Fate

[Zierro]

Satenza, you're just setting me for repeating my religious analogies.

 

 

 

Thats because determinism is not the logical conclusion to arrive at from that premise.

 

 

 

"Belief in God is not the logical conclusion to arrive at just because [insert reason for faith here]."

 

 

 

Your belief in God may be personal but it is extrapolated to a Universal level because it simply does not make sense if it is not, both determinsim and God are inherently universal ideas. What other people think would be irrelevant because of that.

 

 

 

Wait, you do know what I implied by "universal" right? We are each living in our own little worlds - every single human being. In my world, black is the best color, pizza is the best food, Tool is the best band, etc. In your world, that list will be different. In my world, fate is proven. In your world, fate isn't proven. God is very similar.

 

 

 

Would you care to give me a reason as to why belief in God is different than belief in fate?

 

 

 

Edit: "Proven" is such a strong word when talking about this. I didn't literally mean that - I think you get my point though.

[ThurinEthir]

We have free will, but fate still controls us completely. Or so I believe.

 

Something like that. We can choose what we want, but in a way, our choices are controlled by fate. It sounds contradictory, but it makes enough sense to me.

 

And I know you said to look in your sig, but from my personal viewpoint, the world is far from perfect. There are a lot of great things, but a lot of terrible things. It could be fate that caused the terrible things to happen, but it could also be bad choices made by people. Of course, those choices were controlled by fate... :? #-o

 

Yeah. I'm confusing myself. I think I could go further, but it would probably start a religious debate. Which I'm not in the mood for. Maybe later.

[Satenza]

Satenza, you're just setting me for repeating my religious analogies.

 

 

 

Thats because determinism is not the logical conclusion to arrive at from that premise.

 

 

 

"Belief in God is not the logical conclusion to arrive at just because [insert reason for faith here]."

 

 

 

Well, I was prodding you into hopefully delving a little deeper than simply invoking faith.

 

 

 

Your belief in God may be personal but it is extrapolated to a Universal level because it simply does not make sense if it is not, both determinsim and God are inherently universal ideas. What other people think would be irrelevant because of that.

 

 

 

Wait, you do know what I implied by "universal" right? We are each living in our own little worlds - every single human being. In my world, black is the best color, pizza is the best food, Tool is the best band, etc. In your world, that list will be different. In my world, fate is proven. In your world, fate isn't proven. God is very similar.

 

 

 

I know what you meant, but as I pointed out. Determinsim is inherently a universal principle, there can be no personal determinism. In your world fate may be proven to you, but as soon as it is then it is extrapolated to a universal level which depends upon no one, not even yourself.

 

 

 

Would you care to give me a reason as to why belief in God is different than belief in fate?

 

 

 

Oh, both are metaphysical questions, there is no doubting that. Both lack any form of conclusion to the question and in that sense it does share the same qualties as a belief in God. As I said earlier, I simply wished to have you provide arguments for determinism without invoking faith.

[Zierro]

Oh, both are metaphysical questions, there is no doubting that. Both lack any form of conclusion to the question and in that sense it does share the same qualties as a belief in God. As I said earlier, I simply wished to have you provide arguments for determinism without invoking faith.

 

 

 

I think that's all it can come down to though. This thread will be on my mind for a good while, so if I can think of anything extra I'll definitely let you know. :

[RichieMcD]

I believe everything does happen for a reason, to even out the universe and to counter act the opposite of what will happen. I don't think the universe is coded in any way so that this coin flip will land that way, the next one will land the opposite way. I just think it will land the opposite way next time to keep everything even and running smoothly. My theory on it is kinda like Neutons "for every reaction there is a opposite reaction" or whatever it is.

[warri0r45]

I don't believe in fate. It's up to the individual to work hard to do what they want in life, and yes, they have the free will to do that.

[warri0r45]

Personally, the fact that I think the world is perfect is my evidence for believing fate exists. You know, everything happening for a greater good? I really can't see how you fail to make the connection.

 

 

 

Perfect? That's incredible. We must have completely different views on what perfect means. What do you call the hypothetical time when all the world is one and there is no war, disease or animosity between anyone? Super-perfect?

[doomy]

You can't say its real or not, for certain, but I do belive in it in some ways.

[Zierro]

Personally, the fact that I think the world is perfect is my evidence for believing fate exists. You know, everything happening for a greater good? I really can't see how you fail to make the connection.

 

 

 

Perfect? That's incredible. We must have completely different views on what perfect means. What do you call the hypothetical time when all the world is one and there is no war, disease or animosity between anyone? Super-perfect?

 

 

 

We had this exact conversation before if you can recall. Well - not exactly, but like 95% similar. To answer your question, I call it a boring world where I'd be ungrateful.

[warri0r45]

Personally, the fact that I think the world is perfect is my evidence for believing fate exists. You know, everything happening for a greater good? I really can't see how you fail to make the connection.

 

 

 

Perfect? That's incredible. We must have completely different views on what perfect means. What do you call the hypothetical time when all the world is one and there is no war, disease or animosity between anyone? Super-perfect?

 

 

 

We had this exact conversation before if you can recall. Well - not exactly, but like 95% similar. To answer your question, I call it a boring world where I'd be ungrateful.

 

 

 

And how do you see this as evidence for fate?

[Zierro]

Like I said, my belief is that we're in the most perfect world possible and things were "meant to" be this way. If we lived in the "super-perfect" world, then it wouldn't be perfect at all because of the fact that it's "too perfect" if that makes any sense. Allow me to expand.

 

 

 

As stated before, "cold" must exist for "hot" to exist. A world of true perfection would mean a paradox, because if there was no "bad" what would we have to compare our "goods" with? Nothing, therefore they wouldn't be "goods" at all.

 

 

 

So in other words, things aren't too good and they aren't too bad in my opinion - they are just right. That is my reason for believing fate, as to a Christian witnessing a miracle would be his reason for believing God.

[warri0r45]

Of course, perfection is only thought up because we have things less than perfect and have a basis of comparison (bad) to envisage the best (good). I personally don't see how this makes things "just so" so as to mean fate exists but I'll not argue the point. We just see things differently.

[Sumpta]

I don't believe in fate. It's up to the individual to work hard to do what they want in life, and yes, they have the free will to do that.

 

 

 

I cannot believe that. Should everybody start out life equal, then yes, I would say so to. Work hard and you'll be rewarded. But people are by definition unequal. Even before we are born, genetics come into play. And then. Geography. Environment. Society. Education. Gender.

 

 

 

I've been working in the social sector for a few years now, working with those who according to our standards have not succeeded in life. A lot of them haven't been able to make the American Dream come true, and to be frank, a lot of them never will, even if they tried their utmost best to. They might have free will, but not the options to pursue it.

 

 

 

Anyway, back to fate. I don't believe in fate per se, but I do believe in determination. We are children of our time and our surroundings. Apart from that, I sometimes do feel 'things are (not) meant to be'. I guess it's a way of coping with the things in my life I can't alter.

[warri0r45]

I agree, Sumpta, I was just speaking generally. Obviously not everyone can be lucky enough to achieve what they want in life.