case), I'm prepared to say that RWTing is bad.

 

Because I know I'm certainly not alone in how I look at it.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

So if anyone can think of a reason as to why real world trading is/was bad other than "omg it devalues my achievement" I'd be glad to hear it and willing to accept that real world trading is a bad thing.

 

 

 

Here's a good reason - it's against the Terms and Conditions of the Jagex site. The countless hours you've spent playing the game, getting all of this stuff mean absolutely nothing when it doesn't belong to you in the first place.

 

 

 

Want more? Here's a laundry list.

 

 

 

* It makes legitimate, long time players extremely upset, which causes a mass exodus

 

* It makes it pointless to level skills except to wear cool stuff

 

* It makes the game a whole lot less fun

 

* If you're still playing, it makes the game a nightmare when you're trying to harvest goods [read]

 

* It *may* give Jagex profits for the first three months, but after that, you're looking at a ghost town of a game

 

 

 

If you do not offend someone when you say something, it cannot be considered offensive. Furthermore, there are many things that can be offensive to a particular player but not in the eyes of JaGex so it is allowed.

 

 

 

Bugs, some of them are not harmful to the game in my opinion and as long as every player is able to do the bug then it can't be considered an unfair advantage. But at the same time there are bugs where not everyone can do it (like the killing of other players in falador) and it is bugs like those that are not ok to use/abuse.

 

 

 

First line: By your logic, as long as someone of a certain ethnicity or someone of a certain wealth bracket is not in the room when I "insult" them, then there's no harm done. What a load o'bull. Generally, if you'd feel ashamed to say the exact same thing to a respected authority (i.e. grandparents), then it's offensive.

 

 

 

Second line: What bug is not harmful to the game? As a programmer, any bug, no matter how minor or benign it may seem from the end-user stand point, is always going to be perceived as "harmful". Doesn't matter if it means an extra Dragon Chainbody drop from the KQ or the Falador incident, or even something that's seriously benign as the lean-over-and-hover-glitch, it's still harmful, full stop.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's ok to real world trade, I realize it's against the rules. What I am saying is that those who did/do real world trade were not really doing anything harmful to the game or to the players of it (thus we should not go around hating them).

 

 

 

You contradict yourself in such a painful way. Again, by your logic, someone that breaks the rules of society, in turn, does not really harm society, and we should not hate them for their [non]-disruptive actions? Just sit back and think about that one for a few hours.

 

 

 

Adding on... RWT and macroing are inherently connected because without RWT, macroers couldnt exist and vice versa.

 

 

 

Not necessarily true. Macros were used to make mundane tasks simpler, such as mining, fishing, or woodcutting, and they were also used to gain an unfair advantage in RSC PKing (known as catching). RWTers exploited the usefulness of macroers, and as such, the two were intertwined.

 

 

 

I have a strong feeling that players who wouldn't RWT were using macros before RWTers were.

 

 

 

Jagex took the lazy route on this entire problem. RWT was not destroying Runescape, botting was, which tends to have a strong relationship with RWT. Due to the fact that GP has a real life value, Jagex faced a huge resistance when trying to stop people from autoing on Runescape. They had to take away the incentive from the botters for a quick and easy fix. There were many alternative options, but this was the easiest and cheapest way to combat the problem.

 

 

 

The result from this was detrimental for gameplay. Nearly all complex areas of the game were harmed, areas that separated Runescape from other MMORPG's. This was an update that took away the free market of the game and gave complete price control to Jagex on all items. It was a step backwards as far as gaming goes, one which made Runescape seem a lot more like a single player game than an online multiplayer world.

 

 

 

Okay, to begin with, if the following is your absolute best alternative option:

 

 

 

Make harvesting resources more complex. Randoms are one thing, but to make a skill like Woodcutting / Mining more complex than simply clicking on an image would make writing macros much more complicated.

 

 

 

...then you're thinking funny. Making resource gathering more complex is NOT the right way to go. It would take bots about 3 months to counter, and give many legitimate players a headache migraine migraine-on-crack. I'll address why it wasn't lazy later.

 

 

 

Next, I don't see how RuneScape seems more single-player from updates like the GE. Did you get every single item in your bank by yourself? Did you harvest every single raw item for you to level with? If not, then you're just talking nonsense here.

 

 

 

Also, Jagex doesn't really control the GE -- many people love to loathe them on that point. Consider that for a time, most *every* player gathered price information from Zybez (even RuneScript did in IRC). One could have inferred then that the maintainers at Zybez were controlling the economy, but no one ever did. Then Jagex comes along, does something pretty similar (with barriers to make RWT very hard through it), and everyone all of a sudden yells at Jagex? To be honest, I feel a lot more flexibility from the GE than I ever did -- if more people would just use the darn thing, people would come to accept it, grudgingly.

 

 

 

Now, as to why it wasn't lazy -- Jagex knows that there's no way to stop RWT 100%, so they went and mortally wounded the operations in their own game. They also chose the most effective method possible, from any standpoint -- they went for the jugular of RWT where they could control them best. It takes a lot of manpower, money, and time to ban 25-45,000 suspected RWT accounts and macroers, and by the time you finish with the first load, about 3 times more has already registered and is back in the swing of things.

 

 

 

Personally, cutting RWT off by retooling PvP, eliminating unbalanced trade, eliminating drop trades, and regulating item prices through the GE was a good move. If you don't think so, consider my reasons:

 

 

 

1) Reactive banning has a very benign effect. One bot banned, ten bots created, all under an hour.

 

2) IP banning has a very limited effect. One IP address banned, another one created, thank you very much DHCP.

 

3) Sending wave after wave of Jagex Moderators after bots strains resources; where one Mod could be working on a new and exciting update (such as GWD), they're instead out in the game, trying to bust bots.

 

4) Oh, that doesn't mean the Mods aren't getting paid, by the way. That's monetary resources being spent, too. And no new content was worked on today.

 

5) Hiring more staff to only deal with the bots isn't going to help much, either. It's just an exercise in futility on a much grander (and more expensive) scale.

 

 

 

I'll admit that the methods that Jagex employed were not 100% sure to get rid of RWT, and there are some [very small] loopholes being exploited [which the players who know how it happens need to speak up before another serious update hits] but by stark comparison of what the communities (and I mean all of them) have offered, 98% effectiveness is more acceptable than < 1%.

[Madmanpur3]

So if anyone can think of a reason as to why real world trading is/was bad other than "omg it devalues my achievement" I'd be glad to hear it and willing to accept that real world trading is a bad thing.

 

 

 

Here's a good reason - it's against the Terms and Conditions of the Jagex site. The countless hours you've spent playing the game, getting all of this stuff mean absolutely nothing when it doesn't belong to you in the first place.

 

 

 

Want more? Here's a laundry list.

 

 

 

* It makes legitimate, long time players extremely upset, which causes a mass exodus

 

* It makes it pointless to level skills except to wear cool stuff

 

* It makes the game a whole lot less fun

 

* If you're still playing, it makes the game a nightmare when you're trying to harvest goods [read]

 

* It *may* give Jagex profits for the first three months, but after that, you're looking at a ghost town of a game

 

 

 

* It makes legitimate, long time players extremely upset, only if they look at it as devaluing their achievements...but honestly if you can't even tell who's real world traded and not, it obviously does not affect the gameplay for you does it?

 

* Not sure how other people real world trading makes it pointless for you to level up your skills.

 

* It does not affect the game in any way as I've stated multiple times.

 

* I do not group botting/macroing with real world trading because they are 2 completely different things which should be dealt with separately.

 

 

 

Oh and if you feel so strongly about the terms and conditions on the site...it also says JaGex can ban any account for any reason whatsoever.

 

 

 

If you do not offend someone when you say something, it cannot be considered offensive. Furthermore, there are many things that can be offensive to a particular player but not in the eyes of JaGex so it is allowed.

 

 

 

Bugs, some of them are not harmful to the game in my opinion and as long as every player is able to do the bug then it can't be considered an unfair advantage. But at the same time there are bugs where not everyone can do it (like the killing of other players in falador) and it is bugs like those that are not ok to use/abuse.

 

 

 

First line: By your logic, as long as someone of a certain ethnicity or someone of a certain wealth bracket is not in the room when I "insult" them, then there's no harm done. What a load o'bull. Generally, if you'd feel ashamed to say the exact same thing to a respected authority (i.e. grandparents), then it's offensive.

 

 

 

Second line: What bug is not harmful to the game? As a programmer, any bug, no matter how minor or benign it may seem from the end-user stand point, is always going to be perceived as "harmful". Doesn't matter if it means an extra Dragon Chainbody drop from the KQ or the Falador incident, or even something that's seriously benign as the lean-over-and-hover-glitch, it's still harmful, full stop.

 

 

 

Ok, I see what you're saying and so I'll apologize for being so loose in what I said. If you're all by yourself in your POH and say something you cannot harm anyone with whatever you say because unless your butler has the power to convey it to the other players, nobody else will ever see what you typed. Likewise, let's say my friend and I have a crude sense of humor and I pm him a joke - the only 2 people seeing it are not offended, so nobody is harmed. I guess I shouldn't have said "it cannot be considered offensive" but rather "it cannot be considered harmful".

 

 

 

If you honestly think the music counter being off by 1 is harmful to the game, then I feel sorry for you. The bug that allowed players to wear bedsheets outside of Port Phasmatys, how did that harm the game? It just gave a small boost of excitement and something different to the game while it was able to be used if anything. There ARE some bugs out there where players simply don't care if they're in the game or not, those are the ones that aren't harmful to the game. It's like being in a room full of scorpions and mosquitoes carrying a deadly disease, and then you have a few ants...those ants are not harmful to you.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's ok to real world trade, I realize it's against the rules. What I am saying is that those who did/do real world trade were not really doing anything harmful to the game or to the players of it (thus we should not go around hating them).

 

 

 

You contradict yourself in such a painful way. Again, by your logic, someone that breaks the rules of society, in turn, does not really harm society, and we should not hate them for their [non]-disruptive actions? Just sit back and think about that one for a few hours.

 

 

 

Uh, no I do not contradict myself in such a painful way. If you go 36 mph in a 35 mph zone with nobody around, you're not harming society in any way, yet it's against the law. I'm not saying it's ok to go 36 mph in a 35 mph zone, but if somebody does I will not think any less of them because they did no harm to anyone.

 

 

 

Real world trading did not harm the game nor it's players, however, it's not liked by the ones making the rules because they do not want to see other people profit from their game (regardless of whether or not those people profiting actually take away revenue from them...which it doesn't) and they do not want to encourage that type of game play which they feel isn't "in the spirit of the game". I understand why they made real world trading against the rules and I do not question them on that. What I don't understand is why anyone would bother feeling negatively about someone who did real world trade - because they did not affect the game for us in any way, in fact I can almost guarantee that most of us know somebody in-game who's real world traded and we don't even know it.

 

 

 

Another thing I'll point out is that there are people who do have a reason to dislike real world traders, the staff of the company who made the game...and I don't think any of us here fall into that category.

 

 

 

P.S. - Until somebody can prove that botting/macroing = real world trading, I'm going to just ignore any claims that real world trading is bad because of all the bots.

 

 

 

P.P.S - I realize there are probably more 'gaping flaws' in what I've typed, but for me I'd rather respond than to anticipate others' views.

[Bloodkay]

 

P.S. - Until somebody can prove that botting/macroing = real world trading, I'm going to just ignore any claims that real world trading is bad because of all the bots.

 

 

 

 

Okay, so are you ignoring all my posts on this matter? I'm not saying that Botting = RWTing, but just the opposite, that RWT = Botting. It's because MOST (not all) of the RWTer's collected their gold from resource-gathering Bots. How can you say the two are not interconnected?

[Alg]

 

P.S. - Until somebody can prove that botting/macroing = real world trading, I'm going to just ignore any claims that real world trading is bad because of all the bots.

 

 

 

 

Okay, so are you ignoring all my posts on this matter? I'm not saying that Botting = RWTing, but just the opposite, that RWT = Botting. It's because MOST (not all) of the RWTer's collected their gold from resource-gathering Bots. How can you say the two are not interconnected?

 

Because often, there was an actual human worker behind the bot, I'd think.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Uh, no I do not contradict myself in such a painful way. If you go 36 mph in a 35 mph zone with nobody around, you're not harming society in any way, yet it's against the law. I'm not saying it's ok to go 36 mph in a 35 mph zone, but if somebody does I will not think any less of them because they did no harm to anyone.

 

 

 

Real world trading did not harm the game nor it's players, however, it's not liked by the ones making the rules because they do not want to see other people profit from their game (regardless of whether or not those people profiting actually take away revenue from them...which it doesn't) and they do not want to encourage that type of game play which they feel isn't "in the spirit of the game". I understand why they made real world trading against the rules and I do not question them on that. What I don't understand is why anyone would bother feeling negatively about someone who did real world trade - because they did not affect the game for us in any way, in fact I can almost guarantee that most of us know somebody in-game who's real world traded and we don't even know it.

 

 

 

This is the reason that people don't like using real-world analogies -- they can't find a real-life punishment to justify the in-game one. Doing 36 in a 35 zone is a speeding ticket [from a seriously aggravated cop; you can go ±3MPH the speed limit in my state], or in RuneScape's terms, a warning. Real-world trading is honestly like embezzlement.

 

 

 

Now, as to why you think they didn't affect the game...In all respects, it's their fault that the game had to be clamped down as tight as it is today. By them breaking the rules time and again, after repeated warnings from Jagex and pleas from the community, the game had to be changed in a way that many people disliked. They didn't affect the game? Ask the PKers if they weren't affected by RWT.

 

 

 

If I knew someone that did RWT, I'd probably block them. But none of my friends do.

[Zierro]

I understand why they made real world trading against the rules and I do not question them on that. What I don't understand is why anyone would bother feeling negatively about someone who did real world trade - because they did not affect the game for us in any way, in fact I can almost guarantee that most of us know somebody in-game who's real world traded and we don't even know it.

 

 

 

They didn't effect the game? Then, after the RWT updates, why have all the bots disappeared? In Runescape, we took out RWT which took out bots. This might not hold true in some other games, but for Runescape, RWT and bots go hand in hand. If you don't believe me, go behind Varrock castle and discover that bots are extremely scarce ever since the RWT updates. It's like saying a drug seller and drug buyer aren't intertwined nor responsible for the existence of the other party.

[anim7]

I understand why they made real world trading against the rules and I do not question them on that. What I don't understand is why anyone would bother feeling negatively about someone who did real world trade - because they did not affect the game for us in any way, in fact I can almost guarantee that most of us know somebody in-game who's real world traded and we don't even know it.

 

 

 

They didn't effect the game? Then, after the RWT updates, why have all the bots disappeared? In Runescape, we took out RWT which took out bots. This might not hold true in some other games, but for Runescape, RWT and bots go hand in hand. If you don't believe me, go behind Varrock castle and discover that bots are extremely scarce ever since the RWT updates. It's like saying a drug seller and drug buyer aren't intertwined nor responsible for the existence of the other party.

 

 

 

 

 

There we go! I guess this is the argument that ends everything. Nice one zierro.

[mervinator_9]

For me Rwt can be boiled down to the bots (the main use for bots was to supply Rwt, it was obvious at the time and even more so now its been reduced as they have, for the most part, disappeared)

 

 

 

I'd say its definately unreasonable to over farm a resources, such as yew trees, in an unfair manor - its bad enough when your getting beating but a high level for a resource but by an auto is just a joke. when Rwt was common pratice this was happening far to often

 

 

 

As far as the people that Rwt go im pretty indifferent but you could liken it to someone who is a self-made man, has worked to get were he is, and someone who inherited a trust fund. I lose amounts of respect for people who Rwt as they have done nothing, in game, to deserve there money

 

 

 

People who Rwt know its not really good pratice, otherwise we'd have far more people coming forward saying they supported and partook in rwt everytime a debate such as this comes up imo.

[Madmanpur3]

The title of this thread is "Real World Trading: Reasonable or not?" (which in my opinion it is)... *not* "Botting/Macroing: Reasonable or not?" (if that were the title I would've said no it's not)... if A = B then it must remain that B = A so you cannot say that "RWT doesn't equal botting but botting does equal RWTing."

 

 

 

Botting and macroing affected the game in a TOTALLY different way than real world trading did and on top of that JaGex even made separate rules in regards to each.

[Zierro]

The title of this thread is "Real World Trading: Reasonable or not?" (which in my opinion it is)... *not* "Botting/Macroing: Reasonable or not?" (if that were the title I would've said no it's not)... if A = B then it must remain that B = A so you cannot say that "RWT doesn't equal botting but botting does equal RWTing."

 

 

 

Botting and macroing affected the game in a TOTALLY different way than real world trading did and on top of that JaGex even made separate rules in regards to each.

 

 

 

There's a reason why Jagex said in one of their diaries: "The RWT of all evil".

[Bloodkay]

The title of this thread is "Real World Trading: Reasonable or not?" (which in my opinion it is)... *not* "Botting/Macroing: Reasonable or not?" (if that were the title I would've said no it's not)... if A = B then it must remain that B = A so you cannot say that "RWT doesn't equal botting but botting does equal RWTing."

 

 

 

Botting and macroing affected the game in a TOTALLY different way than real world trading did and on top of that JaGex even made separate rules in regards to each.

 

 

 

Dear god, I KNOW that it's about RWT, but the fact that Botting ties into RWTing is what I'm trying to discuss here. That Botting is what's devaluing the game for me, and Botting is DIRECTLY related to RWTing, that's already been established.

 

Also, you know, the guidelines of Debate Club do say that we can go off on different matters as long as it stays inside the general area. Sure Botting and RWTing are two different things with different rules, but their RELATED, so it's definitely alright to talk about it~

[Madmanpur3]

People say "money is the root of all evil" which imo is more true than RWTing being the root of all evil in rs, yet money remains in the world today because if a problem arises with money as a reason for that problem...we take care of the problem, not remove all money so there's no motive for that problem to occur. If jagex would've focused as much on taking care of bots as they did getting rid of RWTing then I guarantee a lot more players would be happier with them, the game, and more players would be playing the game.

 

 

 

Bloodkay, I know what you're trying to say but I'm not so sure you understand what I'm trying to point out.

 

 

 

I'm saying:

 

~ Real world trading is reasonable because it in itself doesn't affect any gameplay or any players within the game, nor does it harm JaGex as a company in any way.

 

~ Credit card fraud is not reasonable because it harms JaGex as a company.

 

~ Botting/macroing is not reasonable because it affects the gameplay in a very negative way for most players.

 

 

 

K, that's what I'm saying and yet it sounds like most everyone is disagreeing with me and I am still unsure why because nobody's pointed out (or even tried) why real world trading is bad.