Closed.

[Veritas94]

Oh, and by the way, there is NOTHING ridiculous about meleers wearing ranged armor (See Huta's outfit). By all standards, I've won this because you can't seem to find a way for a hybriding mage to beat that particular hybriding melee/ranger.

[Veritas94]

One last thing. You're ignoring part of my post which directly shows that miasmic is not so much a skill which caters toward magic, but a skill that is better used in conjunction with MORE POWERFUL ranged and melee attacks. I repeat, Magic needs to stand alone, and in order to do this we need to add specials and updates to its armor, freezing time, and the magnitude of its hits in order to be on bar with a meleer who happens to be wearing ranged armor (The mage can hybriding be wearing by wearing a whip to hit through the ranged armor, but he'll still lose anyway. Did you see the defense bonuses on Huta's outfit. Huta's outfit has nearly TWICE the amount of magic defense (Compfreak's magic outfit only has +74 magic attack, lol) and has insane slash defense bonuses, as well.) You can beat any mage with it (I'm discounting miasmic because using them would mean that you would need to use melee next if you want to obtain their full benefit. Miasmic does not cater to magic, and forces us to ignore the fundamental issues with magic.)

 

 

 

Magic is not simply a crutch for Melee and Ranged to lean on. It needs to be just as powerful. At the moment, it's far LESS powerful

[Obtaurian]

One last thing. You're ignoring part of my post which directly show that miasmic is not so much a skill which caters toward magic, but a skill that is better used in conjunction with MORE POWERFUL ranged and melee attacks. I repeat, Magic needs to stand alone, and in order to do this we need to add specials and updates to its armor, freezing time, and the magnitude of its hits in order to be on bar with a meleer who happens to be wearing ranged armor (The mage can hybriding be wearing by wearing a whip to hit through the ranged armor, but he'll still lose anyway.)

 

 

 

Magic is not simply a crutch for Melee and Ranged to lean on. It needs to be just as powerful. At the moment, it is NOT just as powerful.

 

 

 

I contend that an Armadyl Godsword is not a stand alone weapon, and that it is best used in conjunction with magic. I contend that a Dark Bow is not a stand alone weapon, and is best used in conjunction with blah blah blah blah. All items can be better used with other items. If your Dark Bow special doesn't knock em out, are you just gonna stand there and fire two shots every 4 seconds until it does? I sure hope not. I'm very curious as to what your point was with this...

 

 

 

Magic CAN stand alone, but only against another stand alone combat class, assuming that class is melee. Similarly, ranged can stand alone, but only against magic. It's called the combat triangle, and it's pretty balanced at the moment. When we introduce hybrids, it becomes more complex.

 

 

 

"Magic is not simply a crutch for Melee and Ranged to lean on."

 

 

 

Took the words out of my mouth.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and by the way, there is NOTHING ridiculous about meleers wearing ranged armor (See Huta's outfit). By all standards, I've won this because you can't seem to find a way for a hybriding mage to beat that particular hybriding melee/ranger.

 

 

 

Why should I prove that one hybrid can or can't beat another hybrid? You haven't mentioned pure combat classes in this situation, making it irrelevant to the topic.

[Obtaurian]

First of all, sorry for the double post.

 

 

 

Alright, I'm going to dissect everything now and present what should hopefully be my final argument. You contend in your original post that magic is underpowered as a stand alone combat skill.

 

 

 

This entire discussion, you've argued that we have two players:

 

 

 

Player 1

 

Melee armor

 

Melee weapon

 

Ranged armor

 

 

 

Player 2

 

Mage armor

 

Mage weapon

 

Melee armor

 

 

 

Correct? You say that Player 2 cannot beat Player 1, thus proving that mage is underpowered as a stand alone class. The (very, very obvious) problem is that neither of these players are using a single class, which you state in this post:

 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, there is NOTHING ridiculous about meleers wearing ranged armor (See Huta's outfit). By all standards, I've won this because you can't seem to find a way for a hybriding mage to beat that particular hybriding melee/ranger.

 

 

 

So you're now arguing that a certain hybrid cannot beat another hybrid, which is NOT what your original post argued. As a PURE, STAND ALONE class, mage can beat melee, and cannot beat range. When we delve into the discussion of HYBRIDS, the situation becomes complex, as there are hundreds of different combinations of armor and weapons.

 

 

 

So which is it? What are you arguing at this point? Are you still arguing that mage is underpowered as a stand alone class? How so? Are you arguing that Player 2 cannot beat Player 1 in your own example? If so, then you are absolutely right, and you have shown that in YOUR situation where one player is using a disadvantageous combination of armor and weapons, he will lose the fight.

[Veritas94]

 

I contend that an Armadyl Godsword is not a stand alone weapon, and that it is best used in conjunction with magic.

 

 

 

No, with a weapon that powerful, you can easily beat other rangers and magers, given that you use ranged armor, not magic with it. You already supposed to beat rangers, and the mages you're fighting are (1) probably not using Zuriel's staff (2) if they are, you still have a good chance to beat them using Huta's outfit.

 

 

 

 

I contend that a Dark Bow is not a stand alone weapon, and is best used in conjunction with blah blah blah blah. All items can be better used with other items. If your Dark Bow special doesn't knock em out, are you just gonna stand there and fire two shots every 4 seconds until it does? I sure hope not. I'm very curious as to what your point was with this...

 

 

 

If my dark bow special doesn't knock them out, I can retreat safely to my bank corner and hit you insanely hard with it again in another two minutes. Haven't you noticed the 1 iteming strategies that PJers employ? It's because ranged and melee weapons have gotten so powerful that with a little bit of luck, you can take anyone out before they have a chance to blink. Fair? No. Besides, if your dark bow special doesn't knock them out, chances are, you're going to be carrying something like a magic shortbow, rune knives, or a crossbow, all viable options within the ranged sphere. Those viable options don't exist with magic: Ancients caps at 30 damage which is dished out slowly. You can use a whip to hit rapid 40s, dharok's to hit !@#$load of damage, and hit quick consistent damage with ranged via knives or crossbows.

 

 

 

By promoting the use of miasmic spells, you're not addressing the key issues magic has as a whole, alright?

 

 

 

 

Magic CAN stand alone, but only against another stand alone combat class, assuming that class is melee. Similarly, ranged can stand alone, but only against magic. It's called the combat triangle, and it's pretty balanced at the moment. When we introduce hybrids, it becomes more complex

.

 

 

 

The combat triangle isn't balanced at the moment because magic not only lacks finishing power (In the pure melee vs. Mage combat; I've already addressed why combos are impractical for finishers), but it has a very hard time beating meleers who wear ranged armor. As I said, for the sake of comparison, the mage can wear whatever the hell kind of melee weapon he wants in order to hybrid, but he'll have a very hard time beating a meleer with Huta's basic outfit. You've chosen to ignore the things I've said past the part of the post you quoted.

 

 

 

 

"Magic is not simply a crutch for Melee and Ranged to lean on."

 

 

 

 

 

Took the words out of my mouth.

 

 

 

But at the moment, it is a crutch. Let's work toward fixing that, so things don't stay the way they are. Change, change, change :-) (Hehe, Barack has the right idea :-) )

[Veritas94]

First of all, sorry for the double post.

 

 

 

Alright, I'm going to dissect everything now and present what should hopefully be my final argument. You contend in your original post that magic is underpowered as a stand alone combat skill.

 

 

 

This entire discussion, you've argued that we have two players:

 

 

 

Player 1

 

Melee armor

 

Melee weapon

 

Ranged armor

 

 

 

Player 2

 

Mage armor

 

Mage weapon

 

Melee armor

 

 

 

Correct? You say that Player 2 cannot beat Player 1, thus proving that mage is underpowered as a stand alone class. The (very, very obvious problem) is that neither of these players are using a single class, which you state in this post:

 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, there is NOTHING ridiculous about meleers wearing ranged armor (See Huta's outfit). By all standards, I've won this because you can't seem to find a way for a hybriding mage to beat that particular hybriding melee/ranger.

 

 

 

So you're now arguing that a certain hybrid cannot beat another hybrid, which is NOT what your original post argued. As a PURE, STAND ALONE class, mage can beat melee, and cannot beat range. When we delve into the discussion of HYBRIDS, the situation becomes complex, as there are hundreds of different combinations of armor and weapons.

 

 

 

So which is it? What are you arguing at this point? Are you still arguing that mage is underpowered as a stand alone class? How so? Are you arguing that Player 2 cannot beat Player 1 in your own example? If so, then you are absolutely right, and you have shown that in YOUR situation where one player is using a disadvantageous combination of armor and weapons, he will lose the fight.

 

 

 

My argument: A hybrid using magic+X will lose to a hybrid using ranged+melee. In the real world, no meleer is just going to let you stand there, ancienting him. They're either going to run, in which case you don't have enough K0ing power to stop him and you don't get any kill whatsoever, or he's going to put on some ranged armor and kick your !@#. That's the way most of my confrontations with meleers go.

 

 

 

Give magic a special and let us wear armor which is much stronger against melee. Ahrims is inadequate against whips, godswords, dragons claws, (INSERT OBLIGATORY OVERPOWERED MELEE WEAPON HERE, LOL).

[Obtaurian]

My argument: A hybrid using magic+X will lose to a hybrid using ranged+melee. In the real world, no meleer is just going to let you stand there, ancienting him. They're either going to run, in which case you don't have enough K0ing power to stop him and you don't get any kill whatsoever, or he's going to put on some ranged armor and kick your !@#. That's the way most of my confrontations with meleers go.

 

 

 

So you agree then that magic as a stand alone class is capable of beating a stand alone warrior and losing to a stand alone ranger, just as the combat triangle dictates?

 

 

 

I wont argue the subject of hybrids, as we can go round and round for years trying to pit every teeny tiny combination against every other. Not only that, but you haven't given specific armors or weapons to either player, making this a guessing game on my behalf, and ultimately irrelevant to your original point.

 

 

 

Speaking of which, you should edit your original post to accommodate your new argument.

[Veritas94]

So you agree then that magic as a stand alone class is capable of beating a stand alone warrior and losing to a stand alone ranger, just as the combat triangle dictates?

 

 

 

The combat triangle works until you start bending it and hybriding, in which case magic loses out BIG TIME. If you thought this thread was about magers beating idiot meleers who wear rune, then you've been missing the point the whole time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wont argue the subject of hybrids, as we can go round and round for years trying to pit every teeny tiny combination against every other. Not only that, but you haven't given specific armors or weapons to either player, making this a guessing game on my behalf, and ultimately irrelevant to your original point.

 

 

 

Speaking of which, you should edit your original post to accommodate your new argument.

 

 

 

This entire thread has been about the subject of hybrids. And you and compfreak have been arguing with me about them for quite some time. If you want me to specify armor so you can get a better idea, here you go:

 

 

 

Mager:

 

 

 

 

Meleer:

 

[Veritas94]

By the way, I do plan to continue revising my original post as my argument expands. You don't have to tell me to do it; I've already stated I would in my original post.

[Obtaurian]

So you agree then that magic as a stand alone class is capable of beating a stand alone warrior and losing to a stand alone ranger, just as the combat triangle dictates?

 

 

 

The combat triangle works until you start bending it and hybriding, in which case magic loses out BIG TIME. If you thought this thread was about magers beating idiot meleers who wear rune, then you've been missing the point the whole time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wont argue the subject of hybrids, as we can go round and round for years trying to pit every teeny tiny combination against every other. Not only that, but you haven't given specific armors or weapons to either player, making this a guessing game on my behalf, and ultimately irrelevant to your original point.

 

 

 

Speaking of which, you should edit your original post to accommodate your new argument.

 

 

 

This entire thread has been about the subject of hybrids. And you and and compfreak have been arguing with me about them for quite some time. If you want me to specify armor so you can get a better idea, here you go:

 

 

 

Mager:

 

 

 

 

Meleer:

 

 

 

 

Okay, I think I understand this time. The topic of your title, "Magic is absurdly underpowered," implies that... magic is underpowered, and quite absurdly. Your argument is that a hybrid wearing mage robes, a few pieces of melee gear, and a mage weapon, will lose to a hybrid with range armor, a few pieces of melee gear, and a melee weapon.

 

 

 

The problem is that your argument has nothing to do with mage being absurdly underpowered. All you're trying to prove is that so and so hybrid is weak against such and such hybrid. Well... yeah! When you're HYBRIDING, the situation becomes complex, and if your opponent happens to be carrying a combination of armor that gives him an edge over you, you very well could lose. In your situation, I would assume the mage/melee hybrid loses.

 

 

 

Okay, so now that we've agreed on the outcome of that particular hybrid match up, what does it have to do with magic being absurdly underpowered?

 

 

 

EDIT: Let me know when you've updated your original post. I'd like to reread it.

[Veritas94]

 

 

 

Okay, I think I understand this time. The topic of your title, "Magic is absurdly underpowered," implies that... magic is underpowered, and quite absurdly. Your argument is that a hybrid wearing mage robes, a few pieces of melee gear, and a mage weapon, will lose to a hybrid with range armor, a few pieces of melee gear, and a melee weapon.

 

 

 

The problem is that your argument has nothing to do with mage being absurdly underpowered. All you're trying to prove is that so and so hybrid is weak against such and such hybrid. Well... yeah! When you're HYBRIDING, the situation becomes complex, and if your opponent happens to be carrying a combination of armor that gives him an edge over you, you very well could lose. In your situation, I would assume the mage/melee hybrid loses.

 

 

 

Okay, so now that we've agreed on the outcome of that particular hybrid match up, what does it have to do with magic being absurdly underpowered?

 

 

 

I think what you don't realize is you're trying to justify magic's weak hit and its susceptibility to melee damage when melee does find a way to get up close to the mage (Very easy for them to do) by saying, "Oh, well magic can freeze and hit 30s." You're looking at it from an itemization perspective, while I'm looking at it from a game mechanics perspective. It's either, "you need to make it more difficult for magic users to be hit with melee attacks" or "you need need to make mages hit harder so that the time the meleer actually spends frozen is meaningful."

 

 

 

The mage+x hybrid isn't going to beat anything wearing ranged armor because it fails in keeping the opponents frozen for meaningful durations, and in those durations themselves the damage you do with magic is pitiful. Hence, my reasoning for increases in magic damage that occurs at the same rate as melee damage, and a toning down of the miasmic spells so that they don't effect ranged (Why the hell would Jagex WANT to give magic an advantage over ranged?)

 

Yes, I have a problem with ranged armor being able to be worn by whoever the hell so pleases and thwarting mages' attempts outright.

[Obtaurian]

 

 

 

Okay, I think I understand this time. The topic of your title, "Magic is absurdly underpowered," implies that... magic is underpowered, and quite absurdly. Your argument is that a hybrid wearing mage robes, a few pieces of melee gear, and a mage weapon, will lose to a hybrid with range armor, a few pieces of melee gear, and a melee weapon.

 

 

 

The problem is that your argument has nothing to do with mage being absurdly underpowered. All you're trying to prove is that so and so hybrid is weak against such and such hybrid. Well... yeah! When you're HYBRIDING, the situation becomes complex, and if your opponent happens to be carrying a combination of armor that gives him an edge over you, you very well could lose. In your situation, I would assume the mage/melee hybrid loses.

 

 

 

Okay, so now that we've agreed on the outcome of that particular hybrid match up, what does it have to do with magic being absurdly underpowered?

 

 

 

I think what you don't realize is you're trying to justify magic's weak hit and its susceptibility to melee damage when melee does find a way to get up close to the mage (Very easy for them to do). You're looking at it from an itemization perspective, while I'm looking at it from a game mechanics perspective. It's either, "you need to make it more difficult for magic users to be hit with melee attacks" or "you need need to make mages hit harder so that the time the meleer actually spends frozen is meaningful."

 

 

 

The mage+x hybrid isn't going to beat anything wearing ranged armor because it fails in keeping the opponents frozen for meaningful durations, and in those durations themselves the damage you do with magic is pitiful. Hence, my reasoning for increases in magic damage that occurs at the same rate as melee damage, and a toning down of the miasmic spells so that they don't effect ranged (Why the hell would Jagex WANT to give magic an advantage over ranged?)

 

 

 

If the mage+x hybrid is using gear that is advantageous against the hybrid using range armor, the mage+x hybrid will win. If not, then he will lose. It's quite simple. I can argue that range is underpowered because a player in melee armor with a melee weapon and range weapon lost to a player with melee armor, melee weapon, and mage armor. How is that situation any different from your own? We can keep going and argue that melee is underpowered because player A is using this or that armor, etc, etc.

 

 

 

Magic does a lower amount of damage (around 50) than melee (close to 99) because magic stacks special effects on top of that damage. Sure, the warrior can potentially KO the mage, but the problem is getting close to the mage while also dealing with the high damage he's taking, his lowered attack, poison, and the fact that the mage is healing. I wont even go into miasmic spells - that's just overkill.

 

 

 

So how is magic absurdly underpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore. Would you like to continue arguing hybrid combinations? We can do that, I suppose, though I don't see how it's relevant to magic being underpowered.

 

 

 

EDIT: To comment on your red text, I don't think it's right that a mage can wield a Godsword while maintaining a huge magic boost from his robes. All melee weapons should give huge negative magic attack bonuses to compensate.

 

 

 

See what I did there?

[Veritas94]

 

 

 

If the mage+x hybrid is using gear that is advantageous against the hybrid using range armor, the mage+x hybrid will win. If not, then he will lose. It's quite simple. I can argue that range is underpowered because a player in melee armor with a melee weapon and range weapon lost to a player with melee armor, melee weapon, and mage armor. How is that situation any different from your own? We can keep going and argue that melee is underpowered because player A is using this or that armor, etc, etc.

 

 

 

Magic does a lower amount of damage (around 50) than melee (close to 99) because magic stacks special effects on top of that damage. Sure, the warrior can potentially KO the mage, but the problem is getting close to the mage while also dealing with the high damage he's taking, his lowered attack, poison, and the fact that the mage is healing. I wont even go into miasmic spells - that's just overkill.

 

 

 

So how is magic absurdly underpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore. Would you like to continue arguing hybrid combinations? We can do that, I suppose, though I don't see how it's relevant to magic being underpowered.

 

 

 

Magic does 32 max. It is NOT 50. Get that right. The warrior won't have a hard time getting close to the mage if he's not a complete idiot (He can take off his armor, after all, and he gains passive resistance to magic from training his own magic level (ROFL?) and using protect magic prayers. If you mention that this is bad advice and you'd just come up and melee me with your whip, then you'd be the one talking about hybriding. Checkmate. Also, what's stopping the mage being poisoned as well? 15% lowering of attack also isn't all that much. Zuriel's staff last 1 hour, if you're lucky enough not be killed with it in combat, and it costs 1.6m. Good luck spending 1.6m on 1 hour worth of combat, excluding the cost of all the spells. All in all, how is magic NOT absurdly underpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

OOPS. I'd like to edit that last sentence. rofl.

[Obtaurian]

 

 

 

If the mage+x hybrid is using gear that is advantageous against the hybrid using range armor, the mage+x hybrid will win. If not, then he will lose. It's quite simple. I can argue that range is underpowered because a player in melee armor with a melee weapon and range weapon lost to a player with melee armor, melee weapon, and mage armor. How is that situation any different from your own? We can keep going and argue that melee is underpowered because player A is using this or that armor, etc, etc.

 

 

 

Magic does a lower amount of damage (around 50) than melee (close to 99) because magic stacks special effects on top of that damage. Sure, the warrior can potentially KO the mage, but the problem is getting close to the mage while also dealing with the high damage he's taking, his lowered attack, poison, and the fact that the mage is healing. I wont even go into miasmic spells - that's just overkill.

 

 

 

So how is magic absurdly underpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore. Would you like to continue arguing hybrid combinations? We can do that, I suppose, though I don't see how it's relevant to magic being underpowered.

 

 

 

Magic does 32 max. It is NOT 50. Get that right. The warrior won't have a hard time getting close to the mage if he's not a complete idiot (He can take off his armor, after all, and he gains passive resistance to magic from training his own magic level (ROFL?) and using protect magic prayers. If you mention that this is bad advice and you'd just come up and melee me with your whip, then you'd be the own talking about hybriding. Checkmate. Also, what's stopping the mage being poisoned as well? 15% lowering of attack also isn't all that much. Zuriel's staff last 1 hour, if you're lucky enough not be killed with it in combat, and it costs 1.6m. Good lucky spending 1.6m on an hours worth of combat, excluding the cost of all the spells. All in all, how is magic NOT absurdly overpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore.

 

 

 

Mage maxes around 50 with two hits. Melee maxes near 99 with FOUR hits, or about 76 with one hit, and both weapons lack special effects, giving mage the upper hand in a pure class fight.

 

 

 

In a pure mage vs. pure warrior fight, the mage will win assuming both players are of equal intelligence. If the warrior takes his armor off, he will still be hit consistently. Negative defense bonuses are bad, but neutral defense bonuses aren't much better. The warrior can use mage protect and piety, but the mage can use melee protect (if need be) and magic might, thus evening things out. The mage will still have a huge advantage. If we're talking about hybriding, it becomes more complex, which I've stated multiple times. You also mention passive magic resistance. If this is a pure class fight, the warrior does not have a high magic level.

 

 

 

What's stopping the mage being poisoned is the warrior's inability to get close enough to inflict it. 15% less attack is a huge amount. There's a reason that players spend so much money on super sets. Zuriels staff should only be used long enough to hit with one miasmic spell. Even so, we don't even need to bring it into the picture, as doing so would prove magic to be anything BUT underpowered.

 

 

 

And come on... "checkmate?" Please.

[Veritas94]

 

 

 

If the mage+x hybrid is using gear that is advantageous against the hybrid using range armor, the mage+x hybrid will win. If not, then he will lose. It's quite simple. I can argue that range is underpowered because a player in melee armor with a melee weapon and range weapon lost to a player with melee armor, melee weapon, and mage armor. How is that situation any different from your own? We can keep going and argue that melee is underpowered because player A is using this or that armor, etc, etc.

 

 

 

Magic does a lower amount of damage (around 50) than melee (close to 99) because magic stacks special effects on top of that damage. Sure, the warrior can potentially KO the mage, but the problem is getting close to the mage while also dealing with the high damage he's taking, his lowered attack, poison, and the fact that the mage is healing. I wont even go into miasmic spells - that's just overkill.

 

 

 

So how is magic absurdly underpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore. Would you like to continue arguing hybrid combinations? We can do that, I suppose, though I don't see how it's relevant to magic being underpowered.

 

 

 

Magic does 32 max. It is NOT 50. Get that right. The warrior won't have a hard time getting close to the mage if he's not a complete idiot (He can take off his armor, after all, and he gains passive resistance to magic from training his own magic level (ROFL?) and using protect magic prayers. If you mention that this is bad advice and you'd just come up and melee me with your whip, then you'd be the own talking about hybriding. Checkmate. Also, what's stopping the mage being poisoned as well? 15% lowering of attack also isn't all that much. Zuriel's staff last 1 hour, if you're lucky enough not be killed with it in combat, and it costs 1.6m. Good lucky spending 1.6m on an hours worth of combat, excluding the cost of all the spells. All in all, how is magic NOT absurdly overpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore.

 

 

 

Mage maxes around 50 with two hits. Melee maxes near 99 with FOUR hits, or about 76 with one hit, and both weapons lack special effects, giving mage the upper hand in a pure class fight.

 

 

 

In a pure mage vs. pure warrior fight, the mage will win assuming both players are of equal intelligence. If the warrior takes his armor off, he will still be hit consistently. Negative defense bonuses are bad, but neutral defense bonuses aren't much better. The warrior can use mage protect and piety, but the mage can use melee protect (if need be) and magic might, thus evening things out. The mage will still have a huge advantage. If we're talking about hybriding, it becomes more complex, which I've stated multiple times. You also mention passive magic resistance. If this is a pure class fight, the warrior does not have a high magic level.

 

 

 

What's stopping the mage being poisoned is the warrior's inability to get close enough to inflict it. 15% less attack is a huge amount. There's a reason that players spend so much money on super sets. Zuriels staff should only be used long enough to hit with one miasmic spell. Even so, we don't even need to bring it into the picture, as doing so would prove magic to be anything BUT underpowered.

 

 

 

And come on... "checkmate?" Please.

 

 

 

First off, the 50 is TWO hits which land at the same time. You need to take TWO cast turns in order to complete the combo, so that in itself does not count as a 1 hit. Puh-lease. Anyone who doesn't have downs will see the combo coming from a mile away and eat through it. The max hit remains 32. Passive magic resist exists in almost everyone because almost everyone trains magic up to some level. The resistance is enough to be annoyingly effective in causing splashes. With a high level magic, you'll still splash on magic protect + no armor+ passive resistence fairly often. Isn't a max of +74 magic accuracy bonus just wonderful (*sarcasm*)? The mage can easily be poisoned from a special with a dragon dagger which costs 29K. All he needs to do is to splash once. Also, you're not taking into account that there is a grace period for melee between freezes in which they can easily reach you. I agree with you, however, that Zuriel's staff should not be brought into the picture, and for valid reasons I've stated before. Even if you were to have the upper hand in this fight, you wouldn't be able to stop me from teleporting away or running away since the most common places to fight are near banks. This is where the "practical special" part comes in and rains on your parade of mage overpoweredness.

 

 

 

What have we here? It turns out Magic isn't doing so well on the hybrid front or the pure front. What a shame. It can be fixed though, it can be fixed.

[Obtaurian]

 

 

 

First off, the 50 is TWO hits which land at the same time. You need to take TWO cast turns in order to complete the combo, so that in itself does not count as a 1 hit.

 

 

 

And a Dragon Claws special consists of four separate attacks that rely on each other, and can be used twice. After that, the player has to wait two and a half minutes before attempting another special. A mage can use the two hit combo to his hearts content, and the special effects activate every time damage is dealt (excluding smoke and shadow spells.)

 

 

 

Puh-lease. Anyone who doesn't have downs will see the combo coming from a mile away and eat through it.

 

 

 

Then what? The victim is now poisoned, has 15% lower attack, and less food than his opponent. The mage comes out on top.

 

 

 

The max hit remains 32. Passive magic resist exists in almost everyone because almost everyone trains magic up to some level. The resistance is enough to be annoyingly effective in causing splashes. With a high level magic, you'll still splash on magic protect + no armor+ passive resistence fairly often. Isn't a max of +74 magic accuracy bonus just wonderful (*sarcasm*)?

 

 

 

You cried "checkmate" when you assumed that I would introduce hybrids into our pure discussion. You've just done the same, so I can safely disregard this argument.

 

 

 

The mage can easily be poisoned from a special with a dragon dagger which costs 29K. All he needs to do is to splash once.

 

 

 

You've stated over and over again that the warrior is using mage protection prayer. The mage can do the same, in that case. Also, by using the dragon dagger special, the warrior forfeits the use of a much better special attack, so I'm not quite sure why you would want your player in this scenario to be at such a disadvantage. If you're implying that the warrior takes out the dagger simply to poison... then I have no comment. That's silly.

 

 

 

Also, you're not taking into account that there is a grace period for melee between freezes in which they can easily reach you.

 

 

 

And during that time the mage should have moved far enough away to remain safe until the freezing activates again.

 

 

 

I agree with you, however, that Zuriel's staff should not be brought into the picture, and for valid reasons I've stated before.

 

 

 

Cost is not a valid reason. A Zuriel's staff will last a long time if used properly.

 

 

 

Even if you were to have the upper hand in this fight, you wouldn't be able to stop me from teleporting away or running away since the most common places to fight are near banks. This is where the "practical special" part comes in and rains on your parade of mage overpoweredness.

 

 

 

Banks and popular PK'ing spots are for warriors and PJ'ers. I don't see why you'd be looking for a good fight near any of those places. I could also argue that warriors are incapable of preventing mages from teleporting away, and thus they are at a disadvantage. So, for the sake of the discussion, let's assume that both players are there to fight, and not to run.

 

 

 

 

 

What have we here? It turns out Magic isn't doing so well on the hybrid front or the pure front. What a shame. It can be fixed though, it can be fixed.

 

 

 

How so? You have yet to provide a valid, solid argument.

 

 

 

I would also like to address another comment you made a few posts back. You said that Zuriel's staff should not affect range. I agree with you. I'm curious to see what Compfreak thinks about that.

[Veritas94]

 

And a Dragon Claws special consists of four separate attacks that rely on each other, and can be used twice. After that, the player has to wait two and a half minutes before attempting another special. A mage can use the two hit combo to his hearts content, and the special effects activate every time damage is dealt (excluding smoke and shadow spells.)

 

Please, dont compare the speeds of the dragon claw special and the magic combo. There is no comparison. As for the re-usability of the magic combo, I dont think it matters much because youre relying on the element of surprise with special attacks, which you dont have here. The dragon claws are so powerful though, that you dont even need the element of surprise with them anymore. Watch some fights in PvP worlds and then come back and talk to me. By the way, Compfreak dedicated a thread to how overpowered they were. Just letting you know so you can take that into consideration.

 

Then what? The victim is now poisoned, 15% lower attack, and less food than his opponent. The mage comes out on top.

 

Then the meleer runs to the nearest bank, drinks his anti, and grabs some more food so he can own people with overpowered special attacks. You havent done anything except waste your runes and waste a little of his food.

 

You cried "checkmate" when you assumed that I would introduce hybrids into our pure discussion. You've just done the same, so I can safely disregard this argument.

 

Wrong, you cannot disregard this argument. Pure refers to using magic and melee only. Stats do not refer to purity. We were contrasting this pure discussion to a hybriding discussion, remember? The difference is both melee and mager are choosing to stick to their respective attacks, and this makes it a pure magic and melee fight. By pure, I did not mean only trains magic or trains only melee. Perhaps we misunderstood each other.

 

You've stated over and over again that the warrior is using mage protection prayer. The mage can do the same, in that case. Also, by using the dragon dagger special, the warrior forfeits the use of a much better special attack, so I'm not quite sure why you would want your player in this scenario to be at such a disadvantage. If you're implying that the warrior takes out the dagger simply to poison... then I have no comment. That's silly.

 

The dragon dagger only uses ¼ of the special bar, lol. That 1 fourth recharges very quickly. And the idea of poisoning a mage with a dagger is not silly, but thats just my point of view, =). No, the meleer would not be putting himself at a disadvantage in this case.

 

 

 

And during that time the mage should have moved far enough away to remain safe until the freezing activates again.

 

Thats so subjective that I wont even touch it with a 10 foot pole.

 

Cost is not a valid reason. A Zuriel's staff will last a long time if used properly.

 

Cost is absolutely a valid reason. Im looking to improve magic for the vast majority of the runescape population, not just the rich elite. What the hell kind of mindset would that be?

 

Banks and popular PK'ing spots are for warriors and PJ'ers. I don't see why you'd be looking for a good fight near any of those places. I could also argue that warriors are incapable of preventing mages from teleporting away, and thus they are at a disadvantage. So, for the sake of the discussion, let's assume that both players are there to fight, and not to run.

 

I didnt know banks and pking spots are for warrior and PJers only. Thats a ridiculous notion and one which I discard right off the bat. Pking with magic should be advantageous everywhere, just like melee and ranged pking are advantageous everywhere. Ive had plenty of good fights as ranged or melee near banks, and Ive also gotten plenty of good kills. Magic, not so.

 

 

 

How so? You have yet to prove a valid, solid argument.

 

Ive provided plenty, thanks for asking.

 

I would also like to address another comment you made a few posts back. You said that Zuriel's staff should not affect range. I agree with you. I'm curious to see what Compfreak thinks about that.

 

 

 

Im glad we agree on something, =)

[Veritas94]

I've been debating with you for two and half hours, thus far, and nothing about my views of how magic should be improved has changed, sorry to say. I will modify my post a bit to accommodate the complexities of the new arguments, but the underlying structure will remain the same. I might consider changing the title though, to "Things magic desperately needs."

 

 

 

Morningrise, you've tried, and I appreciate your concerns. I'll be back to finish this off as soon as I can. I can't just sit here debating this with you all day; two and a half hours is enough.

[Sir_Kurity]

If you use range armor your still "using" range.

 

 

 

Pretty simple really, if you have a dagger and your using magics and using dagger for the ko. Your still using melee but at the same time using magic.

[Roschinator2]

Here is my suggestion.

 

 

 

I think Jagex should eliminate splashing. In my opinion splashing is another way of saying that you completely missed your target. When an archer pulls back his bow and fires he ALWAYS hits his target, he never completely misses the person. He may hit a zero but he at least hits them. A mage can splash or they can hit their target with the spell but then do zero damage. A meleer never swings his scimitar and just totally misses the guy, it's not like his hand slips and he misses the person, that just doesn't happen. Yes, a meleer can swing and hit a zero but NEVER totally misses their opponent. So I say remove splashing. This will make it so you can't use stun to train effectively but it will make magic much better for things such as pvp. This written by someone who has experience in the skill of magic, me and I have 99.

 

 

 

Thank you for reading

[Sir_Kurity]

Yea i agree with the splash thing, why not.

 

 

 

I hate missing =D.

[compfreak847]

You completely miss the splash vs. miss thing

 

 

 

There are two things in every combat style: A miss, and a hit. If you hit, you can hit anywhere from 0 to your max. If you miss, you hit 0, or in mages cases, splash. Making it so mage couldn't splash would be equivalent to making it so that melee could never hit 0. Mage is already amazingly accurate; compare the times mage splashes vs. the times melee hits 0.

[Obtaurian]

 

And a Dragon Claws special consists of four separate attacks that rely on each other, and can be used twice. After that, the player has to wait two and a half minutes before attempting another special. A mage can use the two hit combo to his hearts content, and the special effects activate every time damage is dealt (excluding smoke and shadow spells.)

 

Please, dont compare the speeds of the dragon claw special and the magic combo. There is no comparison. As for the re-usability of the magic combo, I dont think it matters much because youre relying on the element of surprise with special attacks, which you dont have here. The dragon claws are so powerful though, that you dont even need the element of surprise with them anymore. Watch some fights in PvP worlds and then come back and talk to me. By the way, Compfreak dedicated a thread to how overpowered they were. Just letting you know so you can take that into consideration.

 

 

 

It absolutely matters, because those special effects keep your opponent sweating. Magic doesn't need the element of surprise like melee and range do. Dragon Claws become useless when you can't get close enough to use them. I'm not saying that claws are underpowered, I'm saying that a warrior with claws will lose to a mage with ancients assuming they're on equal footing.

 

 

 

Then what? The victim is now poisoned, 15% lower attack, and less food than his opponent. The mage comes out on top.

 

Then the meleer runs to the nearest bank, drinks his anti, and grabs some more food so he can own people with overpowered special attacks. You havent done anything except waste your runes and waste a little of his food.

 

 

 

But the warrior had to run away, thus proving that he could not stand up to a mage, no?

 

 

 

You cried "checkmate" when you assumed that I would introduce hybrids into our pure discussion. You've just done the same, so I can safely disregard this argument.

 

Wrong, you cannot disregard this argument. Pure refers to using magic and melee only. Stats do not refer to purity. We were contrasting this pure discussion to a hybriding discussion, remember? The difference is both melee and mager are choosing to stick to their respective attacks, and this makes it a pure magic and melee fight. By pure, I did not mean only trains magic or trains only melee. Perhaps we misunderstood each other.

 

 

 

Alright, I'll give you that. Both players are maxed then, one using pure melee one using pure mage?

 

 

 

You've stated over and over again that the warrior is using mage protection prayer. The mage can do the same, in that case. Also, by using the dragon dagger special, the warrior forfeits the use of a much better special attack, so I'm not quite sure why you would want your player in this scenario to be at such a disadvantage. If you're implying that the warrior takes out the dagger simply to poison... then I have no comment. That's silly.

 

The dragon dagger only uses ¼ of the special bar, lol. That 1 fourth recharges very quickly. And the idea of poisoning a mage with a dagger is not silly, but thats just my point of view, =). No, the meleer would not be putting himself at a disadvantage in this case.

 

 

 

But the fact still remains that by wasting a 1/4 of your special bar on a gamble that you might not even poison your opponent, you forfeit the ability to use two dragon claw specials or two AGS specials, which would be much more effective. However, we assume in this case that the warrior gets close enough to the mage to try that, which isn't likely.

 

 

 

And during that time the mage should have moved far enough away to remain safe until the freezing activates again.

 

Thats so subjective that I wont even touch it with a 10 foot pole.

 

 

 

Farcasting is one of magics greatest tools.

 

 

 

Cost is not a valid reason. A Zuriel's staff will last a long time if used properly.

 

Cost is absolutely a valid reason. Im looking to improve magic for the vast majority of the runescape population, not just the rich elite. What the hell kind of mindset would that be?

 

 

 

And I'm looking to improve melee for the vast majority of the runescape population, not just the rich elite who can afford Godswords and Dragon Claws. You spend money to have an advantage. The same applies to a Zuriel's staff as much as it applies to Godswords.

 

 

 

Banks and popular PK'ing spots are for warriors and PJ'ers. I don't see why you'd be looking for a good fight near any of those places. I could also argue that warriors are incapable of preventing mages from teleporting away, and thus they are at a disadvantage. So, for the sake of the discussion, let's assume that both players are there to fight, and not to run.

 

I didnt know banks and pking spots are for warrior and PJers only. Thats a ridiculous notion and one which I discard right off the bat. Pking with magic should be advantageous everywhere, just like melee and ranged pking are advantageous everywhere. Ive had plenty of good fights as ranged or melee near banks, and Ive also gotten plenty of good kills. Magic, not so.

 

 

 

But they AREN'T advantageous everywhere! Pit a mage and a warrior against each other in Lletya and see what happens. The beauty of PVP worlds is that certain classes are better suited for certain terrains. It's something that the old wilderness sort of lacked. I would personally NEVER look for a fight near a bank. I know that I'm likely to get PJ'd, and I'm smart enough to avoid that.

 

 

 

How so? You have yet to prove a valid, solid argument.

 

Ive provided plenty, thanks for asking.

 

 

 

None that haven't been shot down.

 

 

 

I would also like to address another comment you made a few posts back. You said that Zuriel's staff should not affect range. I agree with you. I'm curious to see what Compfreak thinks about that.

 

 

 

Im glad we agree on something, =)

 

 

 

Comments in italics.

 

 

 

Since we're now contrasting pure fights to hybrid fights, I figured we should establish the scenario.

 

 

 

Player 1

 

Warrior

 

Maxed stats

 

The best gear possible (excluding PvP armor), so Barrows or Bandos.

 

The best weapons possible, so claws, AGS, whip, defender, DFS.

 

 

 

Player 2

 

Mage

 

Maxed stats

 

We could do the max mage gear, but I think that's a bit overkill, so we'll go with full Ahrim's w/ staff. Sounds reasonable, yes?

 

Ancients.

 

 

 

You've stated that an intelligent warrior will remove his armor to get rid of negative magic defense. We can assume that he now has a bit of magic defense due to wielding a fury, fire cape, etc.

 

 

 

You've also stated that a warrior will patiently eat while frozen. When thawed, I assume that you intend for this warrior to charge the mage with a KO weapon?

 

 

 

So here's the situation: The warrior charges, the mages freezes him and casts shadow/smoke spells, which also lower the warrior's strength by 5% every time Ahrim's set effect activates. The warrior begins to eat as the mage continues to lower his strength. When the warrior thaws, he charges with claws/AGS. Here's where it gets tricky. If we assume the mage was farcasting, the warrior will simply freeze again. If the mage was close enough for the warrior to land two specials, the mage leaves unscathed, as the warrior had an extremely low strength level and reduced attack.

 

 

 

What if we take away the Ahrim's staff and throw in a Master Wand and Arcane Spirit Shield? Now the mage has huge melee defense and is extremely accurate.

 

 

 

I don't see how this situation could be any worse for the warrior.

[Roschinator2]

You completely miss the splash vs. miss thing

 

 

 

There are two things in every combat style: A miss, and a hit. If you hit, you can hit anywhere from 0 to your max. If you miss, you hit 0, or in mages cases, splash. Making it so mage couldn't splash would be equivalent to making it so that melee could never hit 0. Mage is already amazingly accurate; compare the times mage splashes vs. the times melee hits 0.

 

 

 

Did you even read what I wrote?? Magic can hit and do zero damage.

 

Don't reject what I said if you didn't even read it.

[compfreak847]

You completely miss the splash vs. miss thing

 

 

 

There are two things in every combat style: A miss, and a hit. If you hit, you can hit anywhere from 0 to your max. If you miss, you hit 0, or in mages cases, splash. Making it so mage couldn't splash would be equivalent to making it so that melee could never hit 0. Mage is already amazingly accurate; compare the times mage splashes vs. the times melee hits 0.

 

 

 

Did you even read what I wrote?? Magic can hit and do zero damage.

 

Don't reject what I said if you didn't even read it.

 

Gratz. That's precisely what I said. And MELEE can hit and do 0 damage. Amazing! :roll: