Jaziek Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Fate, in my opinion, is not real. So... the I'm commenting on here for a reason? No, who's liek would i change or 'would ov changed anyway' for commenting this comment? Fate can't tell that i might walk outside and get run over by a bus. And if fates real, then Russian Roulette doesn't work. 3 bullets, 6 people. Those 3 people who is gna die, fate didn't predict that, the [puncture] who put the barrel and bullets in the gun did :) So i rest my case haha I've been swayed. =D> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nom Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm going to go a little more in depth than my random example of a totally random and slightly amusing occurence. Fate, as I see it, is a paradox. By the literal interpretation of fate, your future has already been planned. Therefore, no choice you make has an impact on what will happen in the future. Doesn't that destroy free will? I can make a completely different choice on a whim, depending on environment, hell anything at all. But if something is fated to happen, that means I will make the choices leading to it. And if fate dictates what choice I make, it's not my choice. Conversely, if my fate changes with every choice I make, then the previous fate that would inevitably happen, well, won't happen. How is that fate then? It is a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Every process that happens has a logical reason, because the only thing that ultimately affects your life, is other human beings who have independent thought processes. The only other thing directly affecting your life events is nature, weather and possible disasters arising from them (which have a clear explanation as well). Pizza is a miracle. Music is a miracle. Comedy is a miracle. I could go on and on. Maybe it's a difference in world views then.. But I see nothing miraculous in those things. Pizza is dough that has vegetables and meats slapped on it, then shoved in an oven & taken out for eating. Music that you listen on your MP3 players has failed hundreds of times, voice-perfected, mixed, pitched, smoothed digitally in the studio before it became the final product you enjoy. The artists possibly got depressed, started taking drugs, etc... Because of the stress that went into all the albums they've finished and the producer was never satisfied enough. Comedy is understanding the world and making intelligent puns on things that exist in it. Sure, dumb people can make jokes too, but they're usually not amusing to most people. But I don't see how it's a miracle either... When enough people realize the world isn't as serious as it's set out to be, humor is prone to appear. It happened already in Rome and will happen long after we die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 I see what you're saying Blue, but I was using an optimistic twist on those things. Pizza tastes great to me. It just makes me wonder how people got the idea and how all the ingredients are so pleasant when they touch my tongue. The end product of all those things is what I'm grateful for. To clear any confusion, I'm only trying to justify my own personal views - not trying to declare that fate existing is indisputable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 How does life being good result in determinism? Does that mean that the people that life is bad for are those who are truely free? With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 I hate quoting myself but: I think even pessimists could believe in fate though. (Everything builds up just enough for it to all come falling down.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koo Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 god is an idea created by humans to explain that which they do not understand. fixed. Such wise words. ^dds'er in progress =D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Thats not an argument for determinism, thats not an argument against it either. Its not an argument at all. I do not see any reasonably connection from the premise of that (if indeed there is one) and the conclusion. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Personally, the fact that I think the world is perfect is my evidence for believing fate exists. You know, everything happening for a greater good? I really can't see how you fail to make the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 What is the greater good? Or are you simply using the term in its crudest sense? With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Pizza existing. Music existing. Comedy existing. Also, remember I'm talking on a personal level. In my own opinion, the world couldn't get better, and I have fate to thank for that - for making things turn out the way they did (the greater good). I can't stress this enough but I'm only trying to justify my own personal views - not trying to declare that fate existing is indisputable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralus Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 It just seems like a complete non-sequitur. Couldn't you have exactly the same world and world view without putting fate into the equation? La lune ne garde aucune rancune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I can't stress this enough but I'm only trying to justify my own personal views - not trying to declare that fate existing is indisputable. Well of course, to go down that avenue would be a silly endeavor. Pizza existing. Music existing. Comedy existing. Also, remember I'm talking on a personal level. In my own opinion, the world couldn't get better, and I have fate to thank for that - for making things turn out the way they did (the greater good). Oh, I do not doubt that as humans we are constantly influenced by different things at every moment of our existence. What I doubt is the leap from believing in the effect of these influences, and believing we are determined by them. The problem I foresee with your own argument is that fate would exist whether you enjoyed or loathed life and the conclusion would be exactly the same. That perhaps you hated life because it was for the greater good, and when your arguments have no impact on the conclusions, they are not really arguments. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 It just seems like a complete non-sequitur. Couldn't you have exactly the same world and world view without putting fate into the equation? You mean by thinking the world is perfect by accident? The problem I foresee with your own argument is that fate would exist whether you enjoyed or loathed life and the conclusion would be exactly the same. You seem to have taken things from a personal level to a universal level. Telling me fate doesn't exist is like telling a Christian that God doesn't exist. Does a Christian have a fool proof way of proving God's existence? No, but in his mind it's what makes the most sense to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralus Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 It just seems like a complete non-sequitur. Couldn't you have exactly the same world and world view without putting fate into the equation? You mean by thinking the world is perfect by accident? Not by accident. Things like evolution by natural selection explain why the world suits us so well without needing to bother with any kind of fate. Of course you can say fate set that into action, but there's no need for it. La lune ne garde aucune rancune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Of course you can say fate set that into action, but there's no need for it. Why is that? Of course I'll say it's fate's fault. That's what this is all about. Now let me ask a question. Why don't you believe in fate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 You seem to have taken things from a personal level to a universal level. Telling me fate doesn't exist is like telling a Christian that God doesn't exist. Does a Christian have a fool proof way of proving God's existence? No, but in his mind it's what makes the most sense to him. Oh, i knew that you would probably bring the analogy of religion into this, it always happens with these metaphysical questions. You're supposed to be offering an explanation, a reasonable argument in favor of why you think fate exists. The problem is that you can not provide one and so this is the conclusion we arrive at - later than I expected as well! Anyway can you tell me how you believe fate would exist at a personal level and at the same time, not at a universal level? With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralus Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 My point was that your reasons for believing in fate can be explained without having to use fate. Food tastes good because we've either adapted to like it, or we adapt it to suit our tastes, the earth's great for us because we've been here through our whole life as a species and have adapted to it. Why make the assumption that it's down to fate? I'm not trying to have a go or anything, just trying to understand your reasons. P.S. I can see this discussion being quite a close parallel to the bible and god threads. La lune ne garde aucune rancune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoMoreDead Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Pizza existing. Music existing. Comedy existing. Also, remember I'm talking on a personal level. In my own opinion, the world couldn't get better, and I have fate to thank for that - for making things turn out the way they did (the greater good). I can't stress this enough but I'm only trying to justify my own personal views - not trying to declare that fate existing is indisputable. Well, to think that the world couldn't get any better is probably the biggest joke in the world, but I'll set that aside. I think that your belief in fate is directly tied to your religious beliefs. Otherwise there is no real reason to say that fate exists. There has never been any evidence to suggest that fate exists, so why would you believe that it does? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that everything doesn't happen for a reason until prooven otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 You're supposed to be offering an explanation, a reasonable argument in favor of why you think fate exists. The problem is that you can not provide one and so this is the conclusion we arrive at - later than I expected as well! My reason is that I think the world is a great place, so something had to set it up to be that way. That reason is not good enough for you though. Sorry but I can't fix that. Anyway can you tell me how you believe fate would exist at a personal level and at the same time, not at a universal level? The same exact way God exists on a personal level and not a universal level. People have their own personal ways for believing things. My point was that your reasons for believing in fate can be explained without having to use fate. Food tastes good because we've either adapted to like it, or we adapt it to suit our tastes, the earth's great for us because we've been here through our whole life as a species and have adapted to it. Why make the assumption that it's down to fate? But can't I say that adaptation is just "fate" in disguise? I think that your belief in fate is directly tied to your religious beliefs. Otherwise there is no real reason to say that fate exists. There has never been any evidence to suggest that fate exists, so why would you believe that it does? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that everything doesn't happen for a reason until prooven otherwise? I believe it can go both ways. You can say that way makes sense because there isn't prove, but I can easily say the same about the other side of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralus Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 My point was that your reasons for believing in fate can be explained without having to use fate. Food tastes good because we've either adapted to like it, or we adapt it to suit our tastes, the earth's great for us because we've been here through our whole life as a species and have adapted to it. Why make the assumption that it's down to fate? But can't I say that adaptation is just "fate" in disguise? You can, and you have been, but why? La lune ne garde aucune rancune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierro Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm not trying to have a go or anything, just trying to understand your reasons. P.S. I can see this discussion being quite a close parallel to the bible and god threads. Be my guest. It's about time I had a good debate. : You can, and you have been, but why? Because it just seems too good to be true, therefore I think there is more to the picture than just what we see as adaptation. The whole process of adapting is what astounds me - it gives me suspicion that things were meant to be this way for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenticular_J Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I don't think that there's any "greater good" or anything, by the way. BTW. AACROTP. I think fate doesn't give a [cabbage]. My view of fate is that whatever's going to happen will happen. We have free will, and can try to avoid it, but it will happen. And yeah, this discussion will go close to theology. As long as its an actual debate, fine by me, no matter how futile debating it is. Meh, this is off-topic. We debate about buttered cats in space! : catch it now so you can like it before it went so mainstream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 You're supposed to be offering an explanation, a reasonable argument in favor of why you think fate exists. The problem is that you can not provide one and so this is the conclusion we arrive at - later than I expected as well! My reason is that I think the world is a great place, so something had to set it up to be that way. That reason is not good enough for you though. Sorry but I can't fix that. Thats because determinism is not the logical conclusion to arrive at from that premise. Anyway can you tell me how you believe fate would exist at a personal level and at the same time, not at a universal level? The same exact way God exists on a personal level and not a universal level. People have their own personal ways for believing things. Your belief in God may be personal but it is extrapolated to a Universal level because it simply does not make sense if it is not, both determinsim and God are inherently universal ideas. What other people think would be irrelevant because of that. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_wits Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I don't believe in fate. no reason to. I also don't believe in god... however I believe in faries, mermaids, aliens and unicorns. but this fate thing seems like a load of crap... unless it's my fate to take over the world.. I doubt everything is predestined. I was predestined to need glasses because i loved books soo much i nearly destroyed my health reading them... sure... but how far does fate go? is it fate for me to drop a cheese sandwich? was it meant to fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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